Frank Miller: American Genius: Reaction & Review! - The Short Box Podcast Ep. 430

00:01
Intro music plays

00:32
Let's try to do this no edits no edit show. It's been a while since I didn't know edit show and Now the nervousness that just said it So you know your arms and your fillers, I'm like welcome to the oblivion box Yo short box nation Welcome back to the podcast if you're new to the show obviously welcome to the show this the short box podcast

01:01
the comic book talk show that brings you the best conversations about comic books with the people that put their blood, sweat and tears into making them. And that also includes a content and episodes and podcasts about comic books. And it's my little way of setting up my special co-host for this episode. Which if you've been listening to our podcast for at least a year now, you've definitely already can tell who's on the pod by his voice.

01:26
I've got the incredible co-host of the Oblivion Bar podcast here on with me, who might as well be like a fourth, fifth chair at this point. He's like Short Box royalty and Short Box family. Ladies and gents, I've got Chris Hacker from the Oblivion Bar pod on this show here with me. What up, Chris? Yo, yo, what's up? It feels like deja vu. We were just on first issue club. Now look at us. I think we're just like, we're just getting ready for like our separate podcasts that we're eventually gonna start at some point, the Short Bar or the Oblivion Box, one of the two.

01:56
Might as well be. I want to say that there's not too many people that I feel confident that I could have just asked to record or called upon. In the late hours of a school night, we're recording this episode on a Monday night. It is now 1120 PM Eastern. We just both finished watching the Frank Miller American Genius doc. We left it.

02:21
It's definitely safe to say we both saw it at the same time. It finished at the same time. I think we got a home around the same time. One showing at 8 p.m. across the entire US. Which I gotta admit, that was kind of a cool experience to know that everyone was watching this at the same time. And it was like a one and done type deal. So even like the live Q&A intro with Rosario Dawson was being telecast across the country for all theaters that had a theater.

02:49
I texted you when that was going on. I was like, I did not know that this was part of it. I left a very packed line getting snacks. I was like, I looked around, I went with Zach Armour. By the way, big shout out to Zach Armour. He goes by Comic Ventures on Instagram. He's a great guy, makes amazing comic book content, lives here in Jack's, good friend, and he's actually the one that reminded me, actually put this on my radar that Jacksonville Cinemark was showing this movie. So I was in line with Zach.

03:19
And I just met a new friend. His name is Tom, and he runs this Instagram account called giantsize.vr, is the name of the Instagram account. And he screen prints nothing but awesome comic book shirts. He was in line right behind me. He had this badass Daredevil Man Without Fear t-shirt. And I was like, yo, that's a fly shirt. And it looks like good quality. Junior, Junior? Yeah. And he's like, thanks, dude. I screen printed this, and I'm here to see the movie. So.

03:47
Big shout outs to Tom of giantsizevr.com. His shirts are amazing. He's got this Watchmen and this Hellboy shirt that I'm probably going to pull the trigger on tonight. But anyways, I'm in line. And dude, I think we also got the Bad Boys, what's the name of the newest one? Bad Boys. Ride or Die, I think is what it's called. Yeah. So I think we had a lot of those viewers in line. So it was like a crazy long line for snacks. And when you texted me like,

04:16
yo, this live Q&A is about to like, I didn't know it was a live thing. We literally was like, okay, do we stay in line to get snacks or say, fuck it? And we were like, I kinda want to listen. Do we get our cookie dough bites or do we listen to Rosario Dawson and ask Frank Miller, who his favorite Sin City character is? Easiest choice in the world. Like, so I guess I bring that up to say that the live intro by Rosario Dawson, the short little Q&A that lasted 30 minutes, I did appreciate that they respected the time and cut it off at 30 minutes, was a nice touch.

04:43
And I think really made this feel like an event that, you know, you know what I'm saying? It felt like an event that even though we were all in separate movie theaters, it was a cool experience knowing that, Hey, Chris is, you know, States away, but watching this at the same time, you know, seeing the same things and, uh, and we both didn't get our answers, our questions selected for their Q and a submission. So that was kind of a bummer. I will say it was pretty funny to watch Bob Bernie, who's the CEO of picture house. And then

05:11
So Lynn Thomas, who was the director of the film and also the CEO of Frank Miller Inc. Come on, just very suddenly, right at 30 minutes to kind of slowly drag Rosario and Frank off the stage. Like, all right, let's take our pictures and let's get this thing going. I was like, all right, I guess we're doing this. Yeah, they're like, we don't got, this theater closes at 11, all right? And they're gonna kick us out. At one point they talked about, Rosario just offhandedly, very casually mentions that someone in El Paso wins some kind of giveaway. And I'm like, what is this giveaway? Cause she doesn't mention.

05:39
what it is. And then when Bob and Selene come back on stage to pull Frank and Rosario off, Bob, again, just very half heartedly mentioned that the winner at this Cinemark in El Paso, Texas, wins this original Frank Miller commission. I was like, what? How did I not know that this was, I didn't even get my bot set up. I didn't get to do it. I didn't know that I was even entered into this thing.

06:04
How do they find out who won? Is there any staff at that theater applauding him? Hey, make sure you come down and find us. So whoever G11 was, I think that was the lucky seat that won. Kind of jelly, because I think they ended up winning an original Frank Miller piece that he drew for this event. So talk about a lucky bastard. Well, I just picture really quickly in that Cinemark, no one in that seat. And then they hear the winner, and somebody runs over to that seat and sits down.

06:33
That'd be me, I'm like, you could just like, you just turn the camera to that Cinemark in El Paso, people are just beating the shit out of each other, trying to get in this golden ticket seat. For sure, some dude that got like G10, he's like, god damn it, shut the fuck up. But anyways, I guess listeners, you know, this is, like I said in the intro, I'm gonna try to, this is gonna be like a freestyle one, a free flowing conversation, we're recording this really late at night, no outline, just, you know, spur of the moment, fellow crazy man, Chris Hacker, who is, you know,

07:02
Chris, hats off to you. Like I said, there isn't too many people I know that I could call on at 11.30 on a school night to record a quick pod about a Frank Miller doc. So thank you for that. And to the listeners, obviously, that's what we're gonna be talking about. We're just gonna be recapping our thoughts about the Frank Miller American Genius doc. I don't know if spoiler warnings, spoiler warning would be applicable for a documentary considering you can just go on the Wikipedia and read all this. But I will say.

07:28
Maybe if you really want to experience this fresh and you don't want to hear us talk about it, check out the other episodes we got underway. But I will just go ahead and preface this that we will be talking about everything that we saw in this documentary. So if you're curious about the doc, stay around. But if you want to experience it fresh, I completely understand. With that being said, oh good. Can we say really quickly just off the top that you should go see this? I mean, I know we're gonna get into our thoughts, but I texted you when I got to see it a couple days earlier.

07:57
And I was like, this is, you know, in my opinion, and I haven't seen a ton of comic book specific documentaries, but I was pretty floored by this, by this sort of inside introspective of Frank Miller, who in my mind for the longest time was a sort of scowling, grizzled, you know, angry man, just kind of this shadowy figure in the comic book world that sort of, you know, engulfed it with his work over, and we'll talk about it as we go on in the conversation. But,

08:26
what I really loved about it. And this was just kind of be like my initial thoughts is that it really showed sort of a softer side of Frank Miller that I really appreciated. I think throughout this entire documentary, he's just often smiling. And when he's meeting, you know, collaborators and friends and their comic book industry and getting awards from different parts of the world, it was just really refreshing to see him sort of happy. And just again, based on again, what we'll talk about in the documentary, sort of this downfall around 2000 and I want to say it was like around 2013 to 2016.

08:55
There was this timeframe that was really rough for him with alcoholism. So to see him post all that sort of living his best life was really cool to see. Absolutely agree with you. And I will probably admit something that may maybe highlights maybe my ignorance is that I was surprised just how coherent he really is like, and how aware that he's been, you know, like you see some of those, I mean, we've all seen those, those photos from that timeframe where it's like, yo, what happened to Frank Miller? Like,

09:22
you know, if I'll do respect, you know, it was kind of really worrisome. Like, you know, this it you know what I'm saying? Like, so to see how aware he was, how clear he was now, granted, like you could definitely tell the, you know, his bouts of alcoholism has, you know, impacted his physical and his speech. But, you know, I feel like he's still very sharp, you know, very sharp, very intelligent and like you said, really warm. Is he's you know, he's not someone that.

09:51
He doesn't come off like he's bitter about anything, is the vibe I got. He's very much still in love with storytelling and the art form. And I guess getting just a little ahead, but there was an absolute murderer's row, cameos of like just cameos in this documentary. I tried to write down as many as I could, but I know for a fact I'm missing some, but just to kind of freestyle some. And obviously if you're...

10:20
If you know how I do when it comes to these like movie recap episodes that are recorded the same night, I took a bunch of notes in the theaters in the dark. So some of my notes are poorly written, but I, I get anxiety when I go, you know, when I know I'm going to record an episode, I don't want to forget things. So I took a couple of notes and just talking about some of the cameos, some of the people that showed up in this documentary, I've got Brian Azzarello. I'm sorry. No, no, no, no, no. No, Brian Azzarello does show up. Um,

10:49
But I had Matt Kent, but he doesn't show up. But Frank Miller does say that Brian Azzarello and Matt Kent are two writers that he's really impressed by today. So I did want to mention that. But as far as cameos go, Neil Adams, Jim Shooter, Jim Lee, Jessica Alba, which in case you were wondering, she's still absolutely drop dead gorgeous. She's still got it. Yeah, Chip Kidd. They had a little clip from Brittany Murphy.

11:19
Uh, which by the way, I won't lie to you. I kind of got a little like choked up seeing a clip of interview clip from Brittany Murphy, you know, like, all right. Yeah. She's just so pure. And, you know, again, speaking of someone who was just going through it without any of us knowing, right? Like, man, to see her on that red carpet there of sin city, it's like, we just need a little more time with her. She was so talented and beautiful and warm. Just in that brief, like 30 to hear her talk about Frank Miller in this 30, 35 seconds was just, um,

11:46
And that can go along with a lot of people that we see, you know, uh, Neil Adams, like you said, and Richard Donner at one point, Stan Lee, all these people who have now since passed to hear them talk about Frank and sort of his impact on them in some way or another was really touching and wonderful. I guess when you think about the, and I haven't even, you know, I still got a bunch more names, but just really quickly, Jim Lee was there in the doc, Paul Pope, who I guess I've never seen a photo of Paul Pope. You know, there's a couple of creators that I've never

12:16
thought to look up what they look like. So this doc was like a good intro to some. But Paul Pope, Joelle Jones, who else? You said Stan Lee. I mean, really, they'll come to me as, oh, Jeff Darrow, Tom King, Raphael Grandpa, Dave Gibbons, all were in the documentary at some point. Billson Kavich, Klaus Janssen, said Jim Shooter. But yeah, it really was like the who's who of comic books.

12:43
There's a couple in there that I remember off top my head, if you don't mind. Yeah, please. Dave Gibbons, you know, artist on the Watchmen. There was Raphael Aberkerky, who's obviously a legend, but also was about to start working on TMNT with Jason Aaron. There was Jock showed up at one point. Yeah, that's right. Yeah. I'm trying to think who else off the top of my head, because you got a lot of them there. I will say of the ones that we listed, the two that...

13:07
The one truly, or I guess, well, I'll do two here. Neil Adams and his whole excerpt about how he was basically just telling Frank Miller from the jump that he wasn't ever gonna make it really was an interesting thing. Again, speaking on Neil Adams and how knowing him from his last couple of years of the concert, I often, I'll just tell you from personal experience, when I would see Neil Adams and he was at every convention, when I was going to conventions from like 2014 to 2017, 2018, I never went to his booth because much like Frank Miller, I've always sort of,

13:37
known him from the outside as being kind of a, kind of a son of a bitch. Like he just, he had that sort of old head anger about him when you would go up and talk to him and you see him interact. But he earned that. And I think a lot of this documentary side of sort of a highlights where like a lot of that anger came from a real place of being taken advantage of for a long time in the industry. I mean, think about him working from the sixties until only recently. And even recently these guys are still being hardly very much underpaid and underappreciated, but he was.

14:04
He's part of that old head group of folks who were getting paid by the sense for pages. Right. And then of course, the Jim shooter where Jim shooter actually gets sort of choked up at one point talking about Frank Miller and his work on ROM number one, which who the hell knew that Frank Miller drew? I texted the other day, you and Greg both about how Frank Miller, one of his very first works at Marvel was drawing the cover for ROM number one. Like talk about such an iconic cover that we've all seen a thousand times.

14:31
Right. And I mean, if this is common knowledge, then I am not afraid to admit that completely went over my head that that is a Frank Miller cover. And so to hear like you were surprised by it and Greg and our text thread was also surprised by it. I was like, well, I wonder, I guess maybe not too many people know about that. But yeah, Jim Shooter had a really lovely moment where he does get choked up. And I actually wrote that part down in my notes that he gets choked up when he talks about.

14:59
seeing Frank Miller realize the potential of comic books. And I think he says when Frank Miller realized that the picture is, a comic panel should be able to tell a scene of a movie in someone's mind. I had something to that effect, I'm paraphrasing poorly, but he gets choked up at that and talking about Frank Miller, kind of clicking for Frank Miller. And you know, we...

15:25
mention all these name drops and all these folks that are in the documentary. But I think it just goes to me, it just proved that the tagline for this, or really the name of this documentary, isn't hyperbole. It's called Frank Miller American Genius. And when you've got absolutely some of the best creators in all of comics involved in this doc, and obviously they're there to share positive things and affirmations about Frank Miller. But.

15:54
A lot of, I mean, I feel like all of it was genuine. And when you hear that, how many other creators that you look up to, that you know are, you know, top shit talk about Frank Miller and his impact, you know, it really isn't hyperbole, I guess is what I'm getting at, that we can call Frank Miller a fucking genius, you know? An icon of American creators. I do like that they emphasize that and he's proud to be like, yeah, I'm American as they come, you know? Like, what did you say, like?

16:21
I am the American dream. I moved from a small town to the big city and I, you know, I'm doing what I love to do since I was a kid creating comics. That shit was really inspiring. Yeah. He said based on pure perseverance and a little bit of luck, he is living the American dream. And that's so true. I mean, I think to look back on this kid that came from, you know, Montpelier, Vermont as a 18 year old ask, and he tells the story often. I've heard him tell the story quite often in other interviews and panels and such about how his father basically

16:51
always agree with his mother up until the point where Frank came to him and said that I want to become a cartoonist and I want to move to the big city. And apparently his mom was trying to come up with ideas to keep him home. And his dad was like, no, Frank's going to go to New York and do this. Right. And I just love, we were talking about this again, speaking of the con, you know, our, our thread, our, our group chat where like a lot of, a lot of debt is owed not only to Neil Adams who didn't just kind of like baby him.

17:18
Right? I mean, think about the comic industry at this point in the early seventies, mid seventies, where these kids, I mean, these creators weren't being paid anything. And like you were doing it strictly for either the love of the medium or because it's all you've ever known. And for Frank to come to him again from a small town and go, Hey, I want to do this. And Neil going, no, you don't have it in you. And sort of giving him the, and I made this comparison before sort of the whiplash treatment of like, you aren't great until you proved to me that you're a great. And it was. And.

17:49
Again, through sheer willpower and hard work, Frank surpassed even Neil Adams' eyes at one point. Neil was like, you're still not good enough. Frank's like, well, actually, Gold Key just got me in on the Twilight Zone book. I'm doing it. They just approved my script. Neil's like, well, damn, go ahead then. Do your thing. He was on Daredevil within a year. That was truly incredible. For him to come in at the age of 20 and take over Daredevil, not only as the writer, but as the artist is...

18:18
something of legend, right? Like that's truly iconic. Like Frank Miller is your favorite comic book creator's favorite creator. Well said. And this documentary shows you why. And there's, I guess let me take a step back here. There's two points I want to talk about really quick. And this is kind of like a very hard tangent here, but I just want to get it out the way. Chris, when you went, like, was your theater packed? Like, did you know anyone else in the theater by any chance?

18:45
I'm glad you asked that because I was going to ask you when you're talking about when you guys were first got there. I was actually of a crowd of like six people. It was actually a pretty empty theater. The theater itself wasn't large itself. I'd say there's about 40 seats and there were about I'd say seven or eight of us total. And I didn't know anyone there. But I was, I was, everybody was in a kind of a group besides me. I was by myself and yeah, but it was a good, it was still a great viewing experience. I actually mentioned to you in our text thread that I was really impressed by the Cinemark that I went to. They had a great sort of lobby and the.

19:15
that sort of just everything was set up was really, really well and everything went really smoothly with the live stream. Those things can often be easily messed up. And yeah, it was, it was a great viewing experience overall. Yeah. I, I mean, obviously art theater was, wasn't packed. I will say maybe I went into a little optimistic that it was going to be a lot more people than there was there. I would say there was probably 20 is probably realistic. Maybe there was 30, but I think it was closer to like 20, 25. Um, but

19:44
This is such a focused documentary that I knew that everyone there was, they were there for a reason, because this was not an easy, this wasn't really being shown, this was not available in theaters like that, as far as the distribution. One night. And in very small amount, I guess Cinemark had, this was a very exclusive Cinemark thing. I actually hit up my buddy Walt in Orlando, because I'm gonna go see him on Wednesday, and I'm gonna record a pod with him.

20:12
So I was like, hey, is there any chance that you can catch this? Is this showing where you're at and can you watch it so we can talk about it on the pod on Wednesday? And he's like, bro, do you know what the closest theater showing this is? I was like, what is it? He was like, Tensiltown, Jacksonville, Florida. You know, and speaking of that guy, Tom, from GiantSize.VR, or GiantSizeVR, he drove from Savannah down to Jacksonville. And that's, I think, a solid. Two hours, at least. So yeah, solid two hours. So you know what I'm saying? Like, I knew that.

20:39
Even though there wasn't a lot of people, the people that were there were obviously there to take it in and were big fans. And I wanna give a shout out to a couple of the folks that I was lucky enough to know a few of the people there. Obviously I went there with Zach Armour, I got to meet Tom from Giant Size VR. I got to see, big shout outs to Nelson, who I got to see, my buddy Reagan, Belda was there, and then Dan and James, who I've met at the comic shop Gotham City Limit a few times.

21:08
So it's kind of nice to see like familiar faces that have been to the shop and whatnot. So big shout out to everyone that was at a tensile town, watching this movie. I think to your point a little bit is that to go and see this film, cause I don't know if you noticed, I actually had to look it up myself. This film was finished in 2021. A lot of the footage that we see throughout is from around 2016 to 2019, right? Pre pandemic. So this has been stuck in sort of purgatory distribution land for about

21:37
three, four years. To see Frank at this Q&A with Rosario Dawson and then to see him in the film, he's obviously much sharper and much younger. Just those three years, it feels like a lifetime compared to how he is speaking in that Q&A and AMA versus in the film. In the film, after post all the stuff that he went through in terms of alcoholism, he is sharp.

22:02
Like he is answering questions quickly. He's splashing pages with ink and like, he's doing all the Frank Miller stuff that he generally does to see him sort of, I hate to say it like this, and I mean this with all respect in the world, but sort of waddle his way to his seat and sort of answer these questions. He's like out of breath in the Q&A, right? Like life is weighing on him very quickly in the last couple of years. So for this to come out and again, to show a side of him that I think a lot of us weren't aware of, I just can't praise it enough. It truly was.

22:31
sort of an incredible experience. And, you know, to kind of speak on what you were saying there in terms of the, you know, going out and seeing this on a Monday at 8 p.m. at a Cinemark, where have you, I mean, Cinemark's not a giant movie chain. It's not AMC, it's not Regal. It's kind of, I would say it's fourth or fifth in terms of the overall, you know, chains of movie theaters. So for Cinemark to get this, for Picturehouse to put it out on a Monday at 8 p.m., you really had to make a concerted effort to go out and see this film in theaters. And I don't really understand or know.

22:58
what the strategy was necessarily with that. I mean, if that's all they had in terms of budget, I get it. I'm curious to see if this ever gets any kind of distribution in terms of physical media. Like, are we gonna get a Blu-ray? Are we gonna get special behind the scenes stuff? I was just about to bring that up. I find it weird that there's no information about the release strategy afterwards. I guess they're really banking on, you know, this very limited showing. Maybe it's based on the success of that and.

23:23
and the, you know, a claim that gets out of there. But I, you know, I'd be very hard pressed to not, to think that this wouldn't hit digital or streaming. Could be crowdfunded for a physical, you know, they could do a Kickstarter that, you know, these people, the, yeah, I'll say the publishers are doing more of the crowdfunding. I was just listening to off panel earlier today with David Harper talking about how the Kickstarter landscape for a while was indie creators trying to get their comic out there. Now it is publishers trying to make sure that their numbers are correct so they can put out the book they want to put out. So,

23:53
I would not be surprised if we see this picture house putting this out like, hey, you love the Frank Miller one night. Hey, guess what? You can buy a Blu-ray, a poster, and it's signed by him for 450 bucks or something like that. You know, the truth. It comes with that Kickstarter upcharge and that upcharge is serious. But I will say to anyone that, you know, wasn't able to catch this, that, you know, stay tuned. I guess like keep your eyes peeled for whatever, whenever this hits streaming, because I think this is absolutely worth watching.

24:20
And if I'm being honest, I think this will even be better as a couch, you know, home watch. I did enjoy the, you know, being at the theaters and getting to experience it that way. I think had it just been the doc, I would have been a little bit like, I could have maybe waited for it to hit streaming. But the live Q&A was a really nice touch and made it feel like an experience. And a picture house is actually, it's owned by Warner Brothers. So I wouldn't be surprised in the next, you know, six months or so that

24:48
this is released on Macs or, again, could be some kind of crowdfunded physical media. Chris, let me ask you this. How much did you know about Frank Miller going in versus how much did you actually like new things did you learn? Would you say like t-shirt sizing? Was it small, medium, large as far as things that new things you learned? What's interesting about that is I will say the beginning of my love of comics is so intrinsically

25:17
I was sort of offered as a first resort in the world of comics, hey, here's Watchmen and here's The Dark Knight Returns. And we have often talked about on our shows how to give a new comic reader those two books is to sort of give them sort of a disservice, right? Those books are so intrinsically about comics. Like The Dark Knight Returns is a complete deconstruction of the character of Batman. Like to completely...

25:46
appreciate that book is to know what Batman was before and what he has become since. We are currently living in the world of Frank Miller's Batman. We are living in it right now in 2024. No one has reinvented the character the way that Frank Miller did in 1986 with The Dark Knight Returns compared to what The Dark Knight was with Dennis O'Neill and Neil Adams' Batman up to that point. And again, same with Watchmen. Watchmen is a deconstruction of the comic book medium as a whole. So I say all that to say that.

26:15
My love of Frank Miller has been sort of passive in the sense that, yeah, of course I've read Daredevil, A Man Without Fear. I've read Born Again. I've read parts of Ronin. I've read, obviously, The Dark Knight Returns and its many subpar installments thereafter. Of course, I recognize him as a very integral part of the comic book medium and a true legend, a living icon. As I said earlier, he has had sort of this shadowy, sort of angry figure in my head. That's based solely on the fact that-

26:44
That's what his work often reflects. Jessica Alba says this, you mentioned this earlier, how he sort of highlights the darkness in our world, but then in a very softer way, sort of highlights the beauty and light within it. And I think what this documentary does so well is sort of flips that. Like it showcases what the hard stuff that he's worked on, this, the darkness and the shadowy parts of our culture within the world of comics. But I think it more so highlights how much of a gleeful fan.

27:14
a true believer that he is in the medium, right? So my connection to Frank Miller, and I think again, the beauty of this documentary is that it showcased a part of Frank Miller that I had never known. And if nothing else, it's made me a bigger fan. Hard to believe that that is based again on the fact that he is a legend. Like to highlight someone who is already a living icon and to make him even more of a legendary figure by bringing on equally if not more legendary creators in their own right.

27:42
to showcase how much they love Frank Miller is within itself just like a total mind blowing experience. Yeah, and his impact to, you know, like I know that we appreciate it, I think, as like, as American comic book readers, but to see the impact and praise and love that he gets, you know, across the pond from, you know, folks like, I don't know if Paul Pope is American or not, but you know, like your Dave Gibbons.

28:09
Milo Manara, the creator of Heavy Metal was in this doc too. The impact and appreciation that he's got globally, I guess is what I can say, not just across the pond, but I think globally, it makes you appreciate Frank Miller as an American export. It's like, man, that's a comic book great that transcends just the direct market or America. That dude is a great example of what comic books

28:39
can be, can accomplish, and the people that it can reach. And I think, and same thing for me, my initial love of comic books and when I was first getting into it and just trying to consume everything, I'll never forget buying a collection, a two volume collection of his Daredevil stuff, and just absolutely adoring it, just loving it. And this was around a time that I was so Marvel heavy, because all that was in my own.

29:09
You know, my dad was a Marvel head, so he didn't have a lot of DC stuff. So it took me the longest time to try out Dark Knight Returns. And I'll admit, I didn't really like it when I first read it. I just couldn't get behind the art. Granted, you know, I got older, got wiser, got smarter and, you know, really ended up loving it. But I think what this doc did was it it wasn't afraid to also show you like his his later work. And as someone that's been following his career, maybe not as as as in tune or

29:39
you know, as serious now. I guess like when I see his current stuff prior to this documentary, I won't lie, there's a part of me that's like, yo, should Frank Miller hang it up? You know, like, is it like, is he doing this for a paycheck? You know what I'm saying? It's like, I guess maybe that's something that I've got to work on myself, like that. I need to get rid of this thought that, you know, older creators are, I don't know. I don't know where I'm getting at. This is why I edit. Well, I think I know what you're kind of getting at. If you don't mind, if I can just sort of trail off that.

30:09
I think when we think of Frank Miller, a lot of his work, his best work was done from, again, 1978 until 1990-ish. Right? So when we look at Frank Miller today and we've seen the Wolverine covers, we've seen the Thing covers and we think, man, what is Frank doing? And we've read the Master Race, we've read, they even highlighted in this, the Holy, what was the Holy Warrior? I think it was the book he put out. Holy Terror. Holy Terror, right. So we're like...

30:35
And then of course, like Superman year one, which I think for a lot of folks was not really exactly what we wanted out of the story. You know, Frank, his legend precedes him to the fact to where he's never going to do born again. He's never going to do the dark knight returns again. And I think what the documentary does so well is that it showcases that Frank is trying to evolve constantly. It shows what he was when he first got into the Marvel bullpen, what he evolved into with the dark knight returns in 1986.

31:04
with Sin City where he started to become more ambiance driven, much more simplistic with his figures and his art style, but more panel centric. And then what he's sort of become in modern day as a much older man who of course has limitations based on his health. So like the way I look at it is sort of two facets. Number one, he's trying to change. He's trying something new. But also even if it is worse, let's just say art is worse, which it's not. Like art is different, but it's not worse. It's a different style.

31:34
Frank has earned the right to be worse. If that makes sense. Like he has earned the right to change his style any way he wants. And I feel bad. I feel bad for new comic readers who see the thing cover and to only know his work as Superman, you know, year one and as the Dark Knight III master race. Because I think when we look back on his career, when Frank has eventually left us and we look back on his career and go, man, what is this body of work?

32:00
They might think of his later years as being far worse. I don't think it is. I think it's just a different version of Frank Miller. Because this documentary did a pretty decent job as far as touching on his newer work. I will admit one critique that I do have about this, the doc, was that it sometimes felt a little disjointed in sense of they would jump around. They would be like, hey, let's talk about Dark Knight Returns, but then also talk about 300. And then let's go back to Derek. Sometimes they jumped around a little too much that

32:30
I wish there was a little more linear timeline, but it's a very minor nitpick. It's a little long too, it'd be on. It's about an hour and 50 minutes. It does feel like it does meander just a bit. I was telling Zach that when I saw the time for it, I think on Cinemark, it was like two hours, 21 minutes. At first I went on, I was like, yo, that's a really long movie for a late Monday night. This is the old man in me. And here we are recording a podcast.

33:01
All right, well, that argument goes right out the window. You got a damn good point. But I guess they factor in the 30 minute Q&A into that timeline, with time frame, which is not too bad at all. But the fact that they weren't shy to let him express and talk about, they're filming him as he's, I think, drawing or working on Xerxes, the 300 follow up. And then they also talk about Superman, year one. So they are covering a lot of his newer stuff that we don't know.

33:30
you know, that that has been put out recently. And if I'm being real, like I read Suman year one, that shit got really weird. You know, like I won't say that it was like the worst comic ever. But to me, Chris, I think you said it right. I revere Frank Miller in such a way that I think much like some of my other favorite artists that necessarily aren't in comics, like I look at Nas, he's like an all time great, but I'm not foolish enough to not say that, hey, some of his newer stuff isn't that good. It's still really good, but not.

33:59
up to the level that I hold him up to. And I think I just gotta let that go as a fan, you know? Seeing how gleeful he was, you know, talking about Xerxes and how excited he was, and, you know, JRJR also talking about how much fun he was having drawing Superman Year One, you know, it's like, it just made me appreciate it a little more where it's like, okay, yeah, this was maybe a dud in my eyes, but man, these guys really put their heart and soul into it. And I think I can...

34:26
maybe reread it with a fresh pair of eyes to just take it in for the fun. I think, you know what I'm saying, like Frank Miller, to me is, I think he says it in the doc, you know, like everyone thought I was just a dark guy. So now I did a YA novel, which I didn't know that he did a YA novel. If I did, then I must've forgot. So, you know, like it was kind of revealing. It kind of holds up a mirror for me, you know, I'll personally, anecdotically speak, it held up a mirror to me, like as a fan, like, you know, there's expectations I have.

34:55
And maybe I gotta let these artists and these creators grow and kind of approach it differently. And this doc was good in that sense that we got to see Frank Miller still creating, man. And when he's drawing, and you're like, man, this dude obviously isn't at peak health. He's been through some shit with the alcoholism. Which, by the way, the way he describes it as a disease and how he was using it to write better, but how it...

35:22
took so much away from him was really revealing. I thought that was powerful stuff, but man, he's still fucking got it. You know, when he's like drawing that, I don't know what he was drawing, but it was like this big old splash. I think it was like a panel from Xerxes, and you're like, goddamn, like, yo, his body is like, you know, quote unquote failing him, but he's still got it. You know, it's like so deceiving. He's so deceiving, I guess is what I got out of this. It's like, he's so frail and you know, like you said, like he's limping, but he's still sharp as ever and all that, and you're like, man, what would have,

35:51
What would Frank Miller be had he not had this addiction? But at the same time, it's like everything that he went through, it obviously has changed him and given him new perspective. And that's, I think, what makes him such an artist is that he's lived a life, and he puts it into his work, and you feel it. And obviously, it connects with everyone. Yeah, he talks about it in the doc where Will Eisner at one point takes him aside when he's going through all that and says, you need to go out there and get your heart broken a little bit.

36:19
Maybe that timeframe was him. Was that for him? He went through a divorce around that time from, from his longtime partner and all that. I'm trying to remember her name really quick. Lynn Bartley. Yeah, of course. Yeah. Did you find it a little weird? Okay. I, another kind of nitpicky thing, just super nitpicky is I do find it weird that they did not discuss that part at all. Cause I, I know it wasn't. I wonder if that was like a special request of Frank to like kind of leave that. I wonder, I don't know obviously, but yeah. Fair enough. Fair enough. I did find that was a

36:48
kind of interesting omission considering that she was such, uh, you know, uh, you know, like his biggest among his biggest collaborators, but she's on the cover of the dark night returns. It's him and her, right? It's not even Klaus Jansen even isn't on the cover of the dark night returns. She is. So, you know, and to go back on your point a little bit, I'm just, I want to kind of make a quick point there that they always say that like a 60 year old homeless man has more life experience and more intelligence than a 22 year old person with three doctorates.

37:18
Uh, again, bakes into my idea of what Frank and like his, his style has changed for him, of course, but I think he's earned the right to, again, as I was saying earlier, sort of earned the right to change it however he wants. And at a certain point, he even says it in the doc again, where he's like, I stopped thinking about my fans a long time ago. You can't think about them, you know, you gotta, you gotta do things for yourself. And I think that's kind of the level that we're at. And when I think of, you know, here's an example. So my favorite artist of all time is Daft Punk.

37:47
when their last album that they put out before they eventually split up was Random Access Memories that came out in 2012. I was 20 years old when that album came out and I'm a big old school Daft Punk house fan, like, you know, the 128 BPM robot rock, one more time kind of Daft Punk. And when they put out Random Access Memories, a little more synthy, a little more rock and roll, a little more jazz, a little more whatever, vocals and all that. I remember really not liking it when I was 20 years old and going, man, this is so not the Daft Punk that I love.

38:15
And it's so funny that I had, I had just gotten the tattoo that I have of them on my forearm, not even like six months before that album came out. And as time has gone on, I've loved, I've learned to love random access memories on a very personal level to the point where I think random access memories might be my favorite album of theirs now. And I think of like, when I go back and look at some, some work by Frank Miller years from now, maybe I pick up something new from Superman year one, or maybe I pick up something from all star.

38:43
Batman or Robin, which I'm not sure that might be among. I mean, to put Frank Miller and Jim Lee together, I'm like, how do you do this? Like, how did this happen, right? But like, maybe, maybe there's something. Like 300 wasn't really my bag, but maybe I go back and read 300 down the road and I think, wow, this is something new. And I think- There could be a new favorite of yours out there by Frank Miller that you probably would not. You know what I'm saying? Cause Daredevil is so ingrained, Dark Knight, you know, 300. Ronin, Sin City.

39:13
Yeah. And you're like, man, he's still out here doing what he loves. And obviously, I think you got to give yourself, give him the grace of aging and letting go of that idea of Frank Miller and just accepting who Frank Miller is now. And I'm actually really curious. Okay. Which kind of leads me to my next question. Really quick before you go on, quick pause, because I just had a thought really quickly that we make fun of people like Rob Liefeld.

39:40
who just stick in their Deadpool lane their entire career and do nothing else and still can't draw feet. But then we chastise people like Frank Miller for trying to change. Like where that, I think that just shows the hypocrisy that we all have maybe on different levels as comic fans that we were just not happy. We want Frank Miller to do Daredevil and the Dark Knight and Batman the way he did it in 1986 but we don't want him to change. But again, we'll make fun of, you know.

40:07
Rob Liefeldt for continuing to keep going back to the Deadpool well that he was never good at to begin with. So that's my whole point is that we got to learn to give these creators their grace. And if they've earned it, which I think we can all agree that Frank Miller has, who knows? Who knows what he'll come up with? This is obviously a very therapeutic documentary, folks. I can't recommend it enough. But I wanted to ask Chris, was there anything that you...

40:33
we're mentally adding to your like to read pile or y'all I'm going to go seek that out because if I'm being honest, uh, I've never read Ronan and I'm going to correct that cause hearing him talk about, you know, the influence of manga and I forgot who, who mentioned in the doc, it might've been Dave Gibbons or maybe it was just some random panel clip, but yeah, Frank Miller, uh, get the, should get and I think probably does get a lot of credit for bringing like, you know, manga to the States and helping like boost its popularity. But,

41:03
Ronan was on my list. That YA Carrie Kelly novel is on my list. And there was one other thing I really wanted to check out. I think it might have been Golden Child, his project with Rafael Grandpa. I did not. You know what I'm saying? That was a book that I was like, OK, I don't know if this is Frank Miller. Just trying to get a cash cow. But I kind of avoided it because Superman Year One kind of left a weird taste in my mouth. But now I'm like, you know what?

41:29
I might go ahead and change my way. So those are the three that I think I'm going to try to rectify and look into. Ronan. Kerry Kelly, Golden Child. There. Kerry Kelly, Golden Child. I don't think of Kerry Kelly. So I don't think actually Kerry Kelly is the Golden Child. I think it's Jonathan Wayne. But yeah. But yeah, I know what you're talking about. Yep. Sorry. What is on your to read pile now? So what are you adding? Throughout time, I feel like I've sort of dabbled in Frank Miller here and there. Of course, The Dark Knight Returns is a yearly read.

41:58
I've read A Man Without Fear quite often. Ronin is one that I've wanted to go back to and it's actually what I'm reading right now currently. I held up in the camera there for everyone who's just listening, but I found Ronin at Half Price Books for like $4. Which is wild. That is one that you always find. I won't lie, that is one that I always find in the used piles and things like that. Yeah, so that's definitely one that I'm currently rereading right now and it is great. It obviously is very manga inspired. The one that I really wanted to check out was the Martha Washington Liberty book.

42:26
Right? Yes. Yeah. Yeah. With him and Dave Gibbons, give me liberty was the name of the actual title. I think it was a vertigo book back in the day. I don't know what the printing looks like for that. I know it's hard to find currently in terms of a collected edition, but actually, no, sorry, it was Dark Horse. It wasn't, it wasn't vertigo, but if you know, Dark Horse was like the original vertigo. It was where indie books went to live, right? Which is why eventually Frank Miller took 300 and Sin City and all his other, you know, credit creator on books there. So it would be, I would say.

42:55
I'm saying this completely out of conjecture and someone who doesn't know this for a fact, but I would dare to say that Frank Miller sort of built the bottom bricks of Dark Horse. The Dark Horse that we have today wouldn't exist without early Frank Miller, right? Because he was a household name at the time Dark Horse was being created. And I can't recommend enough. If you've never read Hard Boiled with him and Jeff Dorrow, it is like a visual, it'll blow your mind. And it's also really well written too, but

43:23
You know like and rusty and rusty in the giant robot, right rusty in the rusty the boy robot in the giant Oh my god, I am somebody that Flubbering it today. Obviously, like I said, you know, this is the freestyle episode. No edits don't edit it out That is also, you know, and you know, yeah that dark horse period is also like, you know That's some of Frank Miller's best shit too, you know I love how in the background if is I don't know if you notice this but in the background of his art studio He has a small hellboy clock

43:53
Yeah, I love that. But you know, what's a big guy in rusty the boy robot. I had to get that. I used to love the cartoon by the way. Yep. The other one that it's kind of hard to find and shout out to Brad Gullickson of the comic book couples counseling. He went to the screener of an install Neil Gaiman and introduce. Yeah, they're they're in NYC. He took a picture when he went to I think it was for forbidden planet. And there was a Frank Miller and Walt Simonson.

44:21
RoboCop versus Terminator trade that is apparently really hard to find and extremely expensive. So that's definitely one that I want to find at some point, but just to kind of rattle off a couple off the top of my head, I need to go back and read the Claremont Miller Wolverine mini series. I have that currently on my to read pile. Daredevilborn again is I feel like a bi-annual reread to pick up something new. I think truly maybe ask me on a different day, but I think could be as magnum opus in terms of overall just greatest work.

44:50
is born again. And then I'm trying to think of another one that was top of my head really quickly. Sin City. I mean, Sin City is the one that I feel like I read when I was younger. Absolutely. I need a reread of that. And the movie. I apparently need to rewatch the movie too, because I was not aware of the short film that they made as the test run to- Which was just the intro of Sin City, right? Just John Harnett shooting. Did not know that part. Shooting the gal there. So yeah.

45:17
Name a name a book and I think Frank Miller as long as his name is attached to it It deserves a reread at some point minus all-star Batman and Robin. I'm gonna just go through my notes real quick see if We didn't go over anything We did we told everyone that we told ourselves that we're going to do 30 minutes Oh, we knew this was gonna happen, but that's okay. Yeah, we accepted it. That was a silent agreement I told Chris you had to stop on for 30 minutes. Yeah. Yeah, I meant was hey just hop on for an hour You hop on for whenever we stop talking

45:46
Okay, I got a note here that he talks about how his art style evolves and how eventually by the time he got to Sin City, he basically was not using any lines in his artwork. And that was interesting to hear that and then get to the Jim Lee, you know, all-star Batman Superman part. And Jim Lee's like, I can hear Frank Miller in my head screaming, what are you drawing all these lines for? What the fuck are they for? You know, like, why are you doing this? This is so distracting.

46:16
Imagine telling Jim Lee that. Right? But that is such a, and I've heard that concept too, right? Where it's like the art of less is more, like letting less communicate the story more. That was, the way that was emphasized made me want to go back and reread Sin City with that perspective of like enjoying the simplicity and taking away and just, you know, like limiting yourself. I think I've heard, obviously you probably too, but you know, artists talk about

46:43
It's sometimes having rules and limitations in place where some of their best work comes because now they've got to approach it in different ways. I'm surprised of all the work that we've discussed of Frank's that deserves a reread. I think the one that I we've we've criminally overlooked thus far in the conversation that I think should be like a yearly read is of course Batman year one. Right. Like, oh my God, they did not. Yo, they didn't have they oh, they were missing David Mazza Kelly. He was not in the in the dock at all, which is kind of a bummer because they've worked together multiple times. Like, that's not just on.

47:12
year one. So it would have been nice to see them see him there. But, uh, yeah, I think a year one pound for pound could be the greatest Batman story question mark. I mean, maybe more so even than the dark night returns. I don't know. Like it truly depends on your, on your flip flop. Yeah. I flip flop between the two. Like if I went, you know, it depends on which one I read recently. Like I think the most, which one did you put in front of my face recently? That's my favorite. I think I read year one like last year and I was like,

47:40
Yeah, this might be the greatest comic book ever made. And then I read Born Again a month later, I'm like, no, no, no, this is the best. No, no, no, this is it. Oh, actually, speaking about some of his lesser sleeper hits, like Ronin, I love this quote that he said about Ronin. He was explaining what a Ronin is, a rogue samurai, and how the term came about where they're outlawing samurais, and samurais became Ronin. And he said something to the effect, he said, I wanted to be a Ronin.

48:09
not a loyal samurai to one of these publishers talking about, I think Marvel at the time, or the big two. And wanting to prove himself with Ronan, like going completely left. I thought that was a cool way to just tie it all and having that theme. Like, yeah, I'm going to be reading that with that in mind. Let's see what else I got, Frank. Did you see that during the near end of it, they're talking about his first work ever, which was an APA number five, which was that.

48:36
Zine from the early seventies that he sort of band together with. At 15 or something? Yeah, it was the Batman. And I looked online on eBay, there are no APA number five. So they have APA five number five, the name of the title is APA five. But his work, his first work was an APA 10. So he has work in APA five, but it's a short, like six panel short story that I couldn't even tell you what it's about. But the Batman title or the Batman.

49:03
figure that they show in the documentaries from APA 5, number 10. Couldn't find any of those, but I did see one on Heritage Auction. It sold as a complete set 1 through 10 for, get this, $14,000 for 1 through 10 of that zine. Wow, I don't know if that's a, that's obviously a steal, but it's also so like inside baseball, like off the bean cow, like it's like, would that ever really be worth something absolutely astronomical? Like say, you know.

49:31
Would we consider that the first Frank Miller Batman? On the topic of first appearance Batman, did you recall that part in the doc where it was like a clip from a convention? There was a guy that came up to him was like, hey, this is, I don't know. It was like DC Spotlight something. Yeah, DC Spotlight number five. And it was only a mail-in comic book. But this is like the first appearance of the Dark Knight, older Batman. Well, I immediately added that mentally. No, I'm like, check that on eBay later before everyone else does.

50:00
Okay, really quick. Did they have the Pokemon Go creator? Was he in this documentary? Is he apparently like Frank Miller's best friend? Where did he fit in? I forget what his attachment was to Frank in the business world. I think they were just friends or something, but his lower third was like, whatever his name was, it was like director or something and game creator and then at the bottom, Pokemon Go. I'm like, yo, wait a minute, wait a minute, wait a minute. Yeah, I need to look this up really quick. This was not on my bingo card.

50:29
Frank Miller, Pokemon Go. You know what I'm saying? I guess it's just crazy to know how many people, well maybe it's not so crazy, because I mean this man literally redefined like Batman for a whole generation and then some. But just how many people, you know like how many people are in Frank Miller's circle. Like he is obviously a celebrity and a legend to us, but he is like that tip of the spear comic celebrity. It's like Frank Miller isn't just a comic book guy.

50:59
He's also known in Hollywood. He's also known across the world. Well, I think it was Paul Pope that said it in the documentary that he traverses comics. Like he is bigger than life in all of those aspects. And you know what I'm saying? This movie was not, I will give them credit for not shying away for some of the difficult topics. I think they didn't spend a lot of time on some of the content. Yeah. Like the Holy Terrier, they were like, look, that was kind of fucked up, right? You know what I'm saying? They're like, yeah, yeah, that's not good.

51:29
Frank was kind of at times like, all right, look, I was kind of mad, you know, bad time, bad time. They just kind of glaze over his libertarianism and his associations with like hardcore right folks and which is, again, I was talking to the formerly aforementioned Brad Gullickson after he had saw it that night in New York City. And this is sort of the issue with doing documentaries of folks who were alive, right? And then being so intrinsically tied to the product itself, you sort of get away from certain truths.

51:57
And you have to sort of glaze over darker parts of their past. And I think had we made this documentary five years after Frank was gone, we might've been able to, and who knows down the road, we maybe could get something like that. But I think to get him, you know, to, for him to be part of the production is that to sacrifice some of that truth for sure. And you know, this isn't, you know, this wasn't meant to be a smear campaign. It was meant to be a celebration. I think that that was the focus and they did it really well. Obviously there's, you know, two sides to every story, but

52:25
They didn't shy away from his duds in Hollywood too. Like, let's be, I'll be honest, I remember going to see Sin City in theaters and cause I loved, I'm sorry, I saw Sin City, but I'm thinking about the spirit. I went to go see the spirit cause I loved Sin City and I was really into Frank Miller at the time. But that movie was pretty terrible. The only thing saving it was the incredibly, you know, absolutely beautiful, strong actresses in that movie. I mean, you know, whatever. 18 year old Bodder was extremely, you know,

52:52
visually happy. But the movie was a dud overall. RG Jessica Alba's Sin City era was very integral to the growth of young Kurosaka. JG How many of us had that poster in our fucking dorms, in our rooms? I will say, Frank Miller- RG That was our fair faucet. JG Frank Miller is a walking noir movie in every sense of the word, but also that he's just worked with absolute bombshells, absolutely beautiful, strong, smart,

53:22
you know, amazing women. Like seriously, I was like, yo, no other comic creator can say they have this many, you know, Hollywood drop dead gorgeous women in their lives, you know, in their circle, talking so like poetic and passionately about them. Jessica, I hear in Jessica Alba talk about the genius of Frank Miller. I'm like, just give me 30 more minutes of this. You know, let me hear Jessica Alba pine about the intricacies of Born Again and Sin City. That was pretty awesome. Yeah, yeah.

53:50
You know who was missing in this, in this documentary, who I really would have loved to have here talk about Frank and sort of his legacy is Alan Moore. Now I know getting Alan Moore for this would have been so incredibly difficult. You'd have to traverse the mountains of England, uh, and whatever cabin he's living in currently, and you'd have to say three spells and destroy the, uh, the troll that is guarding his home and the bridge that's, you know, you have to find the bridge that kind of breaks down to get to his house. But had they got him in here because they talk about it in the doc, how in

54:20
It just happened. What in the world was going on in the stars to have Watchmen and The Dark Knight Returns land in the same year? I mean, to think about those two works coming out in the same year within months of each other is insanity. It's like a comet running into a meteorite in midspace. I guess if I may put this in hip hop terms, because this immediately came to mind when I heard it in that context that in 1986, you

54:50
milestones in comics. It made me think about it in terms of hip hop that in 1993 is considered like one of the greatest years in hip hop because two of like the greatest, you know, hip hop projects, Wu-Tang entered the 36 chambers and Tribe Called Quest, Midnight Marauders dropped not just in the same year, but on the same day, November 9th. It got me thinking that, wow, 1986 is...

55:16
the equivalent of that year. These cornerstone projects in this art form both are released in the same day and just have ripple effect on the whole art form. So that's, I don't know. There's something there that I can really expand upon. But it was a cool comparison that, wow, damn, yeah, that dropped the same year. Imagine being in the moment and just having both of these books come out in this like, you know.

55:45
deconstruction and getting to see like deconstruction kind of done its first time with superheroes and an older Batman. How crazy is it to hear that Batman was absolutely not selling until Frank Miller comes along and makes Dark Knight Returns. That is wild to think with 2024 lens, right? Where I think Batman is consistently like a top selling comic book every month. You know, like, yeah, he's, and he has 12 out at the same time. Right. And it's like, wait, you're telling me Batman was like a dud.

56:15
That is a direct connection to Frank Miller. Like we're, again, as I said earlier, we're living in the Frank Miller era of Batman. Like no one has come along thus far since 1986 and changed Batman in the way that Frank Miller has. We're living in the Miller era. And I want to quickly, really quick talk about what you were saying there a moment ago. I had a couple of quick connections. So 1986, also Predator came out that year and RoboCop came out that year. Oh wow. Good year for movies. 1993, Forrest Gump, Shawshank Redemption.

56:44
Pulp Fiction 1993. So like there's some, what's going on in these years in 1986, 1993, where like the universe is colliding and like atoms are crashing into each other to make this magic happen. I don't know what's going on. Look, I would, if I had a time machine that I had a thousand uses for, one of them might be to go back in time, to go buy a ticket to go watch Forrest Gump and go pick up the Wu-Tang album. I would go to San Diego Comic-Con in the 70s, pick a year, I don't even care.

57:13
Okay. I got one more note on here that I wanted to bring up and it was a scene where Frank Miller, uh, I think it was Frank Miller and Bill Sienkiewicz, uh, are in the studio together and Bill Sienkiewicz is bringing up like, are you tired of like having to answer the question of like, is, is comic books, uh, what do you say? Is it comic book? Is it fine art or sequential art? Yeah. Yeah. And Frank is like, well, and Bill obviously is like, I'm just so tired of answering that. But Frank chimes in and says like,

57:43
You can go back as far back as Egyptian hieroglyphics. And that is like the earliest form of sequential storytelling, it's like pictures telling a story. And I've heard comic books put in so many different ways that has made me appreciate the art form in certain ways, but hearing him say that, and then obviously he had a bunch of quotables throughout the movie. You know what I'm saying? Like Frank Miller, I think he sees life in pictures and words, you know? Like that's what makes him so great is that

58:13
He really does see the beauty in the art form and he's able to encapsulate it and express it through his work. Not only that, but just his views, man. Him going to all those museums just to see old artifacts and old pictures, you know what I'm saying? That shit is ingrained in him. Yeah, and it's wild to think that someone like Frank Miller, who again created works like Sin City and Electra Assassin and all these very dark books.

58:41
also really loves Calvin and Hobbes. Like he mentions very specifically in the doc, like Calvin Hobbes is his favorite comic of all time. And I just found that really interesting. Yeah, this doc definitely shows you, there's more to him than like the grim dark stuff. And you know, there's a very interesting human being that doesn't just love comics, but I think he loves something greater than comics. And that's just storytelling. I think that's what it is. It's like, he truly understands how to tell a story.

59:10
And it makes you appreciate people that take storytelling seriously and can elevate it to that. Yeah. Can I ask you really quick before we close the book? I want to go back just a little bit. Back to 1986, just a gun to your head, you've got no choice. Are you picking Watchmen? Are you picking The Dark Knight Returns? OK, this should be a lot harder. But considering that it took me a while to come around to Dark Knight Returns. But when I did, it was like, oh, this is genius work.

59:39
I gotta go Watchmen because that one I did not miss. That one instantly just took everything I thought about comic books and just rearranged my brain. Coming as just a Marvel kid that was only reading the books in his dad's collection, which were very Marvel heavy and early image reading Watchmen when I did. I still have that copy that I read all those years ago. That shit is beat to hell, but I will never.

01:00:07
Like if my house should knock on wood, fire in the house, and I got to only grab one thing, I'm going in there and grabbing that Watchmen reader copy I got. And it's the exact one you're showing on camera. Yep, it's the exact one. This Watchman that I have right here is, I bought it when I was in eighth grade, right? Like this, and also I still have my original, like these two are among the first comics I ever bought in my entire life. The Dark Knight Returns and Watchmen. So, but to kind of build on what you're saying, yeah, it's Watchmen. I don't know how close it is. It's relatively close, I'd say. It's worth pondering for sure.

01:00:37
I wouldn't blame anyone that says The Dark Knight Returns, but Watchmen just for me is a yearly read. I pick up something new every single time that I read it. I actually wrote my thesis on it. My last thesis that I had in college was about Watchmen and how the journalistic splices in the middle were about the Hooded Justice, which eventually became the TV series. I had always theorized of certain elements of the Hooded Justice. There's just so much to dive into with.

01:01:04
with the Dark Knight, excuse me, with Watchmen, but also the Dark Knight Returns as well. I think the Dark Knight Returns is having a really interesting conversation with the reader about not only Batman, but comics in general. But I just think Watchmen is just so far and away. I mean, there's a reason why Time Magazine made it one of the greatest novels of all time. I think it was like number 12 too, which is crazy to think that not only was it the only comic, but it was at number 12, like it's just wild. So yeah, it's Watchmen. If you would have asked me, you know, like Watchmen and Daredevil born again,

01:01:34
That would be a tough one. That would be a really tough one. Cause I've gone on record saying, I think Daredevil Born Again might be like my favorite comic of all time. And I still stand strong by that, but I think it would be a run for its money against Watchmen for me personally. I need to read that, that Sinkavage Miller, Daredevil that they did too. Not the Electro Assassin, but the one, the oversized one that they did. World's Collide, I think, or something like that. No, it's like Love and War, I think. Yeah, yeah. But I need to find that.

01:02:03
Yeah, that one is really trippy and done really well. It's built in cabbage. You're in for a treat. But you know what, Chris, we obviously have gone over the time that we thought it was, but this was too good not to. Only 30 minutes. It's Frank Miller. You know what I'm saying? He deserves all the time we can give him. But it is getting mad late, and we both got responsibilities in the morning. And you know what? I wasn't going to drop a new episode this week. I was going to do a short bikes classic, but I think I'm going to let all.

01:02:32
listeners enjoy this one because I think Frank Miller in the same vein as this documentary, we got to celebrate Frank Miller. And I hope that we get more documentaries like this done at this scale too, at this quality. And you know, I think the, the live, you know, limited screening, you know, maybe a little annoying to those that weren't able to enjoy it. But I think for those that did it, it was really special. And I wouldn't mind seeing more documentaries like this.

01:02:58
Hopefully with a better ending, because I will say the ending for this doc. I was like, wait, what? Are we just going to end it right there with funky French house music to take it back to Daft Punk? I was like, okay, that was abrupt. But yeah, Chris, I appreciate you hopping on, man. Do you got any parting words, anything you weren't able to say? No, I just, I think I would implore people to, again, while it has faults and I think that it doesn't tell the entire story, I think that this is a really wonderful documentary about a man who deserves more.

01:03:29
Um, more analysis, I'll say. I think what, what I've learned tonight from Frank Miller is not enough. I think if nothing else, it's sparked my curiosity, not only with him as the man, but him as the creator. And I want to, I like, if I had all the time in the world and not a podcast and no work, I would just go through and read everything that he's done. Like that's the kind of curiosity that I have. And to kind of speak on that, if I can just tentatively tease something, if you want to hear more conversation with the man himself, I would, I would say stick around and, and

01:03:59
Keep your eye on the Oblivion Bar podcast for reasons. I wish I could just plainly say it, but I feel like if you can't pick up what Chris is laying down, um, you maybe you don't deserve to enjoy what potentially could be happening over there on the oblivion bar. But nonetheless, uh, Chris, I appreciate your big time, uh, to the listeners that, uh, I've made it this far. Thank you guys so much for making it this far in a very free flowing episode. You guys know I am. I'm pretty rigid. I always got to outline.

01:04:27
But I wanted to do something fun for you guys and this was a lot of fun. It was fun Hell yeah, so thanks for tuning in. Please check out Chris and Aaron over at the oblivion bar I'll have links to their to their show in these show notes But however, you're listening to this just go type in the oblivion bar hit subscribe Give them a listen as you can tell Chris has got some good shit lined up Like as someone that talks to him just about every day I've got all the inside scoops if you love the interviews I do you're going to fucking love what Chris has got lined up next

01:04:57
But with that being said, thank you guys so much for tuning in, my outro is coming in. I've got more episodes on the way. Make mine and yours short box and I'll catch you later, right? Peace! There you have it short box nation, that's the end of the show. Thank you for hanging out, thanks for being here, and a special shout out if you made it this far. If you enjoyed this episode and you have some thoughts or comments that you want to share with us, write us at theshortboxjaxx at gmail.com.

01:05:27
And if you really liked this episode, help us spread the word. Share this episode with a friend or someone you know that loves comics as much as we do. And don't forget to leave us a five star rating and review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify or wherever you get your podcast. It takes two minutes tops and it would mean the world to us. So leave us a review. Now, if you want more content like bonus episodes or perks like early access and commercial free episodes, and in some cases, free comic books.

01:05:53
consider joining our Patreon community at patreon.com slash The Short Box. It's an easy and very affordable way to support the show and get rewarded for being a fan. Once again, sign up at patreon.com slash The Short Box. Speaking of our Patreon community, I wanna give a big shout out to our current members, including Adam Chittani, Tony Aupi, RC Gamet, Blake Simone, Blythe Brumleaf, Bo Evers, Brian Brumleaf, Chad Lannenberger, Chris Hacker, Chris Jinx, Kenny Myers, David Morales.

01:06:22
Triple D Mystic, Dominique Jackson, Errol White, Edbot 5000, Generation Jaguar, Greg Hopkins, Greg Lichthaag, Henry Hernandez, Hershel, Hydrus96 aka Mac J. Sinner, Jeff Frimmett, Jerome Cabanatan, Joshua Miller, Justin McCoy, Kara Reichardt, Cassie Whitley, Corey Torteson, Matt Godwin, Amanda Marin, Nick Wagner, Podcasters Assemble, Steven Gamet, T-Mix, The Wait For It Podcast, Thomas Pandich, Thurian,

01:06:52
Trey Nommo, Walter Gantt, Warren Evans, and Zach Armour. Thanks again to everyone that listens and supports this show. Be sure to come back next week for a new episode. And most importantly, take care of yourselves, read a good comic, and continue to make mine and yours short box. I'll catch you soon. Peace!