Sight Beyond Sight - An Interview with Declan Shalvey about Ireland, Moon Knight, and The Thundercats (The Short Box Podcast Ep. 416)

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In this episode of The Short Box. When I got my contract at Marvel, I was in New York at the time and I put it in the mailbox and I had a friend take a photo and I sent it to my mum, you know, just to show her like, I did it, you know, that was huge, you know, for me. And she took I was talking to her actually last week and she said when she saw that photo, she was she wasn't proud of me. She was relieved. Which makes, you know, she just had a huge sense of relief because.

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know, because years and years and years of going to conventions and nothing really coming of it necessarily. And it was a long, long road of like trying and trying and trying.

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Ladies and gentlemen, I present to you the Short Bop podcast. Season 9.

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podcast is recorded live from Jacksonville.

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Shorbox Nation, without further ado, let's welcome our guest of honor today, the award-winning artist and writer for Marvel, Image, Boom Studios. And come February, he'll be adding Dynamite comics to his long list of accolades. Let's welcome Declan Shelby to the show. Declan, welcome to the show. Thank you. How are you doing today? Good, sir. Thank you. No, please, please, stop. Please, no more. No, keep going, it's fine, it's fine. They can go on all day. Declan, how are you doing? I'm very well, thanks for asking. How are you?

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I'm not too shabby, but I've started the year off with a bunch of, um, like just dentist appointments. I've had like two or three in the last 16 days. And yeah, it's just, I've had a crash course into our, our dental system here in the States and it's just as terrible as a healthcare. So, um, not everything else is great though, but my mouth apparently is not doing so fine. So luckily it's not impacting my ability to podcast and talk and whatnot.

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It still doesn't sound hollow when you're like, you're doing okay. Douglin, where are you at now? I understand that you were born in Dublin and then you grew up in, is it Clare County or County Clare? Are you still there? Yeah, County Clare. Yeah, I'm in County Clare now. I was living in Dublin for a long time, but I moved back to the West, as we call it, about just over a year ago. So I'm back in the town I grew up in.

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I was reading comics and wanted drawing in the back of my school copies. So I'm back in my old stomping grounds, which is a little surreal, but it's nice to be back having achieved the dream I always had as a kid. It's kind of nice. Now, what is the, I guess, the comic scene like in County Claire? Has it changed much since the days of you being young and reading comics? Has that culture grown and whatnot?

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I know it's small here. I mean, I think you're looking at the comic scene in Claire. Although, you know, I know there's a couple of lads who've been doing like small press stuff. There's a new artist whose work I quite like is living in Shannon, which is like a 20 minute drive down the road. But a lot of it has been centered in Dublin, but there's a few people around like Will Slyneys and Cork and Nate Stockman is in.

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Danny Goll and Danny Earls is in Wexford, I think. So it was very, the indie scene was very concentrated in Dublin, but I think some of us who've made proper careers can afford to be outside the hub as it were. So it was a nice mix, in the country, there's a nice mix of professionals for years and also a fairly solid...

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indie scene where people are doing their published books and things like that. So there's a nice mix. Greg Foss Yeah. And before we hit record, you were telling me about a convention in Italy. And I know there's been a lot of those popping up. I think Italy and Paris are the two that come, and I guess England as well, that come to mind when it comes to long-standing comic conventions. So have you noticed a...

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a change or increase in comic conventions taking place in Europe in general? Well, I mean, I came up in the UK scene. So, you know, there's like the odds convention here in Ireland. But like when I was starting out, there was nothing. So nothing that was really of use to somebody trying to break in. You know, so I went to a lot of shows in the UK. Bristol was big. Birmingham was big. Now there's a lot of thought bubble.

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as one of the bigger ones in the UK. And like now the NCM shows have taken over and they're very pop culture heavy and they seem to do very, very well. So it's definitely kicked off more in the UK. Europe tends to be... No, actually there's a good... There's a few... I don't know how you describe them, companies who do shows around Europe. I think they're called heroes, but I remember I did one in Spain once and I know they do them in like Netherlands and Belgium. So

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There are some companies doing the pop culture thing, but there's also very long running art centric festivals like Avelet, I think is in Spain. I've never done that, but I've been to Angoulême in France and Lucca in Italy a few times. So you'll have a, there's a lot of stuff going on in Europe for sure. Which is great now for me because you can do all these lovely great shows. But when I was starting out, it was really America where I was trying to...

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hits. So I was like, I did Heroes and New York, loads of times, San Diego, a few Galaxy cons. Like I try and mix it up so I'm not only doing one type of show because they can get they can get a little repetitive and, you know, the novelty wears off. So I think I think in October I did two. I did a pop culture show in Italy and then I did New York Comic Con. And then I did and Luca in Italy. And then I went. I did.

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Columbus in the States. So I mixed up a few very pop culture and RT festivals that way. But that way you're always kind of engaged, you know, you appreciate both for what they are. It sounds like you have a healthy amount of airline miles as well from the sounds of it too. Yeah, I mean, geez, I mean, I never was one to have any interest in traveling, but I was talking to a friend recently, just realized comics have brought me all over. I've been to America, all over America. I've been to...

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where all over Europe I've been to India, South Africa, Israel, places I never would have imagined like me growing up in the west of Ireland, going to any of these places. It's weird when you look back. Comics has given me so much. It's insane. It's absolutely insane. Luke Gromen Do you recall your first conscious exposure to comics? Can you recall that first comic you ever picked up or had that made you a fan of the medium? John Larkin

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I mean, I can't remember what order they're in, but I do remember reading asterix. If you're familiar with asterix, it's like a European comic. So like you could get those volumes in very easily in the local library. So I was able to read those. And there were a lot of news agents kind of, newsstand comics, there'll be a lot of like a Teenage Mutant Mutant Tira Turtles and Duck Tales, stuff like that. But I was finding an X-Force comic in a random news agent.

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in La Hinch, which is a beach town near here. And it was like, I just found the Holy Grail mixed in with all these boring objects, something just popped out. And I ran to my mother to get the money to buy it and I went back and it was gone. And I was traumatized. So my mum, just to shut me up, managed to find a newsagent in my hometown who could guess the X-Men comic, which I just thought it was one X-Men comic.

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And just getting that first American one, I think really, I mean, I always drew comics as a kid and I would have, you know, I would have traced the stuff from the news agent stuff. But I think I remember the X-Men comic just really hitting this kind of like nerve deep in me that just filled me with excitement. And I was just really hooked from then on. Do you recall like, who maybe was the artist, what was the cover, or maybe even the issue number by any chance? Yeah, it was the X-Men issue 35.

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written by, I think it was, I actually can't remember who wrote it. I should really know that. But Liam Sharp drew it. And that was weird because to me, like, this is an American comic. Liam Sharp is British. Very famous British artist. But it was an American comic, so I just assumed everybody was American, you know? I wouldn't have thought that it was anything else. But yeah, it was an issue about Cyclops and Phoenix. I'm looking at the cover now. And Nick Fury was in it. Yeah, this is a radical cover. I mean, I don't think I've ever seen...

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this suit on Cyclops. No, it was specific for that issue because they came back from the adventures of Cyclops and Phoenix, which I didn't know about at the time. And they're sort of like with these weird shield variants that clearly Liam Sharp just drew because he wanted to draw it. But then I remember the very next issue was the Phalanx Covenant, part two. I was like, what the? The last issue was, you know, what's the Phalanx Covenant? I didn't understand.

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were crossovers or other X-Men comics until I'd see the ads for where they were. I'm like, what? What's uncanny? It's weird. People talk about how comics need to be more accessible. And maybe that's true to some degree, but at the time they were so inaccessible, especially when I had no access to them. So my mom was very good. She brought me to Dublin for my birthday once, and I found a comic shop and I just stayed in there just trying to figure out with the bit of money my mom gave me what...

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you know, while I get and all of a sudden there's this whole other world. So it's I mean, it was it was incredibly exciting for like a young teenager, you know, to find this stuff. And yeah, I just I clearly just got sucked in. I love that regardless of where you're at in the world, getting into comics, we all kind of shared certain like similar beats where it's like confusion, like what is this? And, you know, why doesn't this fit into this story and this and that? And then like excitement. Well, I mean, everything's changed now. There are no newsstands.

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And you know, the experience is different. And I've told this story recently, but I remember issue 30, 40. I can't remember which issue it was, but when, you know, when Legion quest and when Legion accidentally kills Xavier and then Age of Apocalypse happened. Yeah. But the thing is, my newsagent was ordering X-Men. So there was no X-Men comic. They changed it to astonishing X-Men, but my newsagent didn't know that. So there was no X-Men comic for one month and then another month.

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And they just killed Xavier. So I was thinking like, did I just get into X-Men before they ended it? Like I thought there was I thought it was done like for ages and then out of nowhere. It's back. So I and it was references to Age of Apocalypse. So I'm like, I don't understand what's the age of like, I just thought for a while there, I thought they just ended X-Men. Right. Just like I got into it. And I think the Age of Apocalypse ran for maybe almost a year, if not a couple of like. I think it was only four or five months maybe. But that is a long.

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Yeah, I mean, how would I? There was no internet back then. There's no way to know this stuff. So, you know, just, I just thought that's it. Comics are over. Yeah, from your perspective, there's a lot of different points in the, and like the logistics of it. You know, I'm hearing you say news agent and it, you know, that's kind of like your bottleneck, right? Like if the news agent isn't familiar with American comics and spinoffs and the different titles. And, you know, in that, especially at that time, I think Age of Apocalypse was...

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I don't think it was like the first of its kind as far as like company wide crossover, but you know, it was a pretty big deal. So if your news agent is like, I mean, think about it now is pretty ballsy for sure, for sure, you know, at the time, you know, but then, you know, I did, I did start like once I got into a comic shop, I found like Wizard magazine. And I think I think I might have ordered a subscription to that. And so I was learning more about the comics world.

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and creators and what was happening in books that I wouldn't have had no interest at the time, but I know crazy stuff was happening with Image. Again, before the internet, that was my one access point to the industry and finding out about other books and DC comics and things like that. But my main entry points were X-Men and Spider-Man because as well...

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Pinini who we very well know now, but at the time they just started publishing older American comics. So while I was trying, I said the story before, but while I was trying to follow the end of the clone saga with American comics, they started the clone saga from four years previously in the British reprints. So I was kind of trying to close the gap on that mental story. But again, like I made note, like from that experience, you don't know what's happening, but still I was just so

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was so exciting. I loved Mark Bagley's work and Tom Lyle and all the Spider-Man stuff. So you just have your little crumbs and you just savour those crumbs and just hope that it'll make sense in the end. Whereas now a lot of it's like, oh, I don't know what it is, and just throw it away. When you had such limited access, you really, really savoured it. I have no idea how I kept going with it because it was so inaccessible.

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Who the hell is Ben Reilly? Now, you know, speaking of family, right? You bring up your mom and get in her day, take you to a comic shop. I have a quote here that I heard you say in an interview, and I love this quote. You mentioned that you knew you made it when you got to attend the Moon Knight premiere in LA. And you said that you brought your sister and she made the remark, looks like all my bullying finally paid off.

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So that got me thinking, like, what does your family think of your career in comics? Were they supportive early on when you were like decided, hey, I want to make this a living. I want to do this full time. Well, when my dad f***ed off when I was a kid, so I was raised by my mom and have a younger sister. So I didn't really have any, you know, input in that regard. My mom had a boyfriend who, to be fair to him, he did not understand at all. And I'd say would be very, very dismissive of it. Like, you're very like...

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You know, his job was very hard labor. So, you know, he was into like athletics and things like that. So like this kind of weird nerdy kid who's drawing all the time, like what's he at? Um, but as the years went by, I think you understand a bit more, you know, I mean, to be fair to people trying to explain, you know, wanting to have a career in comics, it just sounds insane. Um, but my mom was always very, very supportive, um, more supportive than she really needed to be, um, considering like she was a single mom and everything, you know?

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And my sister, I mean, my sister was always supportive. She was joking when she said it. She always bullies me, or not bullies me, but she makes a point. She's like, everyone thinks you're really good at drawing, but you've never been able to draw me. Because any time I've tried to draw her, she told me to draw her in 28 days later. And I did. And I had a very good likeness of her, but I drew her as one of the infected people. So then I drew blood all over her. So it didn't look like her anymore. So that's it. She maintains really that I have to prove to her that.

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that a good drawing of her and then she'll then she'll acknowledge that I'm good at what I do. That is such a big sister joke. I ran a big sister and I can hear her. She's my little sister. That's even funny. Yeah. I mean, I wouldn't say she was always like, oh, you can do it or anything like that. But I mean, drawing was always my thing and nobody ever, you know, no one in my family ever tried to talk me out of it. And I think I was talking to my mom recently, actually, and she said, you know, when I got finally got the Marvel

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When I got my contract at Marvel, I put it in an envelope and when I put it in the, I was in New York at the time and I put it in the mailbox and I had a friend take a photo and I sent it to my mum, just to show her like, I did it. That was huge for me. I was talking to her actually last week and she said when she saw that photo, she wasn't proud of me, she was relieved.

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She just had a huge sense of relief because years and years and years of going to conventions and nothing really coming of it necessarily. What was I doing it all my whole life? I got my first paid gig. I was in my 20s, like 25 maybe, something like that. So it was a long, long road of trying and trying and trying. But the town I grew up in, if you're not playing a certain local sport, nobody cares what you do.

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And now that I'm back here years later, you know, people are very, because everyone knows what Marvel is now. Back then nobody had a clue. You know, nobody knew Captain America was or Iron Man or anything like that. So it's weird. Like all of my friends now have kids and all of their kids love Marvel and stuff like that. So like, it's weird how much has changed since, but, but you know, you remember the people who supported you when nobody else gave a toss, you know, and there's like a good few friends of mine I went to school with who are like, wow, you always wanted to do this and you're doing it. It's crazy. And it's, it, I mean.

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You kind of forget how mental it really is to be doing this. You know, when you're in the trenches, you just kind of you're preoccupied with your deadlines and getting everything done. So it has been a weird kind of a palate cleanser, but like, it's just kind of weird to step back into your old shoes and realize that, you know, how things have changed and what I've actually managed to do is mad. Yeah. Sorry, I'm getting all sentimental. No, as you should. You've worked your whole life getting to this point.

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you probably have had your head down just doing the work, you know, gig to gig. And then, you know, it's nice to maybe like look up and be like, wow, you know, to kind of like take that in. That can be like a rush of emotions at time. I mean, I think it's actually very important to stop and smell the roses sometimes, because I do know a lot of creators and a lot of us can get very in the weeds too much and frustrated and, you know, and understandably. So where your career is or you're not making enough, you know, your page rate or you're not getting respect from the publishers, all the various stuff.

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And because not many people around you understand that, we all end up kind of venting to each other, you know, because you understand. You know, you can't tell like your friend who's a plumber, he doesn't get this, you know, a same, you know, but, you know, plumbers know each other. I mean, there's a whole plumber network, right? You know what I mean? Like people who have normal jobs can talk to normal people about normal stuff. We have weird jobs and weird people are other sides of the country or the planet.

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So we talked, but it is good to smell the rose sometimes real at how fortunate you are to be even. Like I was talking to another creator recently and they made the point that like some people just get to do the job, like writer draw comics for a publisher. And they're, and they're lucky. And then there's another level of people who get to do it at say Marvel in DC, who just get to work there. Which was their dream and they did it. And then there's people who get to do there and then get kind of the types of projects they'd really like. Which.

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I'm there, which is incredible. I'm so lucky. And then there's another level of people who just get to make their own projects and like make a living off it. And I've even gotten to that, you realize there's so many levels of this stuff where you're lucky and fortunate and like, I couldn't, I mean, what more could I ask for, you know, I mean, well, I mean, I could ask for lots more, but I realize I've done, I'm, I am very, very fortunate to be where I am. And I don't, I really try not to take that for granted, you know.

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No, that's fair. And it's well deserved. You're also part of another exclusive club within comics, and that is creators that can say like, they write, they draw, they also do covers, they color. You know, you're a man of many talents, you've got a lot of tools in your toolbox. And I found this interview 10 years ago, I think you had just started like writing. And I'm curious if this analogy, I guess you can call it analogy, still holds weight or if it's still true for you. But you said that drawing from a script is like

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solving a puzzle, but writing is like forming the puzzle itself and you solve it by the script phase before passing it to art. When you think back, well when you hear that, is that still applicable considering you've written your fair share of comics at this point? You are known as a writer just as much as you're known as an artist. Does that analogy still hold weight for you now? Yeah, I think so. I think it feels like that's when I was doing the Nick Fury story as

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for Marvel because that was the first story I wrote and drew professionally. Well, geez, nearly totally. And I think, yeah, that was it. It's good. I loved, I think the cool thing about drawing comics is taking the script and like, how do you make this work visually? You know, some writers, it's really hard. Other writers, it's really, it's just like, it just flows. And my, my concern was I would lose out on that aspect of solving the puzzle. But then when I did start writing, I'm like, oh no, this is different. Actually, I'm

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I guess you could say you're creating the puzzle, but you're kind of creating a trap. You're building a map with traps and directions of where you want an audience to go and where they are going to go and how the artists giving them the room to plan things. That aspect of it has definitely become more interesting with the more projects I've done since. But I think what really demystified writing for me was...

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looking at it as a puzzle, as a design project, which, or I thought that like, you know, working with people like Warren or whoever else, you know, they're geniuses and they just create work from the ether and it's perfect. Whereas, you know, from a drawing point of view, sometimes the hand looks wrong and you've got to refine that, or sometimes the composition isn't as strong as it could be, so you've got to move something. And I took that approach to writing and it really demystified it for me because, you know, this three page scene

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be way better at the beginning. So move it. It's not ruined. You just constantly chip away and rearrange things into the best version that they can be. And then you can go back and tighten up dialogue, things like that. I'm writing a scene in Thundercats now and I'm like, oh, this is good. Three page scene. Maybe I should go somewhere else and come back to it later and not stay in the same scene too much. But then I realized, no, I need to hit a certain dramatic

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all that is very designed to me. I'm designing the structure of it. You do that in art all the time. That's why I think I do like that. The hard thing is actually nailing it down and then making all the characters unbelievable, stuff like that. But the more you do that, the better you get at it. But I do still... Sorry, the answer to your question is yes. One word answer. Yes. Yeah, no, it's still very much like that for me, which I like. I like solving the puzzle.

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I like making the puzzle, but also from writing and drawing, I like making the puzzle and then solving it is very, it just feels like you're just fleshing it out. And it's easier to change something in the outline than it is to redraw a page. So like I said, same thing with like doing work for hire stuff and doing create our own stuff, or doing short form storytelling or longer form storytelling. Only drawing comics would drive me mad and only writing comics would

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and only writing and drawing comics would drive me mad. So I have enough creative kind of resistance or freedom to keep everything, you know, healthy and fresh, I think. Like I did more creator on stuff last year with Old Dog and Time Before Time, where I realized I'm writing Alien for Marvel and that's kind of my side gig. And I would never have thought that my Marvel job would be the side gig because my whole career, mainly it's been my main gig.

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and anything else has been a side thing. So last year was very interesting. This year, it's probably going to be more of a mix, but I think it's good creatively to push back and forth. If I was only doing work for hire stuff, I would get very, I'd probably be like, oh, Marvel, don't let me do this. And blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, which would be very frustrating. But when I can do whatever I want on my image book, then I think it's fine. I'll just put my energies into that.

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Or if something like, like I said, tried to promote Old Dog last year was really, really gruelling and hard on top of writing, drawing, colouring, designing every issue, so much work trying to push the book was a whole other set of work. Whereas now when I work for a higher job like Thunderbolt, Thundercats, sorry, I nearly said Thunderbolts, you know, a lot of that machine is taken care of. So there's benefits to both sides and disciplines. And I just feel fortunate I'm in a place where one kind of...

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fuels the other and the other one fuels fuels back, you know. Very well said. Very good answer at that. According to your Wikipedia, it said that you made your debut in 2006 with a title called Hero Killers. It won an Eagle Award for Favorite British Black and White Comic Book. So, I mean, from my perspective, I'm reading them like, wow, out the gate, you know, he's he's got an award winning, you know, comic book to his name. Did winning that award, I guess like.

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you the motivation to like, I mean, like how did that play into like your perspective and your hustle and things like that? I mean, you know, I hear that and I'm like, oh wow, that's like a really great achievement off the bat. He could have, you know, easily maybe rested on his laurel, but it sounded like you just continued to grind and, you know, do the work. I mean, what do you recall? Yeah, I mean, it sounds very prestigious. I mean, it was great that it happened, but I mean, the reality was I drew a book for free.

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you know, to get a portfolio, basically, you know, because I'd been going to British shows. I'd show my portfolio. I'd be thinking like, this is it. This is where I make it. And then it's like, no, that's not very good. And this is why it's not very good. He'd be like, oh, son of a... So it was, you know, this whole process of, you know, not being good enough. And, you know, but, you know, thankfully, Art College had set me up for that kind of disappointment. And what happened was I met a writer there, Andy Winter, who basically was doing his own small press books.

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self-published work. And he, I showed him my portfolio and he really liked it. And he said, he basically said, look, if you'd be interested, I'd like to write a story for you. I can't afford to pay you, but I will publish the book. So that's what happened. I went back to Limerick and I buckled down for a couple of months and I drew the 30 page one-shot that Andy had written. And yeah, he published it in time for the Bristol, maybe, no, for, I think, I think it was Brighton maybe the first time it was published.

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then he republished it for Bristol or whatever. But anyway, yeah, so it won, it basically won the Small Press Award, you know, black and white British books. It was a small press award basically. I mean, the Eagles weren't small press awards, but that was the small press category effectively. And yeah, that was really, really cool. I remember Andy had a really heartfelt speech about how the Eagle Awards meant so much to him. And I said something I thought was very funny that nobody laughed at. So.

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That set me up for the rest of my career pretty much. I just said, I said, thanks for those who, those who supported me. Thanks for the help and those who didn't, thanks for nothing. And I walked off the stage thinking everybody would laugh, but no, I just seemed like an asshole. You haven't been invited back since. Yeah. I never won an Eagle after that, but no, it was huge. It was amazing. I didn't think that would happen, but you know, like, you know, I had a lot of people kind of, you know, you could write in basically for the, to nominate. So like,

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A lot of people supported it and voted for it and to get the award was really, really cool. It was a great way to start a career, even though it's not like I literally made no money on it or anything like that. So it wasn't even my first job because I didn't get paid for it, but it was a great opportunity. I mean, I'm not complaining. Andy was very straight up. And it goes to show you sometimes there is, I'm all for, you should look after yourself and make sure you're getting paid, yada, yada. But there are...

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To do something for exposure is kind of a dirty word in our circles. You know, you see a lot of people going like, oh, exposure. Sometimes it is worth it for the exposure. You know, you just need to kind of make a calculated decision about like, what are the pros and cons here? I needed a portfolio piece. I had only done samples. I'd never had a published comic. This guy offered me a chance to be published and have a comic made. And then I did it. And I had a comic. That was the first big step for me. So.

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then for To With The Ward was great. But then that helped me get the next gig because I think classical comics were at the convention. Or I had an amazing with them anyway, but I can't remember exactly how it worked. But no, I got a gig drawing another small press comic based in Ireland actually, and then classical comics, which was kind of a bigger graphic novel. So I think it definitely helped give my career a jump start from the very beginning. All that

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Whatever gets you attention as an artist is good because there's so many talented people out there. Whatever gets you ahead. So that was 2006, Hero Killers. But looking at everything in the middle, you've done quite a lot in your career. And that's actually the understatement right there. I mean, just quickly kind of just spitballing some titles here. 28 Days Later for Boom Studios, Thunderbolt for Marvel, Deadpool, Moon Knight.

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Injection with Warren Ellis on Image Comics. I mean, just recently, Old Dog, Via Image, Old Dog, sorry, I think you are currently doing Alien for Marvel and 20th Century. I feel like I'm missing something major in between. I was Time Before Time. Time Before Time, thank you so much. Just ended, I think, yeah. Yeah, ended in November of 29 issues. Congratulations, by the way. Oh, thanks very much. When you think about that giant chunk of career and all these different titles, is there...

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And I have a feeling, I know what the answer will be, but is there one project that you feel, when you look back, that maybe has a more sentimental weight for you in terms of maybe like, you know, making you feel like you made it or you learn the most or, you know, it was just like a good moment in time and all of that? Like, what comes to mind as far as like a sentimental project? Well, I mean, they all, every one of them, something happened that helped me or figure things out, you know, and

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Starting at Marvel on Thunderbolts was a huge experience and I learned so much doing that. And then, you know, Northlanders, DC, every small gig was a step up and a great experience. And I'd have to say Moon Knight was the one that really, like, I was such a huge fan of Warren Ellis growing up and I'd read so much of his books and he was incredible. And he hadn't done comics in a long time, so when Moon Knight came around, that was a huge opportunity. And not only that, but

31:38
I got to basically own the visual language of the book, whereas I had been a guy, I just been, you know, I was on one book of Marvel and then another book of Marvel and that was great but I, you know, I was really itching to kind of step up creatively and really own a title and do some, do a signature piece of work. And Moon Knight did that for me, you know, and then it set me up for Injection with Warren and

32:02
I got a lot of respect and kudos from that book, which I think really helped my career in a big way. I mean, I learned so much in it too. Every bloody issue of that nearly murdered, nearly killed me. There was always something so challenging and really pushed me and I felt like I improved so much in a short space of time. That's not even mentioned in the TV show last year or whenever it came out. That doesn't even rate, honestly, compared to what it really did for...

32:32
my actual hands-on career. Even doing Old Dog recently was me doing an attempt to try and get trying to go back to that kind of punchy moody storytelling. So it's definitely, I feel like it made me at Marvel after a good few years. Artists seemed to put a lot of stock in it, especially younger artists tell me how much it had an impact. So I think in so many ways, it really kind of hit all the things I really wanted in a career.

33:00
provided the launch pad for everything else I was able to do afterwards. You know, I'm thinking to myself like, man, what was my first conscious exposure to your work? And I think at the time I was really into Thunderbolts. I think I was collecting that series by Jeff Park. I know you did like two issues, 148 and 149 around 2010. But I think it's definitely safe to say that I think you really put yourself on the map in my mind in the earlys of my head of canon with Moon Knight. And if I'm being honest, I want to say

33:29
That Warren Ellis run was the first time I ever picked up or read like a Moon Knight comic. Obviously, I was very familiar with Moon Knight. Grew up a Marvel kid, read a bunch of comics, but I never went out and just sought out like a Moon Knight comic or series. And I was actually working at the comic shop when that series launched. And honestly, it was part of like the Marvel Now launch. So it was a bunch of like new number ones. Yeah, so we were in the shop. I was working in the shop, like pushing new books. And it was just a good time to be working in the shop. It was like the image Renaissance.

33:58
It was, you know, Marvel Now. So there's a lot of jumping on points that I was recommending to people, but also like being recommended too. And that Moon Knight, I mean, how, I think we, yeah, we did an episode about that, about your run with Warren Ellis a couple episodes back when the Disney Plus show launched. But I just remember thinking, you know, how, even just revisiting it recently, it's gritty. It's just, it's smart. It's very, it's a very smart comic in my opinion. I think your compositions.

34:26
your framing, like just your knack for action is something to like be applauded. I wanted to give you those accolades and those flowers now that it is a series that is burned in my mind when I think of some of my favorite comic books. I think I was getting very antsy. Before that I did Venom and then Deadpool just beforehand. There were cool books to be. I really liked working on Deadpool specifically actually.

34:55
But, you know, I was like the third or four artists on the run. I never really got to... You do your own spin on the character, but it's always heavily based on who was literally just before you or started the series. Moon Knight was an issue one. It wasn't just like the new run. We got to basically reboot it from the ground up, have new visuals, new costumes. So it was everything. I was just really gagging to do something like that for a while.

35:22
So I think there was a lot of pent up creativity. I was waiting to just kind of like get out there. Yeah. And I remember working on the book and I was kind of worried, maybe I was going to be too mad and I kind of stopped myself and said, if I can't, if I can't go mental on a Warren Ellis book, then when can I, you know? Well said. So it was great. The book gave me permission to really just try stuff. I mean, look, a lot of it was like Warren's brilliant ideas, but I felt like he was basically constructing the ultimate portfolio piece for what I could do.

35:52
and hadn't had the opportunity. Like clearly I have an affinity for fight sequences, but I had never really done one like that before, but Warren gave me the room to do it. Or some of the other stuff, like it's, I feel like he just made little playgrounds for me and just went, off you go, do something there. And then the results were what they were. So yeah, I feel like it just unscrewed a certain level of creativity that I remember once we did that.

36:20
just being the next guy on another book just wasn't enough. Just doing a fill-in issue of Wolverine or something didn't have an appeal for me. We basically got to do a creator on comic, but the Marvel logo was on it. And I realized once that had happened, I'm like, I want more of this, not less of it. So doing Injection with Warren was the next obvious step. But now everything I've

36:50
You know, the closer it is to Moon Knight, the better, you know, like I don't want to just do a random issue. I want to, I want to, I want to build a story and a look and a visual language and do take a character and do something cool with them rather than just do a couple of adventures or something, you know? I mean, it's very like wanky of me to assume that's what I get to, should get to do now. But.

37:13
It is what I'm more interested in doing now. I feel like I put my time in the trenches at Marvel and now they know me and I've worked with them plenty, so I have a good relationship. So now I'm hoping I can create my own stuff and then I can go do work for hire stuff that is like, for example, Alien. I know I didn't draw it, or actually wait, I am drawing it right now, some of us. I like taking a franchise or a book and doing my take on it. I'm more interested in that than say...

37:44
just drawing some issues. And if I get to write and draw them, all the better too. So that's kind of where I am in my career, where I feel like it's more interesting to me, it's more rewarding to me, and I also open the door to work with other people, which I love. But Moon Knight is the one that kind of, I feel, opened those doors for me. That's fair. And just for clarity for anyone listening that, maybe this is going over their heads, but.

38:08
It's safe to say that you and Warren Ellis are essentially the creators of the Mr. Knight persona of Moon Knight, which we got to see. Not, not a lot of, but we did get to see him in the Moon Knight Disney Plus series as portrayed by Oscar Isaac, right? It comes up a few times. Michael Lark drew Moon Knight in a suit in an issue of Secret Avengers that Warren, that Warren wrote. But when we were doing Moon Knight afterwards, like that.

38:34
we created the character of Mr. Knight. I mean, Moran wanted him in a suit and we did some variations on it, but what we went with was that character is from that series. Although, I mean, what they did in the show wasn't very... I was at my sister's thought and she's like, is he a dork in your comic? I'm like, no, he's really badass. Yeah, he's a badass. Yeah. It's like, so, you know, but to see that visual in real life was...

39:01
Like I said, compared to what the book did for me, I really don't care about the series, to be honest. But it was pretty cool that it happened and it's pretty cool to have made something that has entered the pop culture. Having figures made from it and stuff like that, like, I mean, it is cool. I do appreciate it, but I just feel like that's like winning the lottery and you can't really...

39:30
You can't plan for that and you can't, you know, I took as much. I really pushed the hell out of old dog when, when, when that show was coming out. I'm like, this is a nice opportunity. Yeah, exactly. You know, so, so I appreciate any opportunities that come my way, but, um, uh, you know, to me, the book is the book and, uh, you know, I enjoyed the series for what it was, but, um, you know, it's, it's not going to change my life or anything, you know? Yeah. I have respect hearing that actually a lot, hearing that, you know,

39:57
Your bread and butter being comic books and that series having such a big impact. It's cool that it isn't like the opposite, which could could have easily been the case, right? Well, I well, actually, probably not, because I've heard all of the horror stories when it comes to all of that live adaptation. But it's cool that, you know, your bread and butter and that series in particular, which, you know, let's be real at the time, you know, as acclaimed as it was.

40:20
the most part was kind of like a fringe series, at least in the shop I worked at. Like it was only a handful of people that were reading Moon Knight, but if you were reading Moon Knight, you know, you knew. You knew what was up with it. Yeah, it was cool to be doing the, like, you know, it's not, it wasn't an indie book. It was Warren Falkenell's writing it, so it had definitely had cache, but it was like, you know, I kept hearing about like creators trying to get a look at the PDF before it came out. Oh, that's cool. Like I think I heard...

40:47
Hickman was looking to read it first. As a guy who was just coming up as an artist, you're like, oh wow, like all these people want to read. And then it wasn't for me, it was for Warren, but I think everyone was excited about what Warren was going to do. And we did something, it was like a cult book, but it sold really, really well. It wasn't like just a cult that nobody read it, but it wasn't Spider-Man. But because it wasn't Spider-Man, we could go weird. And because we went weird, people got something out of it.

41:14
was something really cool about doing the weird book that everybody appreciated more because it was doing something different. And again, I think that that was definitely beneficial to me because people, I think, think people bought the book for Warren and then they kind of came out of it going like, oh, just that, just shall we guys pretty cool. You know, again, it just helped me hugely. And yeah, like it's cool to do the weird book, so if you can, you know,

41:43
Return of Wolverine at Marvel, which is a big book, but no one really ever mentions it to me. It's always Moon Knight still to this day, which I think shows how doing a bigger book doesn't necessarily equate huge success. Again, not that Moon Knight was a small little book or anything, but in the scheme of things it was definitely a bit of a wild swing. Again, those projects tend to be the ones that really...

42:13
really kind of work for you, you know? How often do people bring up, like fans and colleagues and other characters, how often do they bring up your covers? It feels like you've drawn basically every single character in the Marvel universe. I guess it's like the Mandela effect. There's a lot of titles that I think of, that I associate your name with, but then I'm like, oh, he just did the covers, but the covers are so damn good. You know, he might as well have drawn. That was a bit of a problem because then.

42:38
I really loved working on those covers, but then I ended up doing a Punisher series later that didn't get published. And for the covers I was stressed out because I'm like, I really did the best Punisher covers I could do and I have no idea how to do Punisher covers for my own book now, you know? How do I make them? Because I want to do better ones for me. And so I had a whole problem there. But no, I mean, the cool thing about covers is you do get to draw characters you don't normally get to do. I've drawn Spider-Man in a comic twice.

43:08
like in two panels out of like 12 years I've been at Marvel, 13 years I've been at Marvel. And I've drawn him maybe five times on a cover. So, you know, there's something you just don't get to really touch that much. You know, I drew Blade, a Blade cover recently, you know, that's the first time I ever really drew him, maybe second time. So like, even though with covers you do get to touch a lot of characters, you don't really get anywhere near otherwise.

43:37
there's still blind spots, you know, but, but no, that is also really exciting because sometimes you'll do like a, I do like a designy cover or a story cover or a kind of a pinup cover depends. It depends on the brief, whether it's a variant or it's a, you know, those Punisher covers where story covers, you know, added a certain approach to them and it would depend on what happens to the story. The covers will be basically pinups where it's not story related at all, some are more design, but I get to play around a lot with covers of Marvel.

44:06
I've actually, I counted them there before the end of the year and I'm on like 260 now, something like that. Wow. Covers of Marvel, which I didn't, like there was a while there where I couldn't get any. Huh. Impressive. I just couldn't get on covers of Marvel and now I've done this much, it's a little bit mental, but I guess people like them. Yeah.

44:24
Otherwise, I would stop asking, I guess. All right. Real quick before we talk. I promise we're going to be talking about ThunderCats, people. I promise. I got one question in that regard. Oh yeah, ThunderCats. Two hundred and sixty plus covers. Niedrich Reaction, when you think of like some of your favorite or best covers at Marvel would immediately come to mind. It was one Wolverine cover I did years ago where he was sitting under a cherry blossom tree, which the tree itself was a lot of work. But him, he's only really that size in the cover.

44:54
sometimes you want the character to be taking up all the image. But I went the other way with it. And I wouldn't say it's the most complex cover I've ever done, but I'd say that one really stands out. I think a lot of people really like that one. The Moon Knight one, which is just two eyes into the easiest fucking cover I've ever done in my life. But I think the only reason that even happened was because Warren said, that's the one.

45:23
I don't think that would have happened either, but because it was a ballsy move, I just thought this isn't much work technically, but I think it's the strongest image. I think it's the ones where it's not necessarily... Sometimes it's like I drew a banshee cover a few years ago where it's just a pinup shot really, and I drew the cliffs of Moher behind him, which is where I'm from. That was just like childhood box ticking, pure fan.

45:53
satisfaction. So that's really cool. Those moments are really cool. But I think it's the ones where you're like, I'd like to just try something weird and different here, and it clicks. Those are, I think, ultimately the more satisfying ones. Even though there may not have been like a lot, there may not be the most technically skilled covers. Sometimes those are the ones really,

46:22
I do try and think outside the box as much as I can. But also just, you know, doing that all the time can be just as redundant as doing a straight out. Like a lot of my covers will be like the character in the middle, you know, right set in the middle. And I realize that's kind of like a bit of a cover trope of mine. But I'm also aware of it. So I try and not do that sometimes. But sometimes it's just the best. You know, like I did a Darth Vader cover there last year, Black, White and Red.

46:52
It was just, it's just him standing on the snow and clouds above him. And, you know, there's a little, there's an element of illustration with the clouds that took a lot of work, but you know, he's fairly small in it and it's just a powerful composition and you know, there's a nice mix of technique and composition there that those are, I think the covers I like the most. You know, yeah, I would describe you in those words, out of the box and technical. I was looking through all of the Punisher covers and one right now that I just have not stopped thinking about.

47:21
And maybe because it ties into all this dentist crap I've been having to deal with, but there's a really cool Punisher. Oh, yeah, exactly. Yeah, like a cover where it's like his teeth, but one of his front teeth is like an all black, the skull logo. And I'm like, man, Declan doesn't have the same two, doesn't have the same two covers, or none of the covers have like the same feeling. Now, granted, from your perspective, you're able to hone in on, like you said, certain tropes, but...

47:47
Yeah, I guess there's a reason why I associate you with so many characters or titles. You know, some of those covers are so ingrained in my head or have left such an impact and impression on me. Look, man, that's what I want. Like as a cover artist, it's my job, literally, like you to judge it by, you judge the book by its cover. You literally do that. Yeah. If I get to be a series cover artist, I like to have a certain approach, you know, like those Punisher covers where the skull has to be on there.

48:16
and ideally not show, not actually show the Punisher, like hide in as much as I can, have the skull be the identifying thing. Yeah. And there'd be a story element. So I would, I would read the story synopsis and try find a visual to kind of glom onto and come up with a way of having the skull in there. So that was basically my, my ethos with those covers. That's cool. You know, and if it's just a variant cover, I'd probably just do a pinup shot or something kind of more designy.

48:46
But even those covers, Punisher covers were fairly, the compositions were, I would try and make them bold. I don't get to do too many series covers, but if I do, I try to have a certain, I don't know if you've ever read Dead Man Logan, Ed Brisson and Mike Anderson? I don't remember those covers, but they had the logo on the side and the illustration would be limited and it would just be three colors. And that was my thing with that. I'm like, okay, the blood will run down the logo.

49:17
more every issue and the cover will be specific to the story, but I'm going to keep it down to three colours. So when you walk in, you'll recognise the Dead Man Logan cover every time it's on the stand, but you'll notice it's not the last one because it's different. Same with Moon Knight. Moon Knight, like half the image was the logo and the rest of it was just a drawing. So I want you to walk in and you will recognise the Moon Knight cover right there because it stands out.

49:47
It's different enough where you don't think it's the previous issue. That can be kind of hard if you have a very, very heavy visual identity for the covers. You don't, like I don't want to say who, but there was one fantastic creator had a book out at Image and I loved the design sense. It was very designy, but I could never tell which issue it was because it just always kind of looked like the same one. So I think you can, you can, you can kind of lose people that way too. But yeah, but.

50:13
generally I do variant covers like something pops up it's like Deadpool or what I do I did Deadpool last month and I did um see the cover I did.

50:24
even remember. I did it like two weeks ago. I can't even remember. How many books, man? Yeah, I do about two covers a month probably for Marvel, maybe three in a good month. What the hell? Oh, Blade. I did a Blade cover. Yeah, a Blade cover and a Dead Will cover in the same month. And they're both very different from each other. But they're both variants, so they're not really story related. I do like doing series covers because I get to kind of have

50:51
you know, come up with a kind of a stronger visual. I like doing that if I can. But anyway, yes, sorry. I'm just you just wind me up, man. I'll just keep talking. Oh, good. It's all fascinating stuff. How about we go ahead and pivot to talking about Thundercats, which issue one hits shops February 7th. So if you haven't already asked your local comic shop to add it to your pull list, go ahead and get to doing that as soon as you can. Well, actually, by the time this episode comes out, it'll be a week before issue one hit shops.

51:21
Hopefully you already have. Yeah, if I see just if we see power was yesterday, but from what I hear, it's there's a lot of orders. So I'd say you'd probably be able to get one. But you know, I say this is somebody who does their own books to do tell your local retailer. Otherwise, you know, they can't read your mind. And you're going to come in looking for ThunderCats. And they're going to be like, what? You didn't say you wanted ThunderCats. And we sold out. I don't have any copies of it. And they're like, no, just kidding. I've got three covers here. Which one do you want? I like the way that story ends.

51:50
All right. Well, I guess the very obvious question here, Declan, is how did you land the opportunity to write ThunderCats and how like how long has that been in the making and how did you get paired with the artist Drew Moss? I wish it was a very interesting story, but I was at a small comic convention in Cork where I met up with a lot of the Irish lads who I hadn't seen in ages. I got very drunk, went back to my hotel and had an email from Nate Cosby asking if I had interest in drawing the ThunderCats.

52:19
and I just went, and emailed. Then the next morning, I woke up and was like, did that happen? Yeah, I looked at my email. I had accepted the offer. I know Nate a long time. Nate was working at Marvel when I was breaking in, so I got to know him at the time. S1 CW Really quick, just for anyone that might know, Nate Cosby is editor at Dynamite?

52:48
gargoyles and ducktails and like he's been doing a lot of stuff at Dynamite now for a good while but when I met him he was he was Marvel so I just know him a long time and he was of him it was him Yeah, I did a James Bond. I wrote a James Bond story for him a few years ago. It was a one-shot and he's asked the odd I do the odd cover for him here and there but um and He did he'd asked me to work on Dynamite

53:16
project a couple of years ago, but it didn't work out in the end. So he's always checked in here and there, but I wasn't really expecting anything. And I certainly wasn't expecting that email. I loved ThunderCats as a kid. I didn't even know they'd done any comics, to be honest. I would have been too young when Marvel were doing them, and I think I was in college when the Wildstorm comics came out, so I didn't even know they had done them as comics. So when it popped up, I'm like, this will be a cool, cool gig.

53:46
And so I took it and I think the, the license had just opened up. So basically it was like, we need to start now. And so Drew came on very fast and I was a fan of Drew's stuff for years. I actually drew a variant cover for his image series Copperhead. That's the first time I saw his stuff and I really, really liked it. And, and weirdly, we just never talked. I don't know how we know a lot of the same people and we just never had any communication.

54:15
I really, really liked his stuff. It turned out he liked my stuff too, which is nice because I wouldn't like it if he didn't. We just hit it off straight away and he's just banging out these fantastic pages. It's fun because I'm trying to write stuff that were images. I was writing a scene today and I'm like, oh, that's going to be cool. I'd like to draw that, but I'm not going to draw it. He's going to draw it. But I always feel like if-

54:45
If there's moments where I feel like I'd like to draw it, that's going to be good for, for Drew, you know? I mean, and you know, it worked out. I mean, you've seen some of the preview pages, the scene, there's a page where he goes thunder, thunder, thunder, thunder, and the next page. You know, like I remember was I was writing that I'm like, oh, that's yeah, I want to, I want to give a page for the thunder, thunder, thunder, you know, you could do it. You could do it as three small panels on another page where lots of stuff is happening. But I'm like, no, no, no. If.

55:14
If I haven't read Tundra, if I want to read a Tundra Cat story and I haven't seen one in years, I want that build up. You know what's coming next. But give it a page for those three swings of the sword. And I just know when things are clicking like that, I'm like, no, this is going to be, I know I'd love to draw this page. And then when Drew drew it, it was, and even tweeted, like he did a cool thing where he moved the panel borders a little bit so the sword kind of pops out.

55:43
really nice. I liked that a lot. It's nice. I feel like the electricity is going through the script into Drew and out through the pages. It's been a really cool collaboration, I have to say. I really enjoyed it. I like my art dark and mysterious and Drew can do moody without it being drab or, you know, like it's not, it's not, there's definitely a darker tone to this.

56:11
Tundra Cats, but it's not like a grim and gritty Tundra Cats. He does the big kind of superhero shots and he does the great moody black pyramid location. It's great. I think Drew had just done a gargoyle series for Nate at Dynamite. I think they've worked together loads, which is why it was Nate's idea for Drew. Straight away, I was like, yeah, he'll be great. And that was it.

56:40
plot, you know, like how you approached, you know, writing such a beloved franchise. Did you feel any pressure or do you feel any pressure bringing ThunderCats like a modern audience and taking that on knowing the legacy and the history of the ThunderCats? Like, I feels like I'm writing X-Men, to be honest. Like, I feel like I'm writing like melodrama and action and, you know, you know, character stuff. So Drew can do all that. And, you know, doing a team book as well is a different challenge for me.

57:10
But my approach to the book is like, it's the animated series, but with a bit of a twist. My initial take was to do a more sci-fi kind of take on the concept, but then I rewatched the old cartoon and I'm like, this is actually very sci-fi already. A little fantasy, big, it's kind of a superhero cartoon really.

57:35
I would say the comic is really does touch into all that stuff, probably slightly less fantasy but I wanted, I think Drew's redesigns for the characters are a very good kind of visual signature for what the book is, which is taking the original cartoon and just tweaking it a bit. And I'm trying to know what the book is, it's kind of more centered on Lionel and him having to kind of figure out how to become a leader.

58:05
immediately become an adult. It feels like just five minutes ago he was a child. Now he is the leader of the Thundercats. He's expected to know what to do and he doesn't really know what he's doing. He's trying to lead. He's trying to be what the Thundercats need him to be, but also realize that he's just going to make mistakes. A lot of it is kind of dealing with how his relationship has changed with the other Thundercats. Meanwhile, there are some mutants around and there is somebody called Mumrah.

58:35
and they'll all come into the story too, you know. So it's kind of, when I was writing it and when I drew the cover to the second issue, I realized like I'm kind of doing it like 90s X-Men here, which of course is ridiculously fun. So yeah, so I don't want to give away too much more of the story, but basically it's not a retelling of the cartoon, but it is, if you're a fan of the original, there'll be little nods in there that you'll recognize, but if you're expecting to see

59:05
classic scenes redone. That's not what I'm interested in. I'm trying to do a kind of a more streamlined, lost in space kind of story where they've landed and they're trying to figure out how to survive. So it's kind of like taking the first day's year one approach. I think I read somewhere someone describe it like that. I'm like, huh, I don't know how they do that. But yeah, actually, it is kind of a year one in that. You know, when I watched the original rewatch the original episodes, I was like, I feel like it just jumped.

59:35
like a lot of interesting stuff at the start. So I was kind of more interested in that, like how they're going to find their feet in this new world and, you know, story behind third earth and why are they there and who is mum around, all of that kind of stuff. So I think the cool thing about it is I have a lot of room, like most series you get five issues, but like I have a full year planned out on this book. So I can kind of seed stuff for later, which is really.

01:00:03
is really as a storyteller it's great to have that liberty. Like I had a little bit with Alien as well. I knew I had 10 issues to play with so I was able to tell a story that would be more satisfying in 10 chapters rather than five and then something completely different. And I am a little worried about Hunter Kess because the fan base are very passionate. When I was offered it I'm like, oh well who really... ah there's some old school fans, I'm sure they'd like a new comic. And then I was at New Comic Con like you were when it was announced and

01:00:32
I got a lot of people going like, I would love to do that. I was like, oh, right, okay. Right, I didn't realize there was some, it was that passionate a fan base. But I do think alien was a good practice because when I took that gig too, I wasn't a massive alien head. Like I've seen all the films and everything, and I liked them, but I wasn't hardcore. But everybody of my generation was, I soon found out. So I had like lots of normie friends, like who were not really comic readers, but they would read a new comic and they were like, don't.

01:01:01
not mess this up." I was like, uh-oh. I thought superhero fans were passionate, but who? No, but it seemed to go okay. I haven't gotten any... No one's tried to murder me yet. Not for Alien, anyway. But no, that was a cool experience. I really liked working on it and it feels like Tundra Cats is another opportunity to do that with a different type of story, but being able to take a property and find my way, or find my approach.

01:01:31
and build that book with a great creative team like Andrea, Ricardo, and Elian with Trina and Ruth. Like I love, I was really happy with how that book came together. And I feel like with that ending, I'm now getting to do it all over again with a new world. So I do really like that. I mean, I like doing my own stuff and I like drawing my own stuff. But it is really cool to come up with stuff and just give it to other people. And you know, we all come up with something interesting together. Like I do, I love-

01:01:59
doing solo stuff comics wise, but I also love the collaborative nature of so much of it too. Hearing you talk about the passionate fan base, I think some of the most passionate fans out there are fans of like the 80s cartoons and properties. I'm thinking like Transformers, you know, I'm thinking TMNT, G.I. Joe, Thundercats falls into that. Like those are some of the most passionate fans out there. And part of me thinks it's because it was such a

01:02:24
incredible time for animation and you know, toys and like that kind of synergy and things like that. It got me thinking of when I had a chance to talk to Daniel Warren Johnson about transformers, you know, transformers being a huge, you know, when you talk about passionate fans, like I don't think you'd be hard pressed to find any more passionate fans and transformer fans. And I'm sorry, you're talking to who? Uh, Daniel Warren Johnson. Never heard of him. I love that you had me pause.

01:02:52
for a nice little dig. I like that. Yeah, no, I'm sick of hearing about Daniel, Daniel Warren Johnson. He's so fucking talented. And he's incredible. Like I just, I'm so jealous of everything he is and does. But no, no, I like the Transformers stuff has been fantastic like that. I think it's, I think, well, to your point about the fandom, like, I mean, I think those shows were a mass audience. So a lot of people wasn't, I mean,

01:03:22
you run the risk of having crazy people I guess but those weren't niche successes you know like those were massive smash hit animated shows that millions of people watched so you're gonna have like passionate fan bases for sure. I do think it's interesting how IP stuff is kicking off right now like the turtles have been doing gangbusters and Daniel taking over Transformers and stuff and you know I'm aware of like...

01:03:51
the older properties kind of coming back in comics. I mean, I didn't have that in mind when I took on Thundercats, but I think it's interesting that there does seem to be some genuine excitement for properties of that time again, for whatever reason. It's interesting. Where was I going with that Daniel Warren Johnson thing? I guess... Sorry, I totally cut you off. I'm sorry. You were talking about fans. Well, I think more so specifically, he said something pretty similar to what you just said about, you know, he enjoys doing...

01:04:20
the creator own stuff, but sometimes it's nice to take on these projects and almost have like a guardrail. You know, like you know you can't go completely outside color outside of the the lines, but you know there's a little bit of security and safety in that. But you know he's still able to like bring his signature look and feel to it and you know how we tell stories. So it sounds like you've kind of given that same opportunity as well. It sounds like you've got a year's worth of stories so far. So is it safe to assume that this will be a long form?

01:04:49
Comic, is it going to go on for a while? As far as I know, this book is ongoing. I think Dynamite said this is ongoing. I haven't planned past the year, so I don't know if Dynamite will be sick of me in the year and want somebody else, or if they'd have to have me keep going. Honestly, I've never come onto a book as a writer in this scenario before. Everything's always been limited. So.

01:05:14
I pitched basically a year long story, like about 12 to 15 issues. It'll be 15 issues is what I had planned. So I guess it'll depend how the series goes. If the series, I mean, I know that the orders are over 100,000 or something. Like, holy crap. I doubt issue two will be that, but if it keeps doing well, I'm sure, I would imagine the book is just going to keep going. I don't know if they'll keep me, but.

01:05:41
I at least do know that I have a whole year work. Like I, you know, I have the end of the year. Basically the end of the year will be a climax story-wise and with others along the way, but it's nice. It's been really exciting to be able to plan something more long term than with a lot of other books you basically you started and then you finish it within six, five or six issues. So this is actually really liberating. It's really, it's really fun to work on.

01:06:09
I want to go back to the pre-orders. You know, at the time of this recording, you know, over a hundred thousand, which is no small feat. That is awesome. And it got me thinking how last episode or the last full episode I did was an end of year, kind of look back at the year of 2023 in comic books with my local comic shop owner, who's also the sponsor of the show, Ben Kingsbury. And we got to talking about, you know, some of the best books that came out. When we got to the topic of

01:06:38
comics coming out in 2024 that he was most excited for or he thought was gonna be kind of a blockbuster hits, Thundercats was brought up and he went on and on and he had glowing praise about it. So when I told him that, hey, I'm interviewing Declan Shelby today, he was really excited and he submitted a voicemail and a question for you that I think is applicable considering we're talking about Thundercats and the success and the hype so far. I wanna play this for you. Hey, Declan.

01:07:06
Ben K. Gotham City Limit, Jacksonville, Florida here. Thanks so much for being here. I've got a two part question for you, but before I jump into that, I just wanted to say congratulations on the overwhelming FOC ordering success of Thundercats number one. It's been by far one of the most talked about series coming out in 2024 in my shop and on our social media platforms. And I speak for everyone here in Jacksonville when we say we can't wait.

01:07:33
Jumping into the comic itself. There are a ton of variant covers including that awesome sea cover you did yourself What was your inspiration behind that cover and then secondly? Besides yours out of the remaining Variant covers for Thundercats number one foils and all which one are you most looking forward to to adding to your personal collection? Well, I'm Ben K representing Gotham City Limit, Jacksonville, Florida, and I'll leave you to answer here

01:08:02
Remember short box nation to always take it to the limit. Big shout out to Ben. That was a really good question. Nice, but I like his energy. That's great. I mean, man, like his fans, his readers must or his customers must really like coming to the shop to get that energy. I can almost guarantee you of those a hundred thousand pre-orders, at least 90,000 of them came from Ben alone. He is the ultimate comic salesman.

01:08:27
Well, that's great. Well, in that case, I would ask Ben that those who are coming in for ThunderCats to let them know about Old Dog Volume 1, which is out now. And sorry, I just had to get that plug in there because that's my baby from last year. Like I wrote it, drew it, colored it, everything, you know, so it's only 10 bucks. So, you know, it's not, you know, it's just ThunderCats and Old Dog right underneath it for 10 bucks. You can't really go wrong. But yeah, thanks so much, man. And like.

01:08:54
It's always great. Like that kind of excitement from retailers is great. I know a lot of retailers, a lot of them are lovely. A lot of them are narcy bollocks who just love to complain for good and bad reasons. But no, it's always great here. And I don't know, I think we've a retailer has that kind of level of excitement. I think it goes downstream. You need that, you know, which is great. So thanks, Ben. I'm sorry. So his question was. So the first question was, what was the inspiration behind your cover, which is the sea cover?

01:09:24
Okay, well, I would say necessity is the mother of all invention. Sometimes you don't really, you just have to run with what you've got. Nate offered me Tondercats to write. I said yes. He said you want to do covers. I'm like, cool. It's like, all right, I need one next week, pretty much. So I had to turn around, but we hadn't done any, I hadn't worked, well, I hadn't figured out what I'm doing yet. We didn't even have an artist to do the re-

01:09:53
I think there was talk of me doing the redesigns, but I just really didn't have time because I was, you know, working on everything else. And I figured it would be better for the series artists to do the designs because they're the ones actually have to draw... Excuse me, sorry. They're the ones who actually have to draw them. Pet peeve of mine is you see people do designs for a comic and they don't have to draw it, so they'll do crazy complicated costume design. And the guys who draw the bloody thing is there like, you know, once they kill themselves. I knew I had to draw a cover and I had no...

01:10:23
I didn't know what the character was going to look like yet, but I knew I knew roughly what he would look like. And I was also trying to think what's like with anything, what's the most iconic image I could think of with this Punisher skull? You know, if it's a shield, it's the shield logo. Like, so what is the thing that will grab you with Tundracats? Well, it's the Tundracat logo, which is one of the best logos ever, ever made. Like that thing is this is I think that makes the cartoon half the time that

01:10:51
Thundercast icon is incredible. So, okay, that's a strong image. It's right on the sword. What else does the sword do? Sight beyond sight. I'm like, okay, I could kind of draw a line without drawing line. Oh, and have that, that, that, that, that icon right in the middle. So basically, yeah, that's what I worked out. I worked out an image where I can kind of show line. Oh, but like clearly like draw the hell out of the sword, make that clear and wash out the color in the red from the, from the site beyond sites.

01:11:21
that would give us breathing room to actually figure out what everything's going to look like afterwards. That's why the second cover is like I drew them all properly in all their costumes, looking cool and moody because we knew what they looked like by then. But originally Nate needed a cover for the announcement in time for New York Comic Con, which was like two weeks away. On top of everything else, I was already very busy. I had to come up with a

01:11:50
of like an outline pitch for Warner Brothers and draw that cover. So yeah, I needed to do it fast. So I had to come up with something that would grab your attention and wouldn't be... I mean, don't get me wrong, it's not like it was a fast cover to do, but it wasn't as complicated as issue two. You can see how complicated that is. So that's my honest answer for how that first cover came around. You know? For lack of a better term, you spit this out and it's like...

01:12:19
It hits all the right beats for what you want out of a thunder cat, especially like being a first issue, like reintroduction. It's like, why not hit them with like the most iconic image? But like I said, like necessity is the mother of all invention. If I had more time, I might have done something more complicated that was far less impactful. I love how clean it is. Yeah. You know, yeah, like it's like if I had more time, I might have done a worse cover, you know, just because something needs to be done fast doesn't mean it's going to necessarily be better. It forced me to be like, what is the most powerful?

01:12:49
iconic thing I could come up with. Like issue two, ThunderCats cover, I personally, I really like because it's more technically developed. I just feel like it came out exactly how I wanted to and I really gave it loads of time to make it look really nice. I really like the third one sitting right here, but you can see it. It's a tease. But that's the payoff. But I just felt the first... Look, Moon Knight. Moon Knight actually is a kind of a similar cover. It's the eyes.

01:13:18
the logo on the thing. I find those covers are... And also it's a little mysterious too, because it was for the announcement. So I think it was enough of a tease of Image to get you excited without the delivery of everything. I think that can work really well too. So yeah, it had to be done really fast. It still took me a bit of time, but it was more economical than other covers could

01:13:48
would be the first cover, I think it would be that. Because it was that, I think, I think Lucas, what is Lucas Perello? I can't remember his name. I think there was one of them. S1 05 I think I'm saying. KM That's it. Yeah, his cover was done. But if you notice his cover is classic line, no, it's not the redesign. So that was done in time for the announcement too. I didn't want to draw, I wanted to draw Drew's one. Because I feel it's important that that's what we see. And

01:14:16
So, sorry. So that's the first one. Sorry, Ben. That's a very long-winded answer, but it's the truth. Whereas one of my favorite ones, I was looking at all of them there the other day, the Jay Lee one is, I really like the Jay Lee one. That's really cool. Yeah. You can't go wrong with a Jay Lee cover, you know? Yeah. That one especially though. I just, I've always liked Jay Lee stuff, but that cover really, that made me go, man, I got to do a really good team cover. I think that's the reason.

01:14:46
I put so much into the second cover because that one really got me. So you've got, as far as other variant covers for issue one, you've got David Nakayama, Lucia Parello, Jay Lee, June Chung, and then Ivan Tao. Yeah, I mean, I love the David Nakayama one as well. That's lovely, actually. I remember because he had more time than I did for that first cover. That means I could do as well as good as him.

01:15:16
to explain why his is a very clear shot of the whole team. But I love that one, especially because it's the first image we saw of Drew's designs for the cover. That came in before Jay's. So I really like that one. I think it's fantastic. But I've seen all the covers. Nate sent me all the covers yesterday. There's a Savage Mahmoud Azraa one. There's a Frank Cho one that looks great. I think they're all retailer covers, you know, but there's some really, really cool ones.

01:15:45
It's actually hard to pick them up. I'm trying to stick with issue one now, you know, or maybe mine without the logo because they're doing those as well. They're doing the Virgin ones. Actually, I do quite like Virgin covers. I like seeing the art with no title at all. I always get a kick out of those. Or my black and white ones. So, you know, there's those.

01:16:05
You sound like that David Chappelle is to get, who's your top five favorite rappers? Dylon, Dylon, Dylon. In this case, Declan, Declan, Declan. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Dylon. All solid choices. You're too close. Yeah, you're too close, Mon. What are you most excited for, for people to read ThunderCats? Is there a particular issue that you just cannot wait for people to get to? Is there maybe a moment, I guess without spoiling anything, like what are you most excited for people to?

01:16:31
to get out of Thundercats or an issue to get to or something like that? Is your 12 route, I mean, issue 15, probably because that's where it'll all build to. I mean, not all of us. I kind of have it structured as three arcs. So the first will be how they're mad at surviving and then kind of dig into some of the characters and then kind of pay off stuff near the end and let that be the first year. I guess issue one.

01:16:59
I really want everyone to see what Drew's doing. But then again, actually, I might have shown half the issue online now. Really, you can probably read it already. I think the end of the first issue, we have a bit of a cliffhanger that I don't think anyone's going to see coming, which I'm hoping that'll catch people in a good, surprising way. Once you've read issue one, you'll get a sense of what the book is.

01:17:28
After that it's more about, I guess for me, it's about building on the characters and giving the audience a little treat along the way here and there. So I think every issue will hopefully have something that's, you know, if you're a new reader it's going to be, oh, this is cool. But if you're an older reader, you'd be like, oh, you know, I know this. You know, without, I don't want one to undercut the other. So it's always, always trying to make sure, you know, there's character stuff and there's

01:17:57
action stuff. I want Drew to draw cool sequences that audiences are going to go, oh, this guy, this is a cool action sequence. But to be invested in the characters and hopefully reignite people's passion for the characters, but also accept that this isn't exactly what they know and are long for this new ride. I think issue one will be the thing that will decide that really. And people will decide whether they're into it or not.

01:18:27
Oh god, I'm now making me worried. Declan, you're in good hands. You're in good hands. Look, Ben's going to sell these books for you, all right? So he's got you covered, at least down here. Declan, I want to take a quick detour from all of this creative talk and talking, Thundercats and comics, and take a almost maybe... Yeah, what a lot of bollocks. Fuck that. Yeah, fuck comic books. Wait, what? No. Yeah. You know, I reached out to Ben, who was very excited that you were going to be on the show.

01:18:55
And then I reached out to someone else that I knew would also be very excited that you were coming on the podcast. And I asked this particular person who's a mutual friend of ours to submit something for you, right? Something fun that would, you know, uh, maybe derail the conversation in a good way and they came through. So I'm gonna play this for you. And I think you might get a kick out of it. Hey, botter. Hey Declan, it's David Harper here. And I'm a big fan of both of your work, but I actually have a really important question to ask Declan. And it relates to some shocking news.

01:19:24
Apparently Starfleet is real and perhaps unbelievably, they're recruiting exclusively from Irish comic creators and retailers to form the main bridge crew for the launch of the USS Enterprise and Declan, you are actually the person they've turned to to guide them. So my question is, who would be on that bridge crew? I need a captain, XO, Khan, security, communications and tactical and yes, you can pick yourself. Bonus question, who would be the first person to be assimilated by the Borg?

01:19:53
And why would it be Steven Mooney? Thanks. Big shout out to David Harbert from Off Panel for submitting that. It's very good. That is very good. And I was going to go, ah, but can I nominate myself? But he even got me in there. And the problem is I wouldn't trust any of those gobshites to run a ship. And I did play a video game with Steven Mooney and...

01:20:22
other friend of ours, Jamie, a Starfleet game and it was an absolute disaster because none of us could really do the job or just give out to each other the whole time.

01:20:33
see. Well, I'd have to make myself captain because I don't trust the rest of them. I'd make Moony the XO, but he'd undermine me all the time. Like he'd want somebody to push back sometimes, but no, he would do it too much. Yeah. So no, no, he's, um, let me see. Oh, I see this. I feel like I need some time to really work on this. Okay. Will Sliney and communications because he knows what he's doing there.

01:21:01
He'd be on, yeah, he'd be communications. I'd put, oh man, see again, Nate Stockman, I wouldn't trust him. Oh, this is too good a question. It's been taking too long. I really feel, I feel like I really need some time to work on this. I mean, this is one hell of a surprise question on Pop That. We've been talking for almost two hours and you have been masterful with all of your responses. Leave it to David Harbord as such a good and difficult question. Just throw you for a loop.

01:21:27
I actually am going to think about this for a long time. I'll just throw out some fast ones just to answer the question. But I put with the acknowledgement that I am going to revise this later in my mind. And but I would put this. Oh, man, I wouldn't trust Mooney anywhere. Helm. I put him on Helm because this could just tell him what to do. And you'd have to do it. And who'd be the doctor? And Tom's Stephen Thompson on science. Stephen Byrne would be.

01:21:56
I'd make him first officer. I'd trust him. I guess maybe Derek Landy. I'd make him maybe second, third officer on Ops. He'd be good, I think. I'm just even trying to think of all the people in Irish creators now and I've drawn a blank. It's been... That would be the main crew, but I actually, I read...

01:22:19
really think I need to spend some time on this, but that's what I got right now. That's my best. I'm sorry. Do you want to take his bonus question, which I might do a poor job of recapping that, but it was who would be the first one to be assimilated by the Borg? Oh, yeah, yeah. Moony, because he's basically an Android anyway, or Cyborg. He has no human emotions. And I just shove him in the way to make some room for the rest of the UA team. He's right,

01:22:48
No one would even notice anyway that he'd be assimilated, and he would help me get away from the Borg. So, I mean, listeners, if you haven't caught any of this, if none of this makes sense, Declan here is a huge, from what David told me, you are a ginormous Star Trek fan, and he mentioned that you have a Christmas sweater that also doubles as a pajama set or something like that? No, it's not pajamas. It's a Christmas jumper. Oh, a jumper. It's the red uniform from Next Generation.

01:23:18
Both me and myself and Moony and our another friend of ours have the same one that we wear for Christmas. Do you have any claim to fame when it comes to Star Trek? Whether that was maybe meeting someone from the cast, attending like a convention, do you own any props, etc.? Oh yeah, I mean, I mean, I literally have defiance right here. I have all the Star Trek ships there and I've met Jonathan Frakes a few times at a Star Trek convention. Me and Moony went to a Star Trek convention one time.

01:23:48
Met Dax, met Councillor Troy, Wharf, Levar, Burton, Data. Oh wow, Levar, Burton. I had a whiskey with Weyoun a month ago when I was at a convention. Yeah, I've actually been pretty lucky. I've gotten to meet a good few of the cast. They're all really, really nice as well. But it's the benefit of doing some of those pop culture shows I mentioned is that you end up in a scenario where you get to talk to these people, like real people.

01:24:16
And you try hide that you're a massive nerd. You're like, yeah, I'm not like them. I'm not like those people out there. I'm actually, I'm actually very cool. Yeah. That's pretty fucking funny. So, all right. Have you ever tried to lobby or set something up where you could possibly work on a Star Trek side? I'm surprised like, you know, with your- Oh yeah. Yeah, no, I mean, Heather, Heather Antos, she edits all, she edits all my creator on work, like Old Dog and Time Before Time.

01:24:44
And she got the Star Trek license. Like, I heard nothing. And every time I talk to her, I'm like, come on, ask. Ask. She knows I was massive because she used to edit the Star Wars titles at Marvel. I'm like, yes, Star Wars, whatever, Star Trek, where it's at. So she knew I was a massive Star Trek fan. But no, I've actually done some covers for her. I did. I did one for Defiant Issue One for Star Trek Issue One.

01:25:08
And she hired me to write a short story for Star Trek issue 400. I wrote an O'Brien story with Seth Demoustrew. And I did another defined cover recently for defined issue 12. Yeah, so I've done some I've done some covers. I mean, I'd love to do like draw a story, but like start to be very hard to draw. It's very technical, which is in my strong suit. You know, like all of the technology. I like drawing kind of like banged up machinery.

01:25:37
Whereas a lot of Star Trek's are clean. So I'd find it hard, but it'd be cool to do a one shot or something like that someday. So no, I have lobbied and I have gotten... Well, no, I didn't lobby hard. I just kind of like, hey, I would have heard from you. But I think to be fair to Heather, she said she was waiting. The first job she gave me was the cover, was a variant for Star Trek issue one. So I mean, that's pretty cool. So I can't really complain. She did give me some nice cover.

01:26:07
cover offers. So, you know, I think she knows if she ever throws me another one, I'll just do it. You're like, I mean, I didn't lobby too hard. I just, you know, waited outside of Heather's house and where she worked and you know, where she picked up her kids. Just normal. Wearing a Star Trek outfit. Get the hints. Declan, what is out there? Like, do you have a white buffalo? Whether it's like a project you want to work with on or someone you want to work with? Like what is it? It sounds like you've been, you know.

01:26:35
You've been saying this whole interview, you know, you've had a very fortunate, you feel very lucky to have a career you have, which is, you know, fantastic that you are, you know, you've got that perspective about your career. But like, is there anything that's still on like your bucket list to do when it comes to like, you know, this world of comics and working in the industry? Like what is, what is, what are you still aiming for? Yeah. Um, daredevil. I want daredevil bad man. I've always wanted to do like a daredevil.

01:27:02
I would have loved to do the main book, but I realized I just can't write and draw a monthly book. Would you want to write it or draw it? I want to write and draw it. But I couldn't do the main series. I couldn't write the main series, but I'd love to. I want to write and draw a mini series. I had a Pigeon Marvel at one stage and I kind of went through, then it kind of disappeared. But I think I might circle back on that maybe in a year or two, just because it was a good idea I think.

01:27:31
I'd like to do it. Batman, I mean, I got to do All Star Batman with Scott Snyder. I did like the backup stories on that, which was cool. But I mean, I wanted to write and draw a Batman story like crazy. I'd love to do that. So those are like, you know, and there's random, I mean, you know, I'd like to write and draw a proper Wolverine story. I've been very lucky. I got to do Return of Wolverine and I'd done some short stories and the X-Men vertical story was a Wolverine story.

01:28:01
I'd like to do a six-issue, not epic, but a really good... There are some characters I'd just like to take for a year and do a really cool limited run and just have those be great graphic novels. Ideally, that's what I'd like to do, just take some characters. There's not a lot of them, but there's definitely some that would take time.

01:28:28
I'm more interested in writing for artists now than I am for drawing for writers, just because I've been very lucky and I've worked with great ones like Warren and Gerry Duggan and Jeff Parker and Brian Wood and, you know, and Gardennis I'd still love to do something with. He, you know, I grew up, I was a hero of mine. Ed Brubaker, because I just love his stuff. But look, I've got to work with Hickman. I like, I'm done very well in that regard.

01:28:58
artists I'd like to write for than writers I'd like to draw for in general. That's something I'll never do it again. I might just get really tired from writing. It's one thing I've noticed now because I'm writing everything, even the stuff I'm drawing, it's just a lot of concept work and a lot of mental energy spent. And it doesn't really feel like we're getting much done because I don't, at least I don't have pages drawn, I know I'm getting stuff done. It doesn't feel like I have much stuff done when it's all word docs.

01:29:28
So there might come a time where I just want to take a break and just draw some stuff. But creatively I am more engaged and rewarded by stuff that I'm either writing or writing and drawing. You on a Daredevil series has never made, I mean that makes so much sense. And I don't have nearly the lobbying power you have of Marvel, but whatever petition I need to sign to make that happen, you let me know. Because I think that would be fucking awesome. I've made it very, very clear. I haven't been, you know, some people say you should be very cagey about

01:29:57
letting people know what you want to do because they can use it against you. They can use that in negotiations, but I'm like, yeah, I'll do it free. I'll do it free people. Yeah. I talked to Axel Alonso when he was there and basically we're like, yeah, cool. We should have you do Daredevil. And then he was fired the next week or something. So I was like, so close. Declan, I have one last question for you. And this is one just getting back to the introspection side of things.

01:30:23
What piece of advice do you have for aspiring comic creators that want to break into the industry, that want to be the next Declan Shelby? Maybe something that you wish someone would have told you early on in your career. Like what comes to mind for advice? I'm glad this is the last question because I actually do need to go to the toilet. So if you hear a sound, that is definitely me. This is very obvious advice that people are probably...

01:30:52
don't want to hear, but I do think it is the best, is to, if you're a writer or you're an artist, do short stories, self-contained stories that have a beginning, middle and end, be them one page, two pages, five pages, six pages, and build up your skillset, build up your sense of self-evaluation. Everybody wants to do their 200 page...

01:31:21
epic graphic novel, but if you've never drawn comics before, you will get to 10 pages and then never do anymore. But you could do five pages and when it's done, you can look back at it and you can look at your compositions and see if you could have done better, or if you're a writer, what you could have done better. And it'll make you a lot more openly and honestly critical about your stuff, because if you're in the middle of it, if you're on page 50 of your 200 page graphic novel...

01:31:48
going to be very sensitive about it. It's going to be very hard for you to look at it in an honest way. And then by the time you're finished, you'll have hasted the start of it. It'll be a disaster. But if you work in smaller chunks, it'll be easier for you to self-evaluate. And then the longer pieces you do will be more informed, more developed, you'll be honing your craft much faster.

01:32:18
And like I did that 30 page, Kira killers and the leap between when I started it and when I finished it was huge. And then when I started the next project, again, a jump, you make little jumps, the more you kind of finish projects and also build a peer group around you. That will push you to do better. I was very fortunate when I was coming up that group blogs were a thing. So me and the other Irish guys.

01:32:48
Nick Roach in engineering. There we go. Sorry. Nick Roach is very well known Transformers artist. I'm like, of course he should be the engineer on the enterprise. Anyway, sorry. That's a good pick. Yeah. See, I'm going to be doing this for weeks now. And I'm a little sorry. Yeah. That was it was the Irish guys. Like having, we did a group blog where we did a piece of fan art every week, one piece every week, and each of us had a specific day. And we were all very subtly trying to one up each other a little bit and having someone to...

01:33:18
not being competition with, but somebody to kind of push against, you know, in a friendly way does motivate you. And having people around you who can say like, you know, like I had friends recently give me a note on the cover and I was really annoyed, but I looked at them like, ah, yeah, actually it's a fair point. If there's no one around you to tell you that it's very hard to improve. Nobody develops in a vacuum. So having a peer group around you.

01:33:47
who push you to do better and for you to have a kind of a very friendly competition with to push yourself more is good. And also you just have to push yourself. You have to get over it. Like it's very un-Irish for to be very self-aggrandizing. And I am very self-aggrandizing, but like I do it as a joke to compensate for how uncomfortable it makes me feel, you know? So I just own it as a joke. But you have to push it. There's too many good people out there.

01:34:17
There's also too many people who are actually shite, but they're very good at pushing themselves. Why give other people an open goal if you're trying to get yourself out there? Comics, it's a competitive gig between writers, artists, colorists, whatever it is, but finding a peer group to who you can collaborate with. Steven Mooney, for example, is a good example. He did a book called Half-Bass Danger.

01:34:43
And a year or so ago, he did a Kickstarter where he asked all the Irish guys to do a story. So, you know, he had his property and he had everybody do a story with his characters. And that was a really fun thing, you know, and maybe made a book out of it. So like having people to push you and support you and owning your shit, I guess, like really kind of without being a, you know, you can do it in a way that you're not being a dickhead like, but yeah, hiding in the back isn't, no one's going to...

01:35:12
pick you from the back of a room and go, you, you're the next big thing. You have to push yourself, you know, and you have to put yourself forward. You have to be your own advocate. But yeah, that's all that's come to mind. That is more than enough pieces of good advice. That was a really well thought out answer. Thank you so much, Declan. I know it is getting late on your side, so we can actually wrap this up. Declan, I'm have links to...

01:35:34
your socials as well as your website posted in these show notes. Do you have anything you want to say as a goodbye to the listeners? Do you want to plug anything in before you leave? I think I did so much plugging during this. I think I'll leave everybody alone. Thanks very much, man. I enjoyed the chat mainly because I just talked for two hours. No, thanks for the interest and try out the books. I hope you like them. I think it's clear I love making comics.

01:36:03
I hope that comes across in the work too. It absolutely did. And I'm excited to pick up Thundercast number one. Declan, you've been fantastic. Thank you for your time today as well. I learned a lot and it was entertaining.

01:36:15
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