Comics Beat: An Interview with Heidi MacDonald About Comics Journalism and The State of The Comic Industry

Comics Beat: An Interview with Heidi MacDonald About Comics Journalism and The State of The Comic Industry - The Short Box Podcast Ep. 410

 
[00:00:00] Intro music plays

[00:01:17] Badr: Yo, Short Box Nation, welcome back to the podcast. Thanks for joining us. If you're new, welcome to the show. My name is Badr, and this is the Short Box Podcast, the comic book talk show that brings you the best conversations about comics and pop culture inspired by comics.

[00:01:34] Badr: This is episode 410. And today we'll be talking of Heidi MacDonald, an award winning author and editor and one of the most decorated and well respected comic journalists and critics in the industry with over 20 years of experience. Now, you might be asking, you know, why Heidi? Why today? Well, there's been a lot of gloom and doom when it comes to the current and future state of the comic industry lately.

[00:01:58] Badr: And it feels like you can't escape it wherever you go, whether that be on Twitter or Reddit or the various op eds out there, or even just in comic shops. You find yourself kind of, um, that conversation kind of just finding you, following you like a black cloud. And I'll be the first to admit that some of that energy has found its way into some of our recent episodes, especially when talking about...

[00:02:17] Badr: The current state of the MCU and things like that. So I figured if there's anyone that could set us straight with facts and give us reassurance on how the industry is really doing, it's gotta be one of the medium's biggest advocates and best subject matter experts. Aside from being an Eisner nominated writer, Heidi MacDonald is the editor in chief of the comics industry news blog, The Beat, aka Comics Beat.

[00:02:39] Badr: It's the news blog of comics culture. It's an award winning website that has lived up to its name. Since launching in 2004, and it's been such a staple to the industry that it was added to the Library of Congress's historical archives in 2017 and named one of the 25 best blogs by Time Magazine. Comics beat aside, Heidi has edited comics for Disney, DC Comics, Vertigo, HarperCollins, and Z2 on titles such as The Lion King, Scooby Doo, Gargoyles, Swamp Thing, and Why the Last Man.

[00:03:11] Badr: She's also served as an editor and writer at Publishers Weekly. And you can still hear her every week on the Publisher Weekly Comics World podcast. And if you're a fan of comic art and history and artist spotlights, I highly recommend finding yourself a copy of her book, Secret Teachings of a Comic Book Master, The Art Alfredo Alcala.

[00:03:29] Badr: Now before we officially bring Heidi on, allow me to give a big shout out to our sponsor, Gotham City Limit. It's Jacksville's premier location for comic books, collectibles, toys, and more. And even if you don't live in Jacks physically, you can still take your comic shopping experience to the limit by shopping their online store at GothamCityLimit.

[00:03:47] Badr: com. Now, if you do live in Jax, by the time this episode comes out, there'll be in the middle of their big, uh, Thanksgiving week, super sale event. So if you've been looking for an excuse or a reason to finally pull the trigger on that omnibus or that incensive variant, or, or one of those action figures or statues they've got in the shop.

[00:04:05] Badr: Now is the time to get your holiday comic shopping in. Spread the wealth, and if you don't mind, go ahead and pick me something up while you're at it, alright? If you pick me something up, I'll send you my address. Let's make it happen, alright? Alright, now that we got the bills paid, Shortbox Nation, without further ado, let's welcome Heidi McDonald to the show.

[00:04:21] Badr: Heidi, welcome. How are you doing

[00:04:24] Heidi MacDonald: today? I'm good, thanks, Bader. Thanks for having me on. Wow, thanks everyone. Not accustomed to hearing... Such accolades. So many accolades. So, uh, I'm an accolade in my own mind.

[00:04:39] Badr: Heidi, by the time this episode, uh, will come out to the public, it'll be Wednesday, November 22nd, which is, you know, local comic shop day.

[00:04:47] Badr: And I know you're based out of New York, so the options are, are plentiful for you when it comes to like awesome comic shops, but what comic shop do you call home? Like, where does your pull list reside at?

[00:04:56] Heidi MacDonald: Well, I just lost my local, which was sort of getting in with the gloom and doom and, you know, that was definitely a gloom and doom moment, certainly for me.

[00:05:05] Heidi MacDonald: And I mean, it was right up the street from where I lived. I mean, in my neighborhood of Kips Bay, uh, and I'm great friends with Ron Hill and Nick who ran the store. So I was very sad to leave them. So, so I haven't actually had to go buy comics. Since then, but, um, I guess when I do go, uh, I will go to Midtown because it is the closest to me.

[00:05:25] Heidi MacDonald: Although, I was walking by Forbidden Planet the other night, or actually last night, over on Broadway, and I was like, Oh, I haven't been in there. So I don't, I don't know. I guess I'm, you know, playing comic shop Tinder right now. Like, I'm not sure, you know. Who I'm going to end up with. You're a comic shop free agent.

[00:05:43] Heidi MacDonald: That's good. Yeah. Right. Yeah. But I mean, listen, you're right. I mean, all of the stores are fantastic. I love the guys at Forbidden Planet. I love Midtown. Um, you know, I wish I was closer to anyone comics over in Queens. It's a little far field. I'm not going to go to another borough to get my comics. Um, but, um, you're, you know, there's quite a robust comic shop culture still here in New York city.

[00:06:05] Heidi MacDonald: So yes, I'm very blessed by that. And

[00:06:07] Badr: what does your, your pull list look like? Like, what is Heidi and Donald picking up? Well, I

[00:06:11] Heidi MacDonald: don't have a pull list because, you know, I'm a journalist and I get all the, the, the, you know, the watermarked PDFs. Talk about it. So, yeah, I mean, honestly, I ran out of room for physical comics a long time ago.

[00:06:26] Heidi MacDonald: I just have no room for them whatsoever. And, you know, there are a lot more comics being published now, not necessarily periodical comics, but graphic novels. Oh, yeah. And I get a lot of those in the mail and, you know, I do live in a small New York apartment and, uh, you know, the stately beat manner is, uh, metaphorical sadly.

[00:06:44] Heidi MacDonald: And, um, you know, space is a priority. Yeah, there is. So I'm very, very happy that we have digital comics right now. So, um, but, you know, I read, I'll be honest. I read mostly graphic novels. And, um, I'm not really up, I don't read a lot of periodicals. I read them when I, when, when called upon for, you know, news writing purposes.

[00:07:06] Heidi MacDonald: Um, but, uh, you know, I prefer to have the big, satisfying chunk.

[00:07:11] Badr: What would you say was the last, uh, you know, if you don't mind me asking, what was the last couple of graphic novels that you've read recently that, like, really left an impression on you? Oh, boy. I know it's putting you on

[00:07:21] Heidi MacDonald: the spot. It is putting me on the spot.

[00:07:24] Heidi MacDonald: Well, I was reading, um, Okay, I was reading Come Home, India by Jim Terry. This was a little while ago, but it's such a good book. It's a, it's an autobiography, but it's just so well done and just so atmospheric and, um, really, um, I don't know. I just really connected with it. Uh, but, you know, I gave some books to a child and the child 6 year old child and the 6 year old child was very in cap.

[00:07:48] Heidi MacDonald: Very captivated by comics and she's quite precocious. It was like, I never read a graphic novel before. She actually said that, but I read her Kitty Sweet Tooth and she loved it. And I really, uh, it's written by a very good friend of mine, Abby Denson. I will throw that in there with art by Uta Maru, who's a Japanese artist.

[00:08:05] Heidi MacDonald: But, um, it was really great to see it through the eyes of a child. And, um, you know, I started reading comics when I was a very small kid and, um, just became captivated and it was really nice to see, uh, this, this child become captivated by them again. So, and I'll say this, I don't have enough time to read comics, you know, I'm so busy writing about them and trying to save the industry.

[00:08:30] Heidi MacDonald: Yeah, I need to, you know, I'm, I'm halfway through the new. Um, Julian Tamaki, Mariko Tamaki, Roeming. I need to finish it. It's probably drawn in quarterly and it's about. Uh, for girls who come to or 3 girls who come to New York City for the 1st time, and they learn a lot of lessons. So I had a lot to relate to, but I just love the Tamaki's.

[00:08:54] Heidi MacDonald: They're just so great. I mean, I say Tamaki's, they are cousins, but you can say the Tamaki's, but, um, they are just geniuses. Mariko is, you know, she won the Best Writer Eisner Award a few years ago, very richly deserved, and Jillian is an incredible storyteller. So, Really,

[00:09:09] Badr: really good stuff, you know, on the, on the topic of graphic novels, you know, I'm kind of in this, not, not the same boat, but similar boat where I spend more time talking about comics and doing the interviews and the podcast that it really is a challenge to find time to like read as much as I used to when I was like, you know, not doing the podcast or whatnot, but I do find that whenever I do have time, usually late at night, you know, when I'm in bed and I just need to wind down, I'll, I'll tend to go towards graphic novels because I know there's a, there's a finish in the end.

[00:09:39] Badr: And the, I guess the diversity in range and, um, you know, uh, topics and categories and genres that you get out of graphic novels have really been on point lately, like especially in the nonfiction or autobiographical side, autobiographical side, like, uh, like the Miles Davis, uh, uh, graphic novel that just came out.

[00:09:57] Badr: I've got that on my reading queue, but I'm currently reading like this Michael Jordan, Um, non fiction graphic novel that, that came out. I don't got the name here in front of me, but you know, like I've really, those have really started to, to pique my interest are those type of offerings, maybe outside of like, you know, the usual capes and cows that I'm, I'm accustomed to reading.

[00:10:15] Heidi MacDonald: There's a lot of really great biographical comics out there. There's also a lot of. Mediocre biographical comics. Um, the thing is that probably about 10 years ago, I'd say within the past 10 years, um, you know, comics became much more. Acceptable for educational purposes, so that, uh, they were used school curriculums for.

[00:10:39] Heidi MacDonald: For, you know, middle grade and on up and so publishers started doing a lot more biographies because there was more, you know, they had the secondary educational market for them. And the funny thing is that so many of them are European. So I think that Michael Jordan one you're talking about is French, right?

[00:10:57] Badr: You know what? I think you might be honest. Let me try to pull it up. I can. Okay, there it is. It's called Michael Jordan Bull on Parade by Santiago, uh, by Wilfred, Wilfred Santiago. Oh,

[00:11:07] Heidi MacDonald: Wilfred Santiago. Yes. Yes. He's um, I think he's a Spanish artist, I believe, but he is published mostly in France. So, um, yeah, I interviewed him a few years ago at...

[00:11:19] Heidi MacDonald: Somewhere. I'm sorry. It just, I, I remember people, but not

[00:11:25] Badr: places necessarily. I'm not holding anything against you. You've been in this industry for, you know, 20 plus years. I can only imagine like the names and faces rattling around in your head. I was looking at the Comics Beat website and it's got you credited for, yeah, it's got you credited for 8, 872 posts to your name.

[00:11:43] Badr: How many articles would you say that you've written not just for the beat But maybe just like a ballpark number in total about comics like do you have a number in your head?

[00:11:50] Heidi MacDonald: Well, I'll tell you I think I don't know if that was I actually have two logins on the beat Oh, wow, so that was probably my most recent one So there's probably another 8, 000 on the other one because I had to switch halfway through because of various reasons So yeah, it's in five digits Um, yeah.

[00:12:07] Heidi MacDonald: I mean, I don't know. I mean, I've written most of my articles for The Beat, but I've written quite a few for other places. So, you know, I, I, I, I, Thousands, thousands of articles. I mean, I'm constantly Googling something and then the only thing that comes up was what I wrote. So, which is a really, you know, at first you're like, that's awesome.

[00:12:26] Heidi MacDonald: And then you're like, Oh no, where do I look this up? But, uh, yes, I've written and I believe me, I do not remember. Sometimes I go back and I was like, I wrote that.

[00:12:36] Badr: Do you ever like revisit old stuff or are you, or are you at a point in your career where it's like always forward, you know, onto the next day?

[00:12:41] Badr: No, I mean, you.

[00:12:43] Heidi MacDonald: I have to, I do, I do look, read some of my old things to see to make sure I'm not repeating myself because I do there tend to be certain topics that come up over and over again. You know, I just, I do have my own little anecdotes that I know that I rely on quite a bit and I repeat them over and over because they're, you know, they're like the primal scene for me.

[00:13:03] Heidi MacDonald: They're just like these moments when it all crystallized. And it doesn't need to really go beyond that in my mind, but um, so I have to, you know, I, I try to make sure I don't repeat exactly, but I do find I'm quite consistent, Bader. I do find that I, you know, if I was thinking of something, I find that I probably hit on the same, the same point, you know, the last 10 years ago when I wrote about it.

[00:13:26] Badr: I guess when you consider, like. Your and this might be even a put you putting you on spotlight even bigger or even a bigger ass But when you consider like your career and and you know All of the interviews and in the articles that you've written Are there any that might stand maybe a few inches taller than the rest like if you had to make a Heidi McDonald, you know Mount Rushmore of your journalistic highlights like what are some where does your mind like immediately go?

[00:13:53] Heidi MacDonald: Well, that's a great question and you separate them into 2 categories. You know, there's the ones where you're just like, oh, my God, I can't believe I'm talking to this person. Right? And then there's the 1 where you're like, you know, I really did a good job on that. And, um, I haven't made a fearless inventory of whether there's any crossover there.

[00:14:17] Heidi MacDonald: Uh, which there couldn't be, but I will say that I, um, my favorite interview of all time was actually for the podcast and it was with William Gibson, the science fiction author, who's my favorite living author. And, um, so just to get to interview him, it's like, incredible and it was also just from Pokemon go.

[00:14:38] Heidi MacDonald: So I got to ask him about that and, you know, talking about Pokemon, go with a guy who wrote Neuromancer is pretty much as good as it gets. Um, right. So that was definitely the, and then he did the funny thing is it was at San Diego Comic Con. So I believe earlier in the day I had breakfast with Margaret, Margaret Atwood.

[00:14:57] Heidi MacDonald: And so, um, it was quite a day. It was really a hell of a day. And, uh, that it could only happen at San Diego Comic Con really. Um, so what is my best interview? Well, a lot of times they're newsy ones where I get the 1st crack at somebody with some breaking news. Um, there was 1 recently with the. With the people who, uh, did behind distillery, which is a new publisher.

[00:15:29] Heidi MacDonald: I mean, people, they're, they're friends. I mean, it's hard for me not to have a personal relationship with people in the industry just because I've been doing it for so long and you just see the same people over and over again. Right? So, Um, but anyway, Chip Mosher and David Steinberger. I thought that was a good interview because a lot of people quoted it.

[00:15:47] Heidi MacDonald: You know, I had an interview with Axel Alonso when he first got the job at Marvel as editor in chief. Oh, wow. And, you know, we had worked together at Vertigo, so we were friends, and I had... Um, you know, requested, could I interview him? They're like, okay, sure. You could do the intro, you know, the debut interview.

[00:16:06] Heidi MacDonald: Right. And I do believe that is the only time he was ever interviewed as editor in chief. Like he did, he did like, you know, axles cup ax to grind or whatever. I made that up by the way. Um, you know, he did like some writing for CBR and he did, he did. You know, interviews, but they're more like, you know, what's coming up and then this new reboot or whatever.

[00:16:29] Heidi MacDonald: I think it was the only time he did an interview that he was just like answering questions. And I do notice that it's cited on Wikipedia quite a bit just because it was the only 1 that he did. So that was really, you know, a great, a great opportunity to talk to him. And, um, I think when I first started doing the beat 20 years ago, um, I did some really good interviews with people like Eddie Campbell and Dan Klaus and Gilbert Hernandez, and, you know, just some of my favorite cartoonists.

[00:17:02] Heidi MacDonald: So. Um, I guess another, I'll just say 1 more because it's interesting. I've never way, way, way back in the day. I did a very long interview with George Perez for the spotlight on him. That fan of graphics published. And I mean, I didn't even know what I was doing. I would, if I were to read this. I would just die of embarrassment.

[00:17:22] Heidi MacDonald: I'm sure. And, you know, I sat there and quizzed him for like two hours and I was just like a kid who didn't know anything, but you know, a lot of people have said they really enjoyed that interview or they, you know, a lot of people have read that book and enjoy the book. So I hope I did my job and I hope I did right by George.

[00:17:38] Heidi MacDonald: I wish I had been able to do. Another interview with him, you know, before, uh, sadly he passed away, but, um, you know, I'd never got the chance. So at least I got that chance to do it that one time.

[00:17:50] Badr: Do you have a, uh, do you have like a white whale interview that you're still like, still after? Is there someone in the industry, whether it be comics or just like, it's pop culture and, you know, writing in general that you're still like.

[00:18:02] Badr: When I get that, I'm good. That's the one

[00:18:04] Heidi MacDonald: I want. Oh, wow. Yeah. Oof.

[00:18:08] Badr: Cause I imagine that list has got to be short considering, you know, how long you've been doing this. Like it's got to be a short list.

[00:18:13] Heidi MacDonald: Yeah. I mean. Yes. Okay. Well, there's a couple. Oh, please. Give it to me. Cool. Uh, well, the one is, um, this again, it's like, who would I nerd out over and then who would I really love to get to sit down and talk, shop with?

[00:18:31] Heidi MacDonald: Um, so the first is like just Carl Urban because I love Carl Urban. I'll just say that and I, right. And I mean, he is also, I mean, I've seen him talk, you know, he, he comes to all the cons. He's so charming. He's so funny. Everybody, you know, I mean, he's been drinking with my friends. He is definitely a legend.

[00:18:54] Heidi MacDonald: And, um, so I, and then when the boys first came out, there was supposed to be a junket that I was supposed to go do it. I never got to go to it. So I'm waiting for that chance to come back. Um, but I'm sure it will happen because it just does these things all, they all, they all come around. Um, you know, one of the, uh, great white whales that I wanted to talk to was way back in the day when I worked for Disney Adventures, and that was Jackie Chan.

[00:19:17] Heidi MacDonald: So that was, you know, really great. So, as far as comics industry people that I would really like to sit down and talk to, um, I guess. Um, AWA would be, or Jji Ito right now, uh, like Nichi or awa. But, um, you know, it's hard because of the language barrier to have a a, a really spontaneous conversation when there's, when there's a big language difference.

[00:19:46] Heidi MacDonald: I. I did interview Ano, who is, uh, mangaka and she's married to, I'm gonna mess up his name. He's the guy who did Neon Genesis of Gelian. Okay. So like this, you know, like Travis and Taylor of comics, you know, of Manga Anime. Uh, I got to interview her. That was really incredible. So, um, yeah, but as far as in Eng English, who would I like to, um.

[00:20:19] Heidi MacDonald: Uh, boy, I don't know. That's a really great question. I mean, I'd love to, I tell you, if you're listening, he's not, but I'll tell you who I'd like to interview right now is Mark Miller from Millar, right?

[00:20:32] Badr: I can imagine why. It's, and I think it ties into a big reason why we had John. But I,

[00:20:37] Heidi MacDonald: I mean, listen, I know Mark quite well, you know, I mean, we've been, Known each other for a long time.

[00:20:43] Heidi MacDonald: In fact, there was one night at con where, um, me, Mark, Alex Ross. And one other commerce journalist sat there and talked for like an hour. It was just like the end of the night, the bar was closed and we just sat there and shot the breeze for like an hour. It was amazing. I wish I remembered more of that conversation.

[00:21:02] Heidi MacDonald: Um, so, but yeah, I would love to talk to Mark Miller now because, um, he obviously is, is, has a lot to say. And I mean, I'm not saying I disagree. Actually, he has some, I mean, Mark's super smart and has some really great points. So it wouldn't even be like, uh, how can you possibly think Robert F. Kennedy is sane?

[00:21:21] Heidi MacDonald: Cause he's not obviously, but, um, you know, I mean, I, I, Mark had one of those great moments that I've actually quoted many, many times in my work is when he told me. That it's only when people are desperate in, in comics that they really innovate and, which is true in all media. So I think we're reaching that point.

[00:21:41] Heidi MacDonald: So Mark actually has some very, very, uh, very, very insightful comments to make about comics. And so I think it would be a lively conversation.

[00:21:51] Badr: I'm here for all of that. And, and you know what? Hopefully Mark Millar is listening. All right. Um, do you miss the days of, of being an editor in chief and being on that side of comics?

[00:22:00] Badr: Cause it sounds like just the, the, you know, before we even got started, you were mentioning talking to Greg Wiesman prior to this. And even, you know, you brought up a few times the different titles you've worked on in the past. Like, do you miss being an editor in chief in comics?

[00:22:13] Heidi MacDonald: Well, I was never an editor in chief.

[00:22:14] Heidi MacDonald: I was just an editor. But, um, uh, yes, short answer is yes. Now, uh, there was a long period where, you know, I worked at DC Comics for three years, and that was the longest 30 years of my life. Uh, some of it, I mean, it's just very, very, very intense to edit monthly periodical comics for Marvel or DC. And so it was a very, very, um, taxing time and it really burned me out on editing comics.

[00:22:43] Heidi MacDonald: I will say that for a long time, but I got back, you know, my last year was the last year. Yeah. 2022 I edited a, uh, some stuff for Z2. I did a Cheech and Chong graphic novel. Oh, cool. And I really, really enjoyed it. I, I think I miss, I miss editing comics now, just because it's not my, I, I wouldn't do it as. my life or death.

[00:23:03] Heidi MacDonald: I wouldn't start a publisher that was, you know, Heidi's Comics or whatever, but I don't mind taking on a project here and there because there's so many great creators now. There's so many wonderful, wonderful people and getting to work with them is just, you know, wonderful. I mean, it's, it's the best part of comics is getting to work with so many creative people.

[00:23:28] Heidi MacDonald: And so, um, you know, I'm at a point now. Where, um, I could just respect the process and it not be this matter of life and death, which it was when I worked at DC,

[00:23:42] Badr: so. I guess for the, for the layman out there, like, what, what, what is the noticeable or major differences between, between being an editor in chief at, you know, for, for Comics Beat and covering comic news and interviews versus, you know, being an editor for, you know, a comic publisher?

[00:23:58] Badr: Like, is there any overlap or just, you know, is it completely different worlds?

[00:24:03] Heidi MacDonald: I would say aside from having to have a good knowledge of grammar, there's almost nothing in common and, uh, you know, when you're a journalist, I mean, you have to have good grammar. You have to have an ability to, um, find salient facts, be able to back them up, be able to research.

[00:24:25] Heidi MacDonald: Um, also, I mean, for what the beat does is a daily daily website, you have to have a. Kind of an idea for what is newsworthy, you have to be able to, you know, write good headlines, you have to have some knowledge of what readers are going to want to see, or, you know, how to get readers to read stuff, um, working with publicists and challenging, you know, that, but it's, it's not that different from being a journalist in any other field, you could do it as a comic book editor, as a comics editor, a graphic novel editor, um, is a really, really, really unique skill set and.

[00:25:00] Heidi MacDonald: Um, you need to I, whenever people ask me about how to, you know, breaking in as an editor, I say, you got to understand this job is. Probably 50 percent psychiatrist, 30 percent story editor and 20%, um, 20 percent project manager. And a lot of people think it's like 50 percent story editor and, you know, 20 percent psychiatrist.

[00:25:28] Heidi MacDonald: Uh, in fact, one of my, I don't want to say the word proteges, but just somebody who I've really watched. I don't, I don't have any protégés, but I, I, as somebody who I've really watched and you know, grow through the industry and is now a very successful editor. And when I first told them that, they kind of were like, really?

[00:25:45] Heidi MacDonald: I don't think so. And now they're like, you were a hundred percent right, Heidi.

[00:25:50] Badr: Where, where's the psychiatrist part come in? Is it just like, is it just dealing, you know what they say? I'm thinking about this Erykah Badu quote, uh, when she talks about being an artist and she says, you know, I'm an artist, I'm sensitive about my shit.

[00:26:01] Badr: Is that where the psychiatrist part comes in, is just dealing with, you know, you know, creative people and, you know, uh, just the, the emotions they have regarding their work and stuff. Absolutely.

[00:26:11] Heidi MacDonald: People are very, very sensitive about their work. And, um, and the, in the, in the case of certainly, uh, I will say that, that the psychiatrist, that, you know, just being a people manager, you know, when I say psychiatrist, I just mean a people manager, I might be even more.

[00:26:29] Heidi MacDonald: Exacerbated again for the, for the periodical comics industry, because you, you get into. I mean, there's fewer and fewer monthly comics that have a team that goes on for years, but when you do get into that, it's a real marriage. It's a real relationship in that you are talking to this person month in and month out.

[00:26:48] Heidi MacDonald: It, it, it's just, it's, it's a very, um, you know, it's a, it's a very ongoing relationship. And especially just in terms of deadlines, you need to be able to understand what a person can do and what a person can't do. And it's the whole team, you know, it's the whole. Um, I mean, the production schedule of comics has changed a lot since I was now, you know, it's all digital, you know, you know, in my day, you had to wait for the FedEx to come, you know, as, as crazy as that sounds, but, you know, it's just like deadlines.

[00:27:17] Heidi MacDonald: What are people capable of? Everybody burns out, you know, everyone burns out on, on, on repetitive tasks. And I think the, you know, it's the people manager comes in for graphic novels when you're working on a project that is 120 pages or 160 pages. I mean, that's going to be at least a year of a person's life.

[00:27:42] Heidi MacDonald: Sometimes it's a lot longer than a year. So again, you're developing, you know, sometimes you just send people off and they just, they just do the work, but other people really need to have someone to bounce ideas off or to, to have that. Some people want the check in, believe it or not. Some people really want an editor to check in on them.

[00:27:59] Heidi MacDonald: And, you know, sometimes you don't. I mean, it's not like you want to be the busybody. I actually know some editors who were busybodies and their creators came to really resent the fact that they were always hanging out and talking to them and, and, you know, wanted to be their buddy buddy. So it's, that's what I'm saying.

[00:28:16] Heidi MacDonald: It's like every relationship is different. Every creative process is different. Every, uh, you know, every cartoonist, every writer, every artist has a different creative process. And as the editor, you must. Figure out how to create an environment where they can do their best work and feel the, feel secure, feel confident about it.

[00:28:39] Badr: Very well said. And I guess when you consider all of the different creative teams, uh, in your time, you know, working as an editor for Disney, Z2 and DC, is there any one, whether it be creative team or project that maybe taught you something or, you know, just stands out and in your mind, or you've got, you know, maybe a sentimental.

[00:28:59] Badr: Attachments.

[00:29:02] Heidi MacDonald: Well, there's a lot of lessons. You learn. Of course, I loved working with Brian cave on and Pia Guerra. And why the last man? Um, and I loved working with Brian. I worked with him on swamp thing before that. And I like to think we had a really great relationship. And, um, so that was a lot of fun.

[00:29:19] Heidi MacDonald: It was a lot of fun. Because, uh, I don't think an editor should be a really overbearing presence for any creator. I think your job is to let that creator do their best work. Not tell the story that you want them to tell. And, um, you know, I think Brian is a very talented writer and it was a pleasure. Um, you know, there's another person I work with and back in the day at Disney.

[00:29:42] Heidi MacDonald: And now I'm forgetting what he wrote. I think he wrote. Pepper Ann for me. Remember Pepper Ann? I don't know how old you are, but surely some listeners out there are old enough to remember these 90s cartoons like Pepper Ann. Uh, and that was Scott Gimple.

[00:30:01] Badr: I'm sorry for interrupting. Pepper Ann was my shit as a kid.

[00:30:04] Badr: I'm 34 years old, so this was like prime years to watch this on Disney Plus. Or not Disney Plus, sorry. Disney, like the channel, the cable channel after school. No, Pepper Ann was the shit.

[00:30:15] Heidi MacDonald: Yeah. Right? Right? It was so good. Recess? Right? Recess? That was my favorite. Recess is like

[00:30:21] Badr: So good! It might be my favorite cartoon of all time.

[00:30:24] Badr: Like, Hustler Kid, uh, You know, like, that's what I envisioned, you know, like, my school life was supposed to be. It was clearly not that at all, but Did you have a hand in Recess at

[00:30:34] Heidi MacDonald: all? I mean, I didn't I mean, we did the comics. You know? I mean, I loved it. Oh, my God. I I The minute The minute I got the Spinelli.

[00:30:43] Heidi MacDonald: Oh, Spinelli was my favorite. I just adored her. I believe, wasn't Shit, uh Pam Seagal, who did her voice,

[00:30:49] Badr: I believe. So

[00:30:50] Heidi MacDonald: let me look it up. Yeah. Uh, because then, you know, Pam Seagal had been, uh, well, you know what? That's one of my, that's my Holy grail interview, because I'll tell you why. It's like way back in the day, I worked for her aunt.

[00:31:09] Heidi MacDonald: Lynn Siegel at the Hollywood Reporter. And, um, Pam was just this kid, I mean, literally just a kid who would come into the office all the time. And, um, I mean, I'm sure she doesn't remember me at all, but, uh, I would love to be, you know, I was just like, Oh, she's coming in and she's hanging out and she's kind of annoying us while we work.

[00:31:34] Heidi MacDonald: And then I was like, Oh, she became a voice actor. And then I was like, Spinelli. Oh, she did Spinelli. This is so cool. You know? So I was, I was actually advocating then to try to get an interview, but I never, I never could. So now, of course, she's so successful with Emmys. That's really, again, I love seeing people go on and be successful.

[00:31:51] Heidi MacDonald: But yes, Recess Pepper Ann. So as I say, with Pepper Ann, this guy, Scott Gimple wrote some stories. And so he was great. I mean, he wrote some of the best scripts I've ever seen. It was just an amazing. Working with him, he was so talented, such a good writer. And, um, then he, uh, and then it's, it's so funny because I moved away, I was living in L.

[00:32:12] Heidi MacDonald: A. and then I moved to New York. And I would come back to L. A. like a couple times a year. And I would, you know, call up writers and take them to lunch. And so I took Scott to lunch at this really fancy sushi place. That's still the best sushi I ever had. And, um, one of the Olsen twins was like right next to us.

[00:32:30] Heidi MacDonald: I guess this was a celebrity hangout and we didn't know it. So it was just really funny. Um, anyway, so Scott has gone on to be the showrunner for the walking dead. And, um, like he's the whole head of the whole walking dead empire, right? And so I'm not surprised because he's really great. I guess he would be the other, you know, Holy grail for me to and I've actually tried to interview him several times, but I've never managed to get through.

[00:32:57] Heidi MacDonald: And which is funny because Robert Kirkman I've known forever and, um, I mean, I've interviewed him several times and I listen. I love talking to Robert. Don't get me wrong. It's great. And, you know, I see him at the con and he says, hi. So, you know. Yeah. Uh, which is nice. It's nice that he remembers the little people, you know, but I, I would love to, I would love, you know, this, these Disney adventures years.

[00:33:20] Heidi MacDonald: I mean, I, like I told you, I just talked to Greg Weissman, who's the. I mean, he really is the creator of the gargoyles legend, you know, the, the custodian of the girls. And so it was really great. I hadn't talked to him in 30 years. So I got to, he was on my, my bucket list. It's nice, you know, 25 years later, almost 30 years later to circle back.

[00:33:40] Heidi MacDonald: To some of these projects and see where everybody went to and where everybody, you know, ended up and and myself included, I guess,

[00:33:50] Badr: how do you brought up burnout and I was curious how you avoid burnout and maybe specifically, like, how do you keep things? Fresh having worked in, you know, comics, like, like you said, for going, you know, more than 20 years.

[00:34:02] Badr: Like, how do you keep, how do you keep it fresh for yourself? You know, I was looking through your, your Twitter and you know, not surprisingly, you keep, you know, you have a, you keep your finger on the pulse of a lot of pop culture. You brought up, you know, Travis and, uh, Taylor, I think you also retweeted something about Andre 3000 flute album.

[00:34:18] Badr: Like. I guess in addition to that, sorry for the compound question, like what else are you into? Well,

[00:34:23] Heidi MacDonald: um, I mean, I'm definitely into baseball. I mean, that is, uh, my, my great, um, you know, weakness is baseball. My great pastime is baseball just because it completely, I just, I love the Mets. I'm a Mets fan and we have the best announcers.

[00:34:37] Heidi MacDonald: And you know, it's funny when you said What I was talking earlier about repeating myself. It's like, you listen to these guys, they do 162 games. I mean, they like Gary, Keith and Ron sometimes. Well, they don't do all 162 even, but Gary does 130 games. You know, Keith does 90 games. Ron does 90 games. The games are two and a half hours long, and yet they never repeat

[00:35:00] Badr: themselves.

[00:35:01] Badr: You know, I've really gotten into lately, um, watching, you know, watching sports like more than I've ever had in my life. And as someone who's been podcasting for, you know, going on 12, 13 years now. I really focus in on, you know, like the, the sports center, but like, like you just mentioned, like sportscasters, because I do find it remarkable how they, how they keep the energy going and like, you know, how they keep it fresh and, and it is impressive when you, when you hear that stat, you know, 160, you know, games a year, it's like.

[00:35:32] Badr: Man, like, imagine having to do that. Well,

[00:35:36] Heidi MacDonald: I think one of the reasons is that they have a producer. And they have somebody listening. It would be nice to have one, yeah. Right, and so I think when the producer listens, they, they are like Keith, especially Keith Hernandez, like, Keith, you already told that story or something like that, right?

[00:35:50] Heidi MacDonald: But, but there's actually, like, um, um, yeah, I mean, so I love baseball, I mean, I love wrestling. I love Pokemon Go. Like, wrestling and Pokemon Go were my two big go tos during the early pandemic when they were all

[00:36:03] Badr: Really quick, I gotta jump in on this, cause, cause I, I love me some Pokemon. Who are your starters?

[00:36:07] Badr: What's, what's your lineup looking like for Pokemon Go?

[00:36:10] Heidi MacDonald: Oh, well, my, my starters are my, oh, uh. You mean in terms of what in terms of my

[00:36:17] Badr: well, I guess in Pokemon go you only get one set Pokemon Um, I mean, I

[00:36:21] Heidi MacDonald: love I love the new one. I'll tell you I love Floregato Okay, these are the new Palladium ones that were just into this Floregato is like I love cats So it's a flower cat and the animation on it is incredible.

[00:36:33] Heidi MacDonald: It's so good I've had Floregato as my buddy for quite a while and and when you give him a Candy, like he wipes his mouth. It's so cool. I, I love floto and, uh, so

[00:36:46] Badr: oh my God, this is a really cute grass type of Right. Wow. This folk one. It's,

[00:36:50] Heidi MacDonald: it's so cool. It's so cute. Yeah. I, I like the illa ones, so, yeah. But just to go back to, you know, burnout.

[00:36:57] Heidi MacDonald: I mean, of course you get tired. I mean, I've been, you know, I've been doing this blog for 20 years and. Um, and, uh, you know, it ebbs and flows, absolutely. But again, you, you see something new come on and you're, or, you know, new people, or, you know, just people you like at different positions are doing different things.

[00:37:13] Heidi MacDonald: And then you're just, I mean, how long have you been doing this podcast?

[00:37:18] Badr: Since 2012.

[00:37:21] Heidi MacDonald: Right. So a long time, you know, 11 years and you always find something to say, even to sometimes I'm sure you're less into it or more into it, but at the day, It's fun to talk to people,

[00:37:33] Badr: right? Yeah, it's fun to hear my own voice.

[00:37:35] Badr: That's what you're

[00:37:35] Heidi MacDonald: saying. Yeah, exactly. I never get tired. I never get tired. Yeah, yeah. Jokes

[00:37:40] Badr: aside. Jokes aside, I do find, you know, like, talking to folks like you or David Harper, and you know, like, other people that really love this medium or the creators and getting like an insight does keep it refreshing for me.

[00:37:52] Badr: Even if sometimes, like, you know, my reading falls by the wayside. You know, it is nice to still be involved, um, you know, and then put, like, something back into it as well, like, to contribute to this thing I love with these interviews and insights, you know, yeah, I can only imagine, yeah, I'm sure for you, it's, you know, the same thing as well, you know, sometimes getting that nugget or that perspective from someone, you know, is like, reminds you of why you do it.

[00:38:16] Heidi MacDonald: Oh, yeah, absolutely. I just, you know, new people come and have new ideas. I mean, I've seen, you know, you said, but 20 years, I've been doing the beat for 20 years. I've been doing comics a lot longer than 20 years. It's closer to 40 years. Oh, wow. So, um, I've seen a lot of changes. I've seen a lot of changes and attitudes and, uh, I've seen, you know, a lot of things that when I got into the industry.

[00:38:40] Heidi MacDonald: I felt needed to change, and I've been able to see those changes made, so that's really the best feeling.

[00:38:46] Badr: What are some of those big, significant changes that you've seen? Oh,

[00:38:49] Heidi MacDonald: well, there's two. Well, there's three, but I'll go with, you know, the one. Okay, first off, I was always into graphic novels. I was always pro graphic novel, because I loved the long storylines in comics, right?

[00:39:05] Heidi MacDonald: Um, and then I would be like, Oh, this is really how you should read these comics, you know, is like, I would love to save them up. And then when I had the whole story is finished, I'd go and I'd find a comfy spot and I'd read the whole story. So I knew the graphic novel was eventually going to be the way and I, I didn't want to kill the periodical by any means, but I felt like the graphic novel should be.

[00:39:29] Heidi MacDonald: Recognized as a valid form for storytelling. And of course now it's the prevalent form. And then, you know, there's a lot of is the pamphlet doomed to talk, which has been since I got into this industry, that's been that way for 40 years. And then, so the other thing, which is really the big one is that when I got into comics, you know, to have a woman reading comics, let alone making comics was so unheard of.

[00:39:53] Heidi MacDonald: And such a battle and such a struggle and so many times I was told women don't like comics because they're not visual or they don't like superheroes or they don't like action or they don't like this or they don't like that or some other stupid shit and, um, you know, now it's, uh, it, you know, the reality of it is that, um, there was a period Where women didn't read comics and that is the 80s and 90s and I say women, I mean women and girls because it was Trina Robbins, who is the great, um, advocate for women in comics who found all these statistics from the 50s that were publishers, um, you know, like marketing research that they had done and that they published in like the magazines association of America.

[00:40:47] Heidi MacDonald: It's very, very dry, very, um, Um, just, you know, numbers sort of stuff and that showed that the audience was half, half boys and half girls for four comics in the fifties. So this was pretty groundbreaking, shocking news. And, uh, you know, you don't, we would go up to publishers and shake this in their face, you know, the male publishers of the day.

[00:41:11] Heidi MacDonald: And it wasn't, um, we didn't become more popular because of that. I'll leave it at that. Um, so, but it was, you know, I was told by everybody by all the powerful people in comics that women just wouldn't read comics and they wouldn't they just never could be done. How do we do it? How do we do it? How do we do it?

[00:41:29] Heidi MacDonald: Well, you just make things that are. Accessible to women and girls and of course now it's, um, you know, the manga revolution, obviously manga is insanely popular. I mean, I don't know what the breakdown of readership is, but it's probably 50, 50, you know, but they're saying, and then they're shown in and there's, there's, there's shoujo, there's shown.

[00:41:50] Heidi MacDonald: And I mean, there's books that girls like there's books that boys like there's books that boys and girls like, so it's just, you know, I mean, that was the dumbest thing I'd ever heard. It's like, you know, when you're standing there. Being a big comics nerd, and then you're told that you're the only one of your kind, or you're weird because you read comics, it just, you know, for me, that created, uh, a big, I'll show you, uh, attitude, and I, I guess I was right.

[00:42:18] Heidi MacDonald: You know, the other one was that kids couldn't read comics, but that one wasn't so much the kids didn't like comics, as no one would be that stupid as to say that they, kids didn't like comics, but it would be more like, They didn't want kids reading their comics, which I can sort of understand. Um, but that was also a big, there was that period of the eighties and nineties when kids comics were really failing and, um, a lot of reasons for that.

[00:42:44] Heidi MacDonald: So, um, but yeah, I was right about all three of those. Get

[00:42:48] Badr: it Heidi. All right, you know, I want to go back to your second point because you mentioned it in, uh, this recent article that you wrote, which is titled Retailer Warns That Comics Are Dying Again. It was published on November 9th, but in it, you have a line where you say that you've been writing about the decline of periodical comics Uh, here on the beat, endless, endlessly for the last 20 years.

[00:43:11] Badr: I guess, why, why does it feel so much louder now? Is it just because we have, we're living in the age of social media, and you know, sometimes the echo chamber effect? Like, I guess just to put it bluntly, and just to bluntly ask, like, is there any legs to the, you know, um, the rhetoric that we're hearing about comics dying?

[00:43:27] Badr: Like, are they really dying?

[00:43:28] Heidi MacDonald: Well, if you say comics are dying, that's just dumb. Comics will never die, okay? You know, this is again one of my primal moments. I quoted it over and over and over again, but um, when you're on, I was on a panel with Walt Simonson, Louise Simonson, and Chris Claremont, and they were just talking about all the great books they did, like the Thor, Walt Simonson's run on Thor, and he said at that point, he was like, we all thought comics were gonna die in a year anyway, so we were just like, why don't we just do what we want to do?

[00:43:56] Heidi MacDonald: So this was like the 70s, and he's not wrong. Everyone, you can go back to the fanzines, the letter columns that are printed, and see everybody's like, comics are dying, comics are dying, you know, this is over, this is not gonna work, comic shops are closing. It's the same sort of doom and gloom. Um, in the nineties, obviously there was a huge implosion of the industry.

[00:44:17] Heidi MacDonald: That was not a lie. It was, and you know, comics are dying. These publishers are dying, but they didn't, they stuck around. They, they soldiered on somehow they made it through. It is literally. A characteristic of people in the comics industry since I started 40 years ago. I mean, before that, when I was a fan growing up, comics are going to die.

[00:44:42] Heidi MacDonald: Now, what they mean is this aspect of comics that I like, and I work in is having trouble, right? But comics are never going to die. That's the, that's like saying movies are, well, movies are going to die or books are going to die. You know, that's like saying French fries are going to die. I mean, this is not like that.

[00:45:00] Heidi MacDonald: People like salty starch. They're always going to find some way to eat salty potatoes, you know? So

[00:45:09] Badr: I guess, is there any legs to any of it? Whether it be, so what, what are some of the, the valid points that, you know, you could point to that, that you could say, yeah, there is a decline now. And, and, you know, the American, uh, comic market, is it, is it, you know, the lack of Uh, diver storytelling, what, what has legs?

[00:45:30] Badr: So

[00:45:30] Heidi MacDonald: I think the number one problem right now in the comics industry is that we don't have sales charts. And if we did have sales charts, everyone was like, Oh, it would show how bad the numbers are. Like, maybe it would, but it would also show that some comic is the number one comic, 90s, things got very bad.

[00:45:49] Heidi MacDonald: The number one comic sold 75, 000 copies. And, um, you know, the numbers were, were very low and, uh, we survived. So, uh, I think the lack of sales charts, you know, so everybody's just guessing. That's the thing, all of these people who say they know, they don't know jack shit. Okay, they don't know what the numbers are.

[00:46:10] Heidi MacDonald: They might know what their numbers are. They don't know what anybody else's numbers are. So we don't know. We don't know how bad cells are. We don't know how good cells are. Okay. So that's the number 1 cause of this kind of really. Um, sharp anxiety. Okay, now, right. So there's, look, there's a lot of anxiety, which I think there's a lot of anxiety about everything right now.

[00:46:39] Heidi MacDonald: There's a lot of anxiety about the economy, about the world, about the climate, about politics, everything. We are right now living in an incredibly anxious, negative time. And, you know, I mentioned Taylor and. Travis, because it seems like as fake as it is, 1 of the few kind of positives that we can look at and be like, all right, thank you.

[00:47:02] Heidi MacDonald: Um, so there's a lot of anxiety. Now, some of it is justified. And I do think, but, but I think it's the narrative is. Um, clouded by bad actors who are trading on the anxiety in order to sell their own products. And you know, okay, Mark Millar, Mark, I challenge, I challenge you, right? And it's just like, you know, he's coming out, I'm sorry, I am Scottish, so I'm going to do the Scottish accent, you know.

[00:47:33] Heidi MacDonald: And he's like, like, oh, I wish we could get all the old timers working on the comics again. And like, Mark, you are an old timer. You're just talking about yourself. You want to be doing your Superman and that's fine. Own it, my friend. You did great Red Son. That is great. You did some really good Superman stuff.

[00:47:50] Heidi MacDonald: I'd love to see you come back. Okay. But I mean, it's very self serving of a Mark Miller. It's like, Oh, what about John Byrne? No one wants to see John Byrne on comics. No, they don't. Old, old, old people do. You, you need to, so the problem is that there is not a lot of inspiration and what is being done at Marvel and DC and those are the drivers for a lot of comic shops.

[00:48:22] Heidi MacDonald: Okay. You know, Frank Miller was 22 years old when he did Daredevil. 22 years old, okay? I think he was under 30 when he, yeah, he was under 30 when he did Dark Knight. He was a kid. Now, John Byrne is not a kid, right? Mark Miller is not a kid. I mean, Alan Moore was barely 30 when he did his stuff and, you know, he, they all started when they were teenagers.

[00:48:51] Heidi MacDonald: Also, um, I mean, Stan and Jack were around 40 when they redid the Marvel Universe. So I'm not saying you have to be. You know, I'm not saying that there's not room for super old people, which 40 isn't super old, but for today's purposes, it is considered old. Um, you know, but they, they were able to reinvent and, you know, the people who did do Marvel were not kids.

[00:49:14] Heidi MacDonald: So that is true. Okay. But they hadn't already created a superhero universe. You know, Kirby had been doing romance comics. I can't fault the editors necessarily. It's just that Marvel and DC have become cogs in these giant corporations. I mean, look at everything going on with the MCU this week. Look at everything going on with the Warner brothers discovery this week with these characters, with these products, you know, look at this whole controversy with David Zaslav and killing the movies.

[00:49:43] Heidi MacDonald: And then this time, you know, he had this, this Wile E. Coyote movie that everybody loved burying it. You know, even he had to back down this time. It was like, the outcry was so hot. And then, you know, like the MCU just pulled back on the Kang, this whole Kang. And you know what? Thank God. Because I'll tell you after seeing Quantumania and the Marvels and the Marvels is much better than Quantumania.

[00:50:08] Heidi MacDonald: Right. But it's like, it's so obvious that the people at the MCU have ideas. But they don't have stories.

[00:50:17] Badr: Yeah. We talked about the, the Marvel, how these last two episodes of shows, like I've, they've, I've said the MCU like a million times at this point, at the end of the day, our final thoughts was like all roads lead to like better storytelling.

[00:50:29] Badr: Like the lack of. Strong scripts or even just basic, you know, scripts and good storytelling is obviously missing and we're seeing the impact on that. And I wanted to go back to your point about Mark Millar's comments about, you know, bringing in some of this old talent and, you know, like I see where he's going, but at the same time, I think I'm in the same boat as you were like, you can't rely on.

[00:50:50] Badr: Nostalgia to revive or keep like, especially like superhero comics, I think any comic shop that is, that is only focusing on being a, a weekly superhero comic bookstore, uh, and only catering to, you know, nostalgia and older readers just won't last, you know, like it's, it's, you gotta, I think there's a fine middle ground, like the Bruce Timverse is so widely regarded and respected by older fans and also like was, And in my case, like was used to bring me into like, you know, DC and things.

[00:51:19] Badr: I think there's a, there's a fine middle ground that we can tell. That intelligent storytelling can be done about superheroes where it can appeal to like both like multiple generations if we're talking, you know, if we're trying to bring in younger readers into like the big two. I think there's a fine middle ground there and it's not.

[00:51:36] Badr: Yeah,

[00:51:38] Heidi MacDonald: no, no, no, no. You're absolutely right. And Bruce, Tim, you're right. That was a great thing to bring up because first off, that was a dark time, you know, for the comics industry. The 90s were a dark time. And, um, you know, we might look back on this. I think we will look back on this as a dark time for the big two, for sure.

[00:51:55] Heidi MacDonald: But I mean, there was another piece I wrote where I went to toy fair at the end of September, a couple months ago, and it was all manga like, there was no superhero stuff, but every once in a while you'd go in and there'd be like a row of cold cast statues and there'd be like, you know, spy by family and one piece and then there'd be.

[00:52:15] Heidi MacDonald: Uh, Batman, the animated series, there'll be this 30 year old Bruce Tim statue. And I'm like, really? Well, it's the best looking one for sure, but it's 30 years old. So really? Can't we, have we not updated anything? So, so they just have to take chances. I mean, Mark Miller is right. He is right about that. They have to take chances and it's so dangerous to take chances.

[00:52:38] Heidi MacDonald: Um, at Marvel or DC right now. You know, and I mean, I, Denny O'Neill took a chance on, on this 22 year old kid, you know, on Daredevil, and it changed comics, I mean. You know, they took a chance on, I mean, all these, the Vertigo, all those English invasion guys who came in, I mean, they all completely upended the characters.

[00:53:01] Heidi MacDonald: They tore them apart and built them back up again. Neil Gaiman, Alan Moore, Peter Milligan, all of them, you know, and then they created new characters like, you know, Hellblazer. I mean, look what Alan Moore did for Swamp Thing. Good Lord. You know, so I mean, in some ways that revolution has happened, you know, like, you can't really come in and be dark and gritty again with superhero.

[00:53:27] Heidi MacDonald: You know, I mean, that's been done. We did dark and gritty. So, so what is you don't? I don't know. I don't know. I mean, do you turn do you turn? I mean, Batman into one piece, uh, or do you turn Spider Man into Laura Olympus? I mean, I don't, I don't, I'm not sure. I just, it's not, it's never going to be a bunch of people, corporate people sitting in a room being like, Oh, how do we, how do we innovate?

[00:53:53] Heidi MacDonald: You know, it's just going to be some kid walking in with their portfolio that she shows and it knocks everyone's socks off.

[00:54:01] Badr: Well said, yeah, we're definitely overdue a revelation in that regard. It sounds like you would probably agree that I don't think putting all your eggs in the basket of like the big two to save the industry is quite the answer.

[00:54:13] Badr: I think it'll come from, you know, some of these independent and smaller publishers that are, that are capable of doing fresh new things because they're not, you know, beholden to, you know, IPs and, you know, corporate stakeholders and things like that. And. And if you do agree, like, I want to hear who are some publishers in your eyes that are doing fresh things that are, you know, putting out, you know, really cool stuff in the world of comics, like, you know, refreshing things.

[00:54:37] Badr: Sure,

[00:54:37] Heidi MacDonald: sure. Well, you know, who I really am excited to see what they do right now is, um, is Oni. And, um, I just feel like they rebooted and look, they had a really bad two years, you know, where they fired their whole staff and that's awful. And, uh, you know, because there was some pretty good people there who put out some pretty good books, but they brought on new people and they seem to be, um.

[00:55:02] Heidi MacDonald: I mean, I interviewed the publisher there, Hunter Gordon, sit in the editor chief Sierra hunt. And they were like, oh, yeah, you know, if you don't make the art, the main thing in a comic book, why are we even here? And, you know, a lot of publishers don't do that. It's like, the writer is the biggest name on the cover these days.

[00:55:18] Heidi MacDonald: Interesting. Right? I mean, it's like, who's the hottest artist in comics aside from Daniel Warren Johnston? Damn,

[00:55:26] Badr: that's a... Very good question. You know, now, now, now I'm on the spot. Uh, I would say, in my mind, it immediately always tends to go to Daniel Warren Johnson, but you're right, as far as like being able to list off rapid fire, um, you know, I'm thinking like Jorge Jimenez, uh, you know, like Gary Frank, but maybe that's more of my personal bias coming in.

[00:55:44] Badr: Yeah, but I

[00:55:44] Heidi MacDonald: mean, they're, I mean, they're great. I mean, look, I'll just say, I mean, Gary's really good. I mean, he's also been around a long time

[00:55:51] Badr: too. But you're saying like some, you know, like objective kind of like across the board, you know, like who are the biggest draws art wise and, and, you know, yeah, I guess if I had more time, maybe I'd think of names, but to your point, like, yeah, it doesn't, it's not very easy to name off the top of the head.

[00:56:05] Badr: Right.

[00:56:05] Heidi MacDonald: So I'll, but I'll, you know, I'll give Skybound credit for putting Danny Warren Johnson on Transformers, which turns out, I mean, they, They seem to be selling quite a few books, so I'm happy about that, right? And, um, that might be the number one book. I mean, we don't know because we don't have sales charts.

[00:56:21] Heidi MacDonald: I mean, and you know, that's on purpose. I mean, that was after the image guys broke away in the 90s, Marvel and DC both. They said, we're never going to let the artists become huge again. We're never going to let that happen. And, um, they never did, you know, and yeah, I just think it's harder now for an artist to really break out.

[00:56:40] Heidi MacDonald: And, and, you know, I think part of it is just that we're exposed to so much visual stimulation on a daily basis for everything. It's not like, you know, when Neil Adams came on the scene and just revolutionized everything. I mean, you know, it was the.

[00:56:52] Badr: Yeah, you brought up so far for the, you know, you've really emphasized like the lack of sales data and, and am I crazy for thinking there was a time where you could go on a site like comic Kron and look at the sales data?

[00:57:03] Badr: Is it because like, all of these publishers have splintered, you know, uh, you know, penguin house and, and, you know, Lunar and all that. Is that why we've kind of lost? Okay, so it is exactly that. Yeah,

[00:57:14] Heidi MacDonald: I mean, they don't, they don't give any data, you know, Lunar and Penguin Random House don't put out any data.

[00:57:19] Heidi MacDonald: Now there is. A movement to try to listen, if I run into a publisher and I, I mean, like, you know, the top name on the masthead and I just say to them, do you want so starts back? They're like, yes. Wow. We really want them to come back. Um, so it's not, it's not just me. They want them back for these reasons that we're saying.

[00:57:38] Heidi MacDonald: So there is a movement to try to, to try and bring them back. Well, but, um, there's a lot of trust issues out there, I guess so, but we will get them. We absolutely are going to get sales charts back. It just has to happen.

[00:57:50] Badr: So, uh, honey, I want to pivot back to, to the beat. And, you know, I was, I was looking as a person, as someone that visits that site pretty frequently, I'll admit, you know, prior to doing my research and prepping for this.

[00:58:03] Badr: I was maybe not familiar with how long the beat has been around. And then I got into a rabbit hole. Actually, it wasn't even a rabbit hole. It was just your Wikipedia that broke down like the history of the beat. And, and I've got a question for you, considering that the beat starts in 2004 on Comic Con.

[00:58:18] Badr: And then it moved as a publisher's weekly in 2006, and then it went independent in 2010, and then in 2016 it moved again, and then it got acquired by Lionforge in 2017, and then went back to being independent in 2020. I would say that a less resilient person probably would have quit after the third or fourth move.

[00:58:36] Badr: But what kept, what kept you going throughout those, throughout all of those changes and throughout the, those years and, and what does like the beat represent in, in today's day and age where it feels like anyone can get online and, you know, share their feelings and thoughts and, you know, quote unquote break news, like, like what, what kept you going?

[00:58:54] Badr: What does the beat represent in today's day and age? Well, I'll tell you what

[00:58:57] Heidi MacDonald: kept me going. And it's very simple, always bet on yourself and. You will, no one is ever going to care about you and your work as much as you do. And so I realized that there was some value in what I did and that no one else was bringing the specific, I mean, other people could do different things, you know, and I mean, I would feel threatened sometimes by new sites that came along.

[00:59:24] Heidi MacDonald: And then after I, and some of them are more successful or better in some ways. But after I analyzed it, I realized, oh, you know, they do, they don't do what I do and I don't do what they do. So it's fine. So that's it really. I mean, I just believe I love comics and, um, I want comics to succeed and I want them to be better.

[00:59:41] Heidi MacDonald: And I want creators to. To be more successful, I want them to be able to make more money doing it. I want everybody to be able to be successful in this industry. And I feel that giving them good information, uh, and that they might not have access to otherwise is beneficial to that. And I feel like readers want to have that same thing.

[01:00:02] Heidi MacDonald: So that's it. You know, it's mission driven. That's one thing I've actually come to realize over the last few years, because when you read out like that, all the changes, you're right. It is. What was I thinking? So it's very mission driven. And, um, you know, I've been doing next year will be my 20th anniversary.

[01:00:17] Heidi MacDonald: I'm going to say after I can do it every day for 20 years. Uh, we'll see. I mean, I'll probably keep doing it, but I can also be like, I did this. So, and what was your other question?

[01:00:30] Badr: No, I, uh, well, the other question was, you know, what does the beat represent in today's day and age when it feels like anyone can, you know, break the news or share their opinion?

[01:00:37] Badr: Well,

[01:00:38] Heidi MacDonald: can they? I mean, you know, when I first started, there was a blogosphere and there was a lot of other really good writers like, um, Tom Spurgeon and Kevin Melrose and, um, Johnny Bacardi. I mean, you know, I still have my blog role. I've never gotten rid of my blog role. I still have, uh, have it archived.

[01:00:58] Heidi MacDonald: But, yeah, there was kind of this robust dialogue going on that was replaced by social media, but because social media has become so decrepit now and corrupted. Um, I mean, you know, corrupted in the way that a computer file becomes corrupted. Actually, I hear people saying blogs are going to come back. So that might be the next thing because, you know, newsletters came back, message boards came back.

[01:01:22] Heidi MacDonald: So, all these forms of communication. It really is

[01:01:24] Badr: all cyclical, isn't

[01:01:25] Heidi MacDonald: it? It is, you know, and then we introduce new things like podcasts and YouTube. So what does it represent? I mean, I hope that we try to be accurate. We try to be informative. We try to be fun. We try to be entertaining. You know, I'm lucky to have a lot of really great writers who work with me who are also on board with this mission, you know, like Zach Quaintance and Avery Kaplan and Um, boy, who I'm forgetting all my really awesome.

[01:01:48] Heidi MacDonald: Joe Grunewald. Joe Grunewald. Although Joe has stepped back. He was, he was our managing editor, but he had to step back just to, you know, he, he had been doing it for a long time and you, you can't do it. Uh, Dean Simons and we're bringing out some new people. We just got a whole bunch of writers about manga and anime and they're doing a fantastic job.

[01:02:06] Heidi MacDonald: So, um, you know, that's it. Just seeing new people come in and become excited about things that keeps me excited. That's awesome. I enjoy life, Bayard. I like life and it's, it's good, you know? It's good to be alive.

[01:02:23] Badr: I totally agree with that. You know, I was, uh, I had texted, um, I've got a little, uh, text group with, uh, Chris Hack from the Oblivion Bar podcast and Greg Lichtyeg from the First Issue Club.

[01:02:33] Badr: And I was telling them like, hey, I've got Heidi coming on the show. You know, I wanted to get her on for a while. And Greg's most immediate response was like, hell yeah. He was like, we need more. Uh, outlets like, you know, the, the Beat and, uh, and Sketched, like, who aren't into sensationalist news that, you know, uh, do, you know, give, do the, do the legwork of, of looking up facts and presenting that in a, you know, unbiased way.

[01:02:58] Badr: And, you know, and I think that it was really... And I got to, I don't know, I got to really experience that, or like, kind of have that feeling to, uh, this week, when the news of the, um, comiXology, basically going away come December, I think, 4th, or something like that, I think my knee jerk reaction was like, You know, this is why I don't fuck with comiXology, this and that, and it wasn't until I read your write up where, uh, I think it was in a tweet, you know, you had mentioned something like, hey, it's not all that it's cracked up to be, and, you know, I got to reading your article, and it was like, yeah, only 7 percent of, um, uh, what is it, comics, or users actually use the comiXology app, most of them are using Kindle anyways, and, you know, most of that team has moved it to the Kindle to improve the reading experience, and it was just a moment of like, Man, you know, you got to remind yourself not to just have these, you know, knee jerk reactions, look past the, the headlines and...

[01:03:46] Badr: Well, that's, that's,

[01:03:47] Heidi MacDonald: that's a good example because, um, obviously I had access to some background information that, you know, I was given access to some background information. And, um, you know, I... Does it suck? Yes. Does Amazon suck for destroying comiXology? Yes. But it isn't quite gone away yet. And I do think that's, they have not done away with the name comiXology, and this is just how it is.

[01:04:15] Heidi MacDonald: And you know, um, so yeah, I was trying to, to just not be alarmist about it. I mean, I'm sure other people, and believe me, I have a couple of my writers working on Reviews of the Kindle and they're going to go nuclear, you know, so I'm like, so it's like, we're going to get, you know, a variety of opinions on this.

[01:04:32] Heidi MacDonald: Why I appreciate, you know, look, I, I was trying not to carry Amazon's water in that, but I was also just trying to be, look, here are the facts we, this is, you know, the shitification of everything, but let's try to make the best of it as we can in this moment. So anyway. You

[01:04:50] Badr: know, I think I could sum up all of my feelings about you, uh, in just, you know, a couple words and that's that you keep it real and I'll never forget when I was sitting in that panel room.

[01:04:59] Badr: I think, you know, they were waiting on things to get started. I think you might have been the last one. I think you were running a little late. Yeah, yeah, I was, I was. But you ran through that door and you had like a badass leather jacket and you were double fisting coffee and you got on stage. You're like, do you guys mind if I like eat my breakfast real quick?

[01:05:13] Badr: I'm like, man, this is real. I was like, this is, I can get behind it. This is a real person right here. And I think it comes across in your writing. Like you're, you're just very level headed and real. And I, I applaud that because it's not easy.

[01:05:25] Heidi MacDonald: Well, I'll tell you also, I've been doing it so long and, you know, I'm at an age where you could just do wacky things like that and people are like, ah, she's a tie.

[01:05:33] Heidi MacDonald: She's, you know, let her, you know, it's like Annie Potts on, on character on like young Sheldon, you know, like, she's my role model really. That was awesome.

[01:05:44] Badr: All right, Heidi, I've got, um, I got maybe, uh, maybe the most difficult question out of all of the, this line of questions. Uh, considering that you are an author on this, that, that book I mentioned at the top, Secret Teachings of a Comic Book Master, The Art of Alfredo Alcala.

[01:06:00] Badr: I want to know, what does your Mount Rushmore of comic book artists look like? Like, if you had to think of like four comic artists that represent maybe your, your taste, your personal favorites, like who is on that Mount Rushmore?

[01:06:13] Heidi MacDonald: Well, the Hernandez brothers. Okay. Like, I, I don't know if that counts as two.

[01:06:17] Heidi MacDonald: They are very different artists. Let's count them as one. But we'll count them as one. They are the greatest. They are the ones who, um, just, you know, opened my eyes to this whole world that was absolutely incredible. Um, I'm a big fan of old timey kind of stuff, I mean, because I'm old, but um, uh, you know, this is so not politically correct, but I'm just going to say it anyway, okay?

[01:06:47] Heidi MacDonald: I do love Milton Caniff, and I know he was Orientalist and there was racism, and fortunately all of the great cartoonists, except Jack Kirby. Had racism, had racist tropes, right? Um, but I do just love, I just love the, uh, romance and mystery and danger of his work. Um, you know, just his drawing, it just had so much atmosphere.

[01:07:12] Heidi MacDonald: I mean, I really, really, really love his stuff. Um, I guess I gotta say Karl Barks also, another sort of problematic fave nowadays, but, um, you know, he was the greatest storyteller. I mean, he influenced Krum, he influenced all those, um, all those guys. I would also say, I mean, I love Linda Barry. Okay. But you know, her art is a little, but her writing is the greatest writing, you know?

[01:07:37] Badr: Now, I'm not, I'm not familiar with Linda Barry. Like what, what has she done?

[01:07:40] Heidi MacDonald: Uh, well, she did Ernie Pook's Comique, like, like Drawn and Quarterly puts her stuff now. And she did this car, this comic strip that ran in the, in the eighties that was called Ernie Pook's Comique. And it was just about her growing up.

[01:07:52] Heidi MacDonald: Um, and like this girl, Marlis and. Uh, I mean, Linda's part Filipino, so it's like, you know, kind of this mixed race and just growing up and just the things that happen to kids and her writing is just insanely, um, beautiful and it's, it's, it's a lot like Love and Rockets. I have to say, you know, when you read those really incredible stories that that Gilbert and Jaime both did where they just show you the characters whole life.

[01:08:17] Heidi MacDonald: And a few panels and just everything that, that, that, you know, motivated them and what their hopes were and where they failed in, like, 1 panel, like, they can both do that. And it's absolutely heartbreaking Linda can do that too. And just, but she's more, she's, I will say, uh, you know, her art is, is, is, you know, she's, she draws in this modern primitive style, but it's still just like the most heartbreaking and emotionally.

[01:08:47] Heidi MacDonald: Um, charge. So I guess those would be those. That's the only, uh, three. No, that's four. That's four

[01:08:52] Badr: of my, but if you want an honorable mention, I mean, look, you're Heidi McDonald, you get a damn right.

[01:08:56] Heidi MacDonald: What do I get for, you know, I got to put a modern person on there too. Uh, you know, a little more modern who really is like just the bomb.

[01:09:04] Heidi MacDonald: Um, you know, I put our, our Asawa on there too, although his work is kind of, that's just my personal, you know, like his stuff is kind of, Uneven, and, um, and, you know, not everything is as great, but, um, I think 20th Century Boys masterpiece, Pluto's great, Monster's great. I mean, he's just like an incredible storyteller, so.

[01:09:28] Badr: Have you ever read Master Keaton at all? You

[01:09:30] Heidi MacDonald: know, I haven't read that, no. But, I mean, he's done so many. The one that I know nobody likes is Billy Bat,

[01:09:36] Badr: right? I've, I've never read that one, but I, I, I don't know if there isn't like a bad, uh, I mean, this is the first time I'm hearing like he's got like, uh, you know, it's, you know, something less than I guess mid or, you know, as the kids would say, but, you know, I mean, you've mentioned all of his top hits, right?

[01:09:50] Badr: Like 20th century boys. You can't go wrong with, you know, Pluto obviously he's got his own, you know, damn adaptation. That's fantastic. Yeah, but you know what? Look,

[01:09:58] Heidi MacDonald: I, I, I've, I've told this to people and I'll say it again. You know, I'll tell you, you know how to save periodical comics in America. You gotta break in to Marvel and DC and you put the first volume of 20th Century Boys on everybody's desk.

[01:10:13] Heidi MacDonald: They come in, they come in and then, you know, for work, they don't do this. Like, neither Marvel nor DC has an office anymore, so this wouldn't work anymore. But back in the day when they did. If you could have somehow broken in and left 21st volume 20th Century Boys on all their desks, everyone would have read it, they would have peed their pants, and then they would have tried to do better.

[01:10:36] Badr: You know, I've had 20th Century Boys volume 1 on my nightstand for a minute now, and I think this was the motivation to finally crack that book open. Would 20th Century Boys be your pick if you had to give someone... One graphic novel to like get them into the medium of comics, you know, and I'm, I'm, I'm include obviously a manga in that as well, but would you say 20th century boys or do you have another pick?

[01:10:57] Heidi MacDonald: Well, I think you might do the first 20th century boys or the first one piece. Um, let's be honest, you know, that, although he got better, but I mean, it's just so like at the end of the first volume, you've met all these characters, you know, Luffy wants to be king of the pirates. How are you not going to keep reading it?

[01:11:13] Heidi MacDonald: Right? Uh, I'll tell you though, if you want to really get someone in, um, yeah, what's your go to you have a go. Okay. Well, there's two, there's two, but the complete opposites. So one is smile by Reina Telgemeier, which is about how she falls down and knocks out her teeth. And it's a classic, but everybody has, I was talking about this with some friends.

[01:11:31] Heidi MacDonald: Over the weekend, everybody has nightmares about falling and knocking their teeth out or, you know, losing their teeth, getting hit in the mouth, right? Everybody's,

[01:11:38] Badr: I mean, it's literally happened to me. So this sounds,

[01:11:40] Heidi MacDonald: okay, so there you go. So you actually had it happen to you, right? But for those such as myself, who are lucky enough not to have had it happen.

[01:11:49] Heidi MacDonald: But to worry about it, this book is what happens when you fall down and knock your teeth out. So, and it's charming. It's wonderful. It's an absolute classic. So nobody's not going to want to read about what happened to this girl when she knocked her teeth out, right? You're not, you're not going to put this book down.

[01:12:05] Heidi MacDonald: And the other one is the exact opposite. But my friend Dahmer by Durf back Durf, there is no one who is not going to read, start to read this book, right? I went to school with Jeffrey Dahmer, one of America's most notorious mass murderers. And what was he like, right? I mean, it's a bestseller in many languages.

[01:12:28] Heidi MacDonald: It's another classic. Um, it's just, it's just, you know, like, like I said, my go to is just like, is it people are going to open that book up and, you know, they might not like the art style or something, but they're kind of want to know what happens, you know? And I guess the other 1 is Watchmen. I mean, which is a little people like, well, it's too difficult.

[01:12:45] Heidi MacDonald: I mean, look at how we still quote it

[01:12:48] Badr: constantly. You're right. It is almost like a cliche, you know, that's how popular it is. It's a cliche to say it, but

[01:12:54] Heidi MacDonald: I did it 35 minutes ago.

[01:12:59] Badr: That is good. You know, and really quick, I want to also give you, um, to transition off this, uh, and I'm assuming it was for another podcast, but just on the, since I brought up podcast, Heidi, I got to give you. Like even more mad credit, not like I didn't have like mad respect for you, but when we were trying to figure out how to coordinate this, you were like, Oh yeah, I normally record my podcast.

[01:13:20] Badr: Oh, I do a podcast as well. I record it on Thursdays. And I was like, what podcast issue is it? Is it the beats related? Is it, you know, uh, something else related? Well, you know, as I'm doing my research on you, I'm like, Oh, she's, you know, still, uh, Associated Publishers Weekly. Oh, they have a podcast. Oh, my God, they've been doing it since 2011.

[01:13:38] Badr: Oh, my God, they're almost 600 episodes in, like, that's incredible, like, from one podcast to another. Yeah. I highly respect. What do you guys talk about on that for, for anyone? We talk about

[01:13:48] Heidi MacDonald: comics news. I mean, by the time this, uh, comes out, um, we will have recorded it. So this is, our podcast will come out on Monday.

[01:13:56] Heidi MacDonald: Um, uh, our story list is pretty much the things we've talked about here, comics, but we cover business topics. We don't do like. Um,

[01:14:06] Badr: no,

[01:14:08] Heidi MacDonald: we don't, we don't. It's always like, what was the news? And we'd cover it from a business perspective. And I think we're pretty much the only podcast that really does it quite the way we do it.

[01:14:16] Heidi MacDonald: So, um, it's nice. I wish we had, you know what, you were going to be making me think that we've got to promote this podcast more. Um, it's got, it should be better now. So I, cause Calvin and Kate are really

[01:14:27] Badr: great. So. Well, look, you got a new subscriber in me, so I'm going to check it out and I'm going to be sharing it with my friends.

[01:14:32] Badr: But last question for you, Heidi, because I know actually speaking of that, I

[01:14:35] Heidi MacDonald: gotta actually go and prep for my next podcast. I gotta drink some water. I'm a little hoarse

[01:14:40] Badr: here. I got one last question for you, and I want to end it on something inspiring. When you consider that there's probably someone listening right now that wants to write about comics professionally, get into the world of journalism, or just wants to be the next Heidi MacDonald, what advice would you give them and maybe a piece of advice that you wish you would have gotten as you started out, you know, something that would have benefited you early on in your career?

[01:15:03] Heidi MacDonald: Well, never write something that you wouldn't say to a person's face. First off, that's a really good rule because, and I mean that in that if you're going to say something, you know, critical, don't want to be the person's friend because they're probably not going to want us to be friends with you. So, I've learned that lesson the hard way.

[01:15:23] Heidi MacDonald: Uh, so that's just really a good one and, you know, don't, um, but it's a good guideline. You know, like, like, it just keeps you honest and it keeps you, um, you know, in mindful of the human audience that you have.

[01:15:38] Badr: So, and maybe like, and I'm assuming like, not to put words in your mouth, but also probably empathetic towards the actual people that, you know, put their time, sweat and tears into this.

[01:15:48] Badr: Yeah,

[01:15:48] Heidi MacDonald: absolutely. And I mean, you know, that doesn't mean you got to really, you know, sometimes you got to be harsh and, uh, I don't like that. I don't like being harsh because I do understand there's some, you know, there's somebody was baby boy, you know, or baby girl, but, um, yeah, I mean, you know, the other piece of advice I would just be, and this goes for everything.

[01:16:07] Heidi MacDonald: Bet on yourself. Bet

[01:16:08] Badr: on yourself. I absolutely love that. Thank you. Heidi, this has been even better than I could have imagined and well worth the time and the technical frustrations we

[01:16:18] Heidi MacDonald: had. Yes, and I'm glad we could do it because we danced back and forth for a bit and then, you know, scheduling is always difficult, but I'm so glad I could

[01:16:26] Badr: finally do it.

[01:16:27] Badr: Yeah, Heidi, I'm going to have links to your socials, I'm going to have links to the Beat website, obviously in the show notes, I'll even include a link to the Publishers Weekly podcast so people can subscribe and follow you there, but is there anything else that you want to share, any closing remarks, anything you want to plug, I mean, you can, this is the part where you can share with everybody.

[01:16:42] Heidi MacDonald: Make sure you link to my TikTok. Talk, because I do tip talk and I say I shouldn't, but I do give you a follow. So I'm on there. There you go. Yeah. And that's, that's, that's where I keep it really real. Look,

[01:16:57] Badr: you got to follow out of me. But with that being said, Heidi, I appreciate you. Thank you so much. I'll let you go now and I'll catch you around.

[01:17:03] Badr: Right.

[01:17:04] Heidi MacDonald: All right. Thanks so much. Great.

[01:17:10] Badr: And there you have it, short box nation. And we had another one in the books, another great conversation at that big shout outs to Heidi McDonald, big shout outs to the entire comics beat staff. Now, if you enjoyed listening to this conversation, as much as I enjoyed hosting it, I'm gonna ask a small favor, right?

[01:17:26] Badr: Just a small favor. If you enjoyed this episode, head over to Apple podcasts or Spotify, or, or however, you're listening to this and leave us a five star rating and review. And if you've already done that, well help us spread the word. Go tell a friend, go tell your best friend, your best comic friend, your, uh, tell someone at your local comic shop.

[01:17:43] Badr: Word of mouth is just as important as ratings and reviews and Patreon and all of that, and it would mean the world to us. And since this episode drops on Wednesday, aka local comic shop day, as well as being the day before Thanksgiving, I want to wish all of you a happy Thanksgiving if you celebrate. I hope your, your, your food is immaculate.

[01:18:02] Badr: I hope the conversation at the dinner table is great. Just overall, I hope all of you enjoyed the Thanksgiving holiday. I know I'm looking forward to having a couple of days off of work. That doesn't mean that, uh, the podcast will stop next week. I've got a really good. Interview lined up for next Wednesday and I know I say that about all of the episodes But this one's just a little closer to my heart a little more near and dear and that's because not only do I get to talk and you know wax poetics about comic books, but I'm also talking about the intersection where comics and hip hop meet with a Amazing guest that could speak to that in volume So I don't want to spoil the surprise the patreon subscribers already know who I'm talking about because I dropped that episode Last week or two weeks.

[01:18:46] Badr: It's, it's kind of old news to them. So I'm looking forward for all of you to hear that episode next Wednesday and a little shameless plug here. But if you want to be on the up and up, uh, with all of our episodes, if you want early access to all the things we do access to bonus episodes and, you know, extra perks and, and to be treated like VIP.

[01:19:05] Badr: I highly recommend and encourage that you join our Patreon community. You'll get to enjoy all of that and a whole bunch of other perks I don't have time to list. But I'm telling you, it's affordable and well worth your time and investment. And the best part is, all of that, any money that we get from Patreon or even like the merch store, just goes back into the show.

[01:19:23] Badr: So you can feel good about getting... Treated like VIP as well as helping us grow and grow this show and continue to make it better. So, uh, patreon. com slash the short box. And if you want to buy some short box merch, check out the short box store. There's a link in the show notes and we're running a sale too.

[01:19:42] Badr: You get to save 10 percent off with the discount code. All right. All of that is in the show notes. We're trying to make way for some new designs. So we got to get rid of some old stock, but that just means, you know, we're passing the savings down to you with that said, this is where I'm taking my leave.

[01:19:55] Badr: Uh, I think I'm just stalling at this point until next Wednesday, take care of yourselves, go read your comics and please continue to make mine and your short box. I'll catch you next week. Peace.