Manga Babies: An Interview w/ David Harper about Manga and where to start - The Short Box podcast Ep. 452

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in this episode of The Short Box.

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To some degree, if there is a real difference, it's that there's no limits on  what a manga story can be versus  there's capitalistic requirements where it's like, oh, I gotta be able to sell this. This has gotta be sci-fi or fantasy or superhero or whatever. You know what saying?

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intro music plays

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Yo, short box nation. Hello again. Welcome back. It's another Wednesday, another new podcast. Thanks for pressing play today. And you might have noticed the new  intro music  brought to you by the very talented Matt Vigo, AKA Def Stroke Sounds,  who  worked on this for about a month  with all of the different notes I've had.

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It turned out great. So big shout out to Matt Vigo. And if you're new to the show, welcome to the show. My name is Badr and this is the Short Box Podcast, the comic book talk show that brings you the best conversations about your favorite comics with the creators that put their blood, sweat and tears into making them  as well as introducing you to other comic book enthusiasts who making comic culture a better place. Today, you'll hear from David Harper. He's not only a returning guest,  but he's best known for being the host of the weekly comics interview podcast off panel.

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and the creator of the Eisner nominated subscription comic website, sketch.com. You can learn more about what David does and how he got his start in comic journalism by going back to episode 392. This was a comic book. This would be the little editor box. See issue 392 for David Harper's first roadblocks appearance,  which I'll have linked in the show notes.  But for this episode, I've invited David back on the podcast to talk about a different kind of comic journey,  a shared one.

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David and I have both started taking a bigger interest in manga and how manga is made and distributed around the world. And he's written some awesome long form articles and interviews  about the topic, which I'll have linked  in the show notes. But the goal of today is to share our notes,  experiences about our fandom, our relationship with manga and all of that. So if you're someone who has been a manga curious or you need some direction or recommendations about where to start, we are in the right place. Now, before I officially bring David on,

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I'd like to give a big shout out to the longest running sponsor of the podcast. That's Gotham City Limit Comic Shop. It's Jacksonville's premier shop for comics, collectibles, toys, and more. You'll hear more about them later this episode, but might I recommend if you're local to Jack's or ever find yourself passing through Jacksonville, whether it be on a vacation or road trip, stop by in person. It's on Southside Boulevard by Tencent Town Movie Theater. Tell them the short box entry. Tell them I sent you. You'll get hooked up some killer discounts. Or if traveling is out of the question, Jacksonville is too far for you. Well, check out their online store for great deals on shop exclusive comics.

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and other cool stuff at GothamCityLimit.com. And we can't talk about supporters of the show without giving an honorable mention to the short box patrons who make it possible for me to keep this podcast going. Big shout out to my Patreon subscribers. I'll shout out all of y'all by name at the end of the episode. And if you're listening and you're like, man, I would love a shout out myself.

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Or you just want to pitch in to help me keep this show alive. Consider becoming a member of the Short Box Patreon community at patreon.com slash the short box. And look, you can always support the show for free by subscribing to the podcast, sharing with friends and family who also love comics as much as you do and or leaving a five star review on your podcast app of choice. But for the good stuff like bonus episodes, early access to all the weekly shows and commercial free episodes and in some cases free comics and short box merch, you got to be a patron.

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So once again, become a Short Box patron saint at patreon.com slash the Short Box and a big thank you to all the existing and future patrons of the show.  And now we can start the show. Short Box Nation without further ado, let's talk some manga with my favorite comic journalist. Let's re-welcome David Harper to the show.  What up David?  I am always impressed by  how professional you are with all this stuff. are.

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a well-oiled machine and I am just a hot mess machine. So it's always nice to see a pro at work. The short box does not have, eyes are nominated in front of it. like, well, I guess technically the  website is eyes are nominated off panel. Not yet though. I foresee it in the future though. I would be curious as to whether or not the people who voted to nominate it or whatever even factored the podcast into it. I have no idea. I here's, here's the funny secret and not really a secret cause I wrote about it.

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When I was nominated for an Eisner, I didn't even submit my stuff. I don't know who did submit it, but somebody submitted me. And so I had absolutely no part in myself being nominated. I will take it, but I have no idea if all panel was part of it. Yeah. Well, damn, big shout out to that secret admirer. So I invited you on the pod this week for this special topic because it seems that we both have a similar goal in increasing our coverage on Manga.

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on both our respective platforms. think we've even traded recommendations in terms of things that we're reading. I think, to say the same, we're also both interested in how manga is made, distributed, all of the business side of it as well. You think that's a safe assumption? I don't want to just assume. think we're definitely on parallel journeys. To be honest, mine is more, I just want to go further down that path and see where it takes me and see what...

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I'm going to get out of it. I wrote a piece on sketched about my exploration of manga. And one of the reasons why I decided to kind of go further down that path is because I was talking to somebody in comics at San Diego Comic Con, who like when I asked, what would you like to see it more of? And the person was just basically like, there's very little manga. And so I kind of took that on as a challenge. I'd read a lot of manga. Like if you go back to the first year of 2015 for sketched.

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One of the first pieces I did was  basically a ranking of the cast of 20th Century Boys, Naoki Urasawa's series.  so, you know, I've read, I've dabbled, I've dabbled for years, but I've never really kind of dove into it.  so mine has mostly just been about like, what does this have to offer and what have I been missing and like, what's good out here? And it turns out when you have like  decades and decades of options to pick from.

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you got a lot of really great stuff waiting for you as I'm sure you've discovered as well. Oh yeah. I actually read that article  that you're referencing and I'll have that linked in these show notes for any listeners. Yeah. It got me thinking about my relationship with manga and how it's kind of always been a part of like my comic book fandom. But I feel like in the  recent years, I think it's safe to say since like 2019, I've really ramped up like how much manga I consume. think prior to that, it was always something like, like you said, I kind of dabbled in.

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If there was a strong recommendation from a friend, I would check it out. But since 2019, it feels like it's really kind of like taking my, you just like interest by storm. One of the questions I had for you is like, you know, what have you been reading? What has like really stood out? So it got me thinking like, well, what have I been reading these last couple of years? I realized I've read a lot of manga in digital form and the benefit to that is, and I don't know, I feel like I've kind of increased my just like reading comics period in a more digital format just because of space costs and things like that.

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But the benefit I think with reading digital is that I also take a lot of screenshots of like pages that like are either really cool or speak out to me. So my iPad is like a great kind of time capsule of all the different things I've read. I won't say it's new, but there's so much I don't know. As someone that's like been doing this podcast that is interviewing creators and learning so much about like how American comics or Western comics are made, I realized that it's such a big blind spot for me in terms of like, well,

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How is it done in Japan and how was the distribution like in the marketing and things like that? Is that similar for you? Are you like approaching it with any particular  goal in mind or like what you know about the business? How does that compare?  Well, I mean, the tricky thing with manga is the fact that there's like two layers to it, right? Where it's,  it's all produced in Japan  or I mean, I guess technically there is like some distinctions in terms of regionality when it comes to like manga and like other

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forms,  other similar forms. But  it's all produced in Japan. so what we actually get so like, just had a piece where I edited, or I reviewed, got reviewed, interviewed this media editor, Holly Fisher, and we talked about Kegoshinzo's work, Kegoshinzo's work, the mangaka behind  hiriyasumi and  Tokyo alien bros, which are two of my favorites.  And

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It's interesting to kind of get her perspective on it because you realize that what they're really doing is adapting something that already exists into English rather than like doing kind of the work we expect from a typical editor. They like, they never talk to the creators. never like, they don't edit the work itself. They're just trying to manifest it in English in the most reflective way possible. And so it's, it's interesting because like,

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It's such a big world and to really dig into the actual roots of it, you would have to go and engage with the  Japan side of manga to dig into it. for me, it's mostly... This is to start with, my whole thing is I just want to engage with as a fan because one of the things that's really cool about it is, and maybe you feel like this too, it simultaneously feels very familiar because it's just comics, manga is...

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Manga is comics, that's all it is. But it also feels fresh because it's like this entire world I haven't really dove into in a significant way. And so the weird combination  of  familiar yet completely fresh  is  really exciting for me as a reader. Well said. Yeah, I think  that definitely resonates with me as well, where it's like, well, this isn't something completely out my wheelhouse. It's just like a different flavor.

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that I'm getting to enjoy and like learn a bunch of new things like the similarities and differences, which we'll get into later on, are really fascinating. And speaking about that piece that you referenced your interview with  the Viz editor, I read that last night and if anything, it made me realize that the role of an editor  is  highly, I think, under,  I wouldn't say underappreciated, I think it's underrated, especially when you consider like...

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an editor in her role that is  working to not only translate the Japanese text to English, but also having to bridge the gap culturally between  the nuances and intricacies of Japanese language to finding an English equivalent, I thought  was really fascinating. It's much more than just doing an A to  A conversion. It's like adding some nuance and

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I want to say steering the story, but making it palatable to English readers. So a solid piece, I guess, is where I'm getting at on that. It's also, used the word flavor earlier. It's not changing the flavor. It's making the flavor palatable to a different audience so we understand those references. And it is really interesting to think about the subtle differences there. Can I bring up one thing you brought up earlier, though? Yeah, please. You talked about your iPad and how you can go through and actually figure out what you read.

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One of the funny things is when I go through my iPad, I can actually see exactly when I did oral histories because  when I'm like,  when I'm going through it, like  doing an oral history and I'm rereading everything, you can just see like  hundreds of screenshots of like things from Marvel Unlimited, for example, where it's like a moment from Secret Wars or a moment from this or a moment from that.  And it is kind of funny how our iPads in some ways  have become, at least for you and I, like an historical document.

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A historical document, exactly. It's like our personal history of our relationship with comics in some ways. And I'll be honest, whenever I, you know, I sometimes dread doing my end of year list or making a best of year list, because if I haven't read it digital, then it's really hard for me to forget. that's, you know what saying? So that's the benefit of going digital is that like I don't have to think that hard about what I read in January. There's probably a screenshot somewhere there. Yeah. I feel like in recent years,

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Depending, I guess, on what space you're in, whether that be social media wise or maybe certain circles, it almost feels like that it's been pitted against US comics, know, Western comics that manga is here to eat our lunch or they are eating our lunch, depending on, you know, who you're here from. They're eating our lunch. know, Marvel and DC are doomed. Anime is killing it and things like that. As someone that has worked in the comic journalism space for, I mean, you said you had the pod, you're celebrating 10 years of the podcast, at least 10 years.

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I guess, when did you first become aware of that conversation? when did- Do you mean like when did they become adversarial? Yes. Yeah. Yeah. So I mean, it really depends.  like, there's  probably as long as like the two art forms have existed and like people had access to them, there have been some, you know how it is. It's like sports  where it's like the Yankees and the, and you know, the, the Mets are like, you know, the,  I don't know.

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Our teams are playing tonight in the NBA, Miami Heat and Indiana Pacers. There used to be a beef there where like, you know, the fans didn't like each other and the teams didn't like each other and yada, yada, yada. And so there's by nature, there's always going to be some sort of adversarial nature between them. I mean, you can really trace America's relationship with manga back to like, there was a manga boom in the early 2000s when translation started really coming through. That was like kind of the first big one that kind of fell off. And then like,

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the really big boom that we're still in. Kind of started around like 2019, 2020. And that was when it went from like, popular to like, outrageously popular when people started doing the, you know, those social media posts where it's like, look, this is the section of manga in Barnes and Noble. And here's the sad, basic one bookshelf for graphic novels that should be embarrassed for itself.

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Here's the thing. I understand the desire to be adversarial. I deliberately brought up the fact that our teams have been rivals in the past in the NBA. I don't know, for me, I always find the idea that comics and manga are adversarial is to be silly. It's just really silly to me because they're all comics. If you can read one, you can read the other. It's just one you have to go right to left, the other one you have to go left to right. It's not rocket science.

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webtoons, comics. mean, it's also it's like there's some people who are like, I'm ride or die with either  Marvel or DC or the big two superhero comics versus indie stuff. Even though India itself is a terrible descriptor of like the totality of everything else in Western comics besides big two stuff.  And or like single issue comics versus graphic novels. These are not adversarial products, they're complimentary products.  And  not to completely derail your question, but like

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I would say that the adversarial nature has existed as long as there's been fans of both  and the entire time it's been silly. Well said. to sum it up, the perfect summation, human nature. Got it. Human nature to always pit each other against each other. Human nature loves a beef. Ain't that the truth? Thinking about that meme you're talking about, the empty bookshelf of manga versus like American comics. A few months ago, I took my nephews  to go see the new Sonic movie.

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things like Sonic 3. And we stopped into the Books of Million that was attached to the theater. And my nephew, the oldest one, I believe he is in like the sixth grade, maybe seventh, no, definitely like sixth, seventh grade. The other one is like still in elementary school. They had to walk to the comic book section because they were with me. But the comic book section is right by the manga section.  And I was so blown away by just how well they knew  the oldest one.

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like all of these different mangas and how much he had read. I there was, I started just pointing at some like, what about this one? You know, and he's like, oh yeah, that one's pretty good. It's got to anime. This one's pretty good. So I think there is something to be said that a, you know, the younger generation maybe leans maybe to, I mean, I don't have any stats to back it up, but just this anecdote right here, but,  but compared to like what he was familiar with on like the, Western comics, know, your Marvel DCs, he just had no interest in, in a way I was like, wow, I think I might've failed him as an uncle.

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think so. I mean, I don't think you failed him as an uncle as much as...  I'm trying to think of a way to phrase this in a way that isn't insulting. It starts a beef in the way that I say that I don't like. I think that manga is smarter about how... Like all the manga publishers are really smart about how they roll this stuff out and how they build audiences.  And I think that Western comics are pretty bad at it.

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And I think a big part of the, mean, like to some degree you could be like, oh, it's like they got, they have better PR team, but at the same time it's like, oh, here's a good question. Do you watch anime? I was actually going to ask you that. Are you part of the manga to anime pipeline? And I can say, no, I have, I've watched anime. mean, you know, I to kind of like not to derail your question, but to go back to what you were saying about that, that, that two thousands boom of like translation really.

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you know, ramping it up and we were getting so much, you know, manga coming from, you know, not just manga, but anime from Japan coming.  I feel like that was kind of the inception of my,  you know, curiosity and love of the art form was like the Shonen jumps that we were getting, you know, the, the cartoon network and things like that. I just don't seek out anime myself and I'm much less, I don't really have that much time to like, you know, invest in a long form series. And I've always find, find that I would rather read the manga.

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I could just read it faster than sitting through  a two-hour block of episodes.  yeah. The other thing too is my wife has watched all of Bleach and she loves Bleach even though she also kind of hates Bleach.  I don't know how familiar with Bleach you are, but  she has watched that entire series. The funny thing is because of the way that would be rolled out, they would often have portions of the previous episode in the new episode.  So every time you would watch an episode, was always a bit of the previous episode and the-

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And so she found that terribly infuriating, but it was kind of the nature of like what of like trying to make sure that these episodes make sense to like newer audiences. But the reason why I bring up anime is because  in how it relates to your, uh, you know, your family in that way is that like, I think the superpower  of this past boom and the superpower of why it's so easy to get into anime is like you think about, you think about Fantastic Four first steps coming out in July, right?

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If you say, oh, you you should read this so you can get prepared for it. What the hell would you even recommend to somebody? It's just like nothing makes any sense whatsoever. Meanwhile, it's like, if you watch, let's say all of spy family that is out right now on crunchy roll, when you're done, if you want to keep engaging with that story, you can just buy the manga volumes and will literally continue the story exactly as is because the manga or the anime is an adaptation of the manga in a direct way.

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that adaptations of Western comics almost never are.  And that makes it so easy on, you know, your nephew, was it? Yeah, my nephew. Your nephew, my wife, you know, anybody who wants to do that. It is the perfect gateway into reading  into reading manga. And that's like the funny thing is, is like you would think that it would go manga to animate, but instead a lot of the readership was created anime to manga. And so

20:28
If there's any reason why like  manga is eating Western Comics lunch, it's because they make it so much easier on people who have developed a cursory interest because of adaptations.  like what you said about the manga seemingly seems to have a better PR team. I recently read an article about how some of the biggest manga publishers are investing heavily into AI to translate a lot of the work in multiple languages.

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And I mean, you they're investing like millions into like the software that was developed at  the University of Tokyo to like make sure that, you know, they can increase their global reach with manga. And I found that really interesting. And it made me think like,  are any of these Western  publishers even thinking about like translating their comic books in multiple languages, not just, you know, like Spanish or maybe some of the more common popular ones or large ones, but like, you know, to that granular level, it feels like

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manga publishers are really good at thinking about global, at a global level. You think that America has gotten manga crazy. You should see France. France is like, oh, it's nuclear there. I do want to say really quick, given the conversation I had with Holly Fisher from Viz about the art of editing and translating manga, oh my god, the AI thing is going to be an absolute nightmare. I will say, yeah, mean, that is the

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Foreign licensing for American comics is a lengthy process and getting it translated into other languages is not something... A lot of them get translated into French and a lot of them get translated into other languages, but it's a process that isn't typically as quick as it is for manga. I  also think that you have a worldwide audience that's fervent and  desperate for more of this stuff.  It is interesting how that works.

22:21
I think a lot of it really, I mean, I don't know where you want to go with this, but I think like, here's one thing I think is really interesting. We think of American comics as having all these iconic characters and they do, but like the vast majority of the iconic characters are like, honestly, like belong to generations that precede you and I to some degree. Like Superman is his peak, arguably was like decades ago, you know, Batman is still is forever popular.

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But at the same time, he's been popular since the 1930s and 40s. when you look at the manga that's really popular and the anime that's really popular and the stuff that your nephew probably was pointing to, it's like you look at My Hero Academia and there's all these characters that people are just like, these characters are awesome. They look cool. You look at Jujutsu Kaisen. You look at One Piece.

23:19
Any comic con in the world, you're going to see like a million Luffy's because Luffy looks cool.  like, that's why I mean, like, I don't know if you've ever talked to him, but like James Tynan is like learned a lot from manga in specific in regards to character because he realizes how valuable cool character designs  are to  making people connect with stories. And that's it. That's like a huge superpower for manga. think I heard him talk about that at a.

23:46
At C2E2, there was a James Tinian panel with the artist that he's working with on something that's killing the children. And that was one thing they brought up was the main characters. mask. Yeah, the mask was a cool factor in how far that went in terms of, like you said, people resonating and wearing the mask, buying the mask, and merchandising. So that is an interesting point. To go back to your earlier point about that ease of access, how easy it is to like

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on board someone to manga. It's like, we'll just read volume one and just follow it along. At some point, the anime might stop here, which I think incentivizes a lot of people to jump into the manga that  maybe aren't,  don't want to wait a year or two for season two. It's like, well,  I want something now and the manga will pick up that story immediately. I think that is definitely a pro,  a smart move.  I guess that's just an interesting part of that pipeline, the animated manga pipeline. But I would almost say  as a counterpoint,

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On the topic of one piece, my buddy Drew is a one piece fanatic. think he's like pretty much caught up with the manga. I mean, it's thousands of chapters at this point. I don't know how many volumes, but it's thousands of chapters. And I know I don't have the time or really interest to like  start at volume one. And I think that is one thing about manga that I think Western comics does right is that.

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Like  I was asking him like, is there just the story arc I can jump in for one piece and maybe like get a feel for? I don't want to start from the beginning. Like, is there somewhere in the middle I can jump in that kind of like will get me enticed? And it was kind of really hard for him to answer that versus like, say, you know, if you wanted to read something, you know, Spider-Man related, you could point at like certain arcs that, you know,  you don't necessarily need to know everything about the character or the plot.

25:34
because you kind have a basic premise of it. And those story arcs are little more digestible. I do see that  as a difference I've got noted here is that, yeah, you can start from volume one, but it's a lot harder to start in the middle of a manga series versus a comic book one because there's so many spinoffs and self-contained arcs.  The funny thing, there's so many different layers to this that I find really fascinating. Let's get into it, David. This is what I'm here for. We can do a part two of Nebi. I know the game is coming on soon.

26:03
Well, so the volume one part is interesting because like, think, I mean, that's part of the reason why The Walking Dead invincible became as popular as they were too, right? Is because like, where do you start volume one? Boom. It's then it's ease of access. But at the same time, like, I do think that manga  and Western comics have a lot of the same roadblocks in the sense that like, it's a lot easier to be like, I'm going to start

26:30
with this series that just had a first issue or a volume one come out rather than I just looked it up 110 tankabans  of one piece. like sometimes that can be imposing.  And the interesting thing though is I think that while  I think that the  the Western comics industry,  the American comics side of things has kind of made it

26:56
more difficult, like because they're constantly restarting. And so they're giving people jumping on points. But at the same time, it also doesn't give you anything to really hold on to. I think that we live in a binge society. And for the average person, while I'm with you on I don't want to read 110 volumes of One Piece. A lot of people do like people will binge watch things on Netflix just because I mean, look at that suit show. Like suit show was suits was completely forgotten. It was just kind of a show.

27:23
And then I got Netflix and then people were like, this is the greatest thing ever because there's a lot of it. And so I think for a lot of people, the volume isn't a hindrance as much as it is as an appealing thing. And again, this goes back to the PR side of things, right? Is like American comics have fought against that. They always feel like they need to give people, I guess, jumping on point. I kind of feel like if there was just like amazing Spider-Man volume.

27:52
Like you start with the first trade and it's volume one and now we're on like volume 80 or something like that. I feel like people would probably like that more. Like, I feel like that'd be easier for like the average person. I want to say Marvel is doing something like that with a certain trade line where they are trying to like put, maybe I'm thinking about DC where they've got like this chronological like kind of timeline on the back of like this new trade series that kind of gives you an idea of what timeline it is.

28:17
They've had starts and stops with that. They just never really committed to it. But yeah, I mean, it is an idea. But I don't know.  just I think the thing that's interesting about manga in American comics is like they have so many similarities that like I think a lot of people sleep on because of  the  aforementioned beef. Yeah. I want to get into more about the similarities and differences. I've got a little running list. But you mentioned  James Tinian and him drawing a lot of inspiration from manga. Is there when you think about

28:46
the hundreds of interviews that you've done up to this point. Like, is there any other comic creators that have shared, like, anecdotally  or, like, that you know, like, really kind of, like, find inspiration from reading manga or have, like, cited, you know, a specific manga as, some sort of source of inspiration or any of that come to mind? I would say that the average comic artist today heavily has  manga as an influence. I mean, a really good one is Daniel Warren Johnson. Daniel Warren Johnson, Appleseed is a really big one for him.

29:15
And so,  and I know he loves manga.  but I mean, I remember talking to him about, I want to say Murder Falcon, and he was talking to me about basically how important Appleseed was for him and like coming across that as like something that like helped him grow as an artist.  And,  and that was a manga series that is absolutely like you look at it and you're just like, holy crap, this is unbelievable.  I'm trying to think of other ones.

29:43
mean, it's not really something that I bring up in specific very often, unless there's like a really clear reason to do so. I  honestly it's sad, like the only ones I can specifically think of are Daniel Warren Johnson and James Tynan, but at the same time, there are plenty more I can swear to that. I add to that because you brought Daniel Warren Johnson and  a name that came to mind to me for me was Juan Gideon, is the artist on, oh  my God, Jurassic League with Daniel Warren Johnson.

30:13
I interviewed him, I think, last year the year before, and he brought up how just influential manga was to him. And I want to say he was raised in Brazil. Hopefully, I'm not saying that wrong, but he spoke about  just how massive manga and anime the influence is to Brazilian culture and  Brazilian other comic artists that he knew. As matter of fact, he gave me a super solid recommendation when I interviewed him, that was  Hajime No Ippo. I guess I should also say really quick.

30:42
There's going some butchering of names. David, yes, damn it. Thank you. I want to go. I should have said this at the top of the show, but I want to put a blanket apology right now that there's going to be a lot of mispronunciations, a lot of butchering of names, and I apologize profusely. OK. And I guess that's another disclaimer is I think, David, you've always been really good at, you know, being humble about like, I'm no expert here. I'm, you know, just a fan coming in and appreciating things, which I resonate with. So for any listeners that

31:10
maybe have a correction, a recommendation, or want to chime into the conversation, I would love for you guys to email me at theshortboxjax.gmo.com or text me. I got a link in these show notes in case I say anything absolutely stupid. right. We are manga babies. is a big, we are like newly born to this world. We are no Debe Oki. We are no Christopher Woodrow Butcher. We are no David Brothers. This is not manga splaining. This is being manga splained. Exactly.

31:37
But  yeah, he had recommended to me Hajima no Ippo, which is like a famous boxing manga. Yeah. You know, and I guess that's what's been really fun to me is, and I think this stems from like  the lockdown and the pandemic was I wanted something new, something like just new to try. And I remember asking myself like, you know, you've basically read all of the  classic comic books, right? Your Watchmen, your Dark Knight Returns, you know, et cetera, et cetera.

32:06
And I could not ask, and I was like, well, what's the manga equivalent? Like what is their like Mount Rushmore or their like, you know, a genre class or I'm sorry,  medium classics.  And that led me down a road of like reading Akira and Lone Wolf and Cub,  which are all like in  my Mount Rushmore. But it's been a lot of fun trying to think in that regard is like what is considered the all time best manga. And it's

32:32
been really interesting to learn how old some of these series, like Hajime no Ippo I think is considered one of the best sports manga out there.  And just how old it is in comparison to some of the things I just named.  Yeah, I thought that was kind of interesting that a lot of their very old stuff still is revered and is still being re-released or  is quoted. Yeah, I mean, that's the really cool thing. If you're a listener who has never read manga before, but you've been reading American comics for forever,

33:01
You have like  decades  of amazing comics that you've never read in manga that like you're like, Oh, have you read Akira? And you're like, and you talk to a manga fan. They're like, of course. But like for somebody who's never read that it's going to like absolutely blow your mind. I think that one of the things that's really cool about it, my favorite part about my manga journey, again, I'm a baby of the manga world. I'm new to this stuff. I've went the opposite route as you. So my kind of manga journey really started

33:31
2014 or 2015 when I don't remember who, it  just kept coming up that 20th Century Boys by Naoki Urasawa is amazing. I started reading Naoki Urasawa, everything. I read all 20th Century Boys obsessively. is  the one B to the one A, one A being preacher of my favorite comics ever.  Then I read Pluto,  I read  Monster, I read  Master Keaton,  and I've read basically everything I can get a hold of  running from Naoki Urasawa.

34:01
And then I kind of like, I had some dabbling. read like way of the house husband. read one punch man and I read, you know, uh, Uzumaki by Junji Ito.  And it was just kind of like  the basic menu of, of manga stuff that was kind of hot at the time. And what has actually gotten me back into it, like I said, it's kind of opposite of you instead of going with the classics. I just started with volume one with a bunch of new things from 2024 and.

34:27
The interesting thing is, okay, so I'm gonna go down a list of some of the stuff I've read recently. One of them is one that you're all about. Sakamoto Days, I the first volume of that. That's  the former greatest hit man running a convenience store. Not something you'd find in American comics.  Witch Hat Atelier, which is absolutely staggering, Komome Shirahama,  is like the greatest artist I have ever seen, maybe. And it's about basically...

34:54
a person who didn't know magic falling into a world of magic and trying to save her mother  and  experiencing this whole new world.  My favorite, Kiri Asumi by Keigo Shinzo. This is just basically a slice of life story about this unflappable young man inheriting a house and bringing his cousin over to live with him in Tokyo and the life that they lead. Then one of my most recent ones is  Tatsuki Fujimoto's  Goodbye Airy, which is

35:23
the person who did Chainsaw Man and that's about this young man who basically makes a movie about his mother's life and death and then ends up befriending this other person and making a movie about her life and death and his entire experience with it. It's this one-shot story that is, again, unlike everything else. That's the thing is, I have a stack of books right here that I could just keep going through. It just astonishes me that

35:54
There are genres that just don't exist in American comics that are like omnipresent in manga. There's stories that are just being told that you would just never find. And I love that because  it feels like to some degree, if there is a real difference, it's that there's no limits on  what a manga story can be versus  there's capitalistic requirements where it's like, oh, I got to be able to sell this. This has got to be sci-fi or fantasy or superhero or whatever. You know what saying?

36:24
Yeah, well, I somewhere, I  heard it that  one of Japan's greatest exports is creativity. know, like manga and anime is like a huge export to them. And I think the fact that they revere  that  so much, think maybe empowers their creators to go for the gusto. think, and I really like, I think you might've said something to a similar effect in your  write up that it feels like manga creators

36:51
go, you know, they're just going for it, right? Like they have some of the wildest ideas, most, you know, out there ideas and they're not afraid to just try something, you know, just completely out of the box. And that really resonated with me because you do see some like just absolutely bonkers.  I mean, I think  the one that I always reference when I think of like bonker manga and comic book ideas is like a, there's like a rooster fighter comic book about a fighting  rooster,  which I think is absolutely.

37:19
Awesome. And I think you can kind of maybe find like some Western comic book equivalent, but I don't know if you find some absolute out of the box thinking in that like volume at that level in volume compared to manga. My wife has watched and will be watching whenever they come out with more of it.  Anime series. I don't remember the full title, but it's about a person who is resurrected as a vending machine.  And  it's like a  fantasy.  That's my new point of reference going forward.

37:48
It's like a fantasy Dungeons and Dragons style  adventure story where one of the main characters is literally a vending machine. Most recently, I've started reading this new,  there's like a new Ultraman manga. It's like high action. It's drawn amazingly. Available on the Viz app, which is, I just signed up for like a seven day free trial. I will say manga streaming apps are really worth the value.

38:14
the price you get. mean Shonen Jump is like three bucks a month, Viz Media App is like two bucks a month. So for five bucks a month, you have access to like  more manga than you could possibly read in a lifetime. it once again kind of goes back to what we're talking about in terms of like them making it very easy to like onboard  like readers by having like very low  barrier to entry and cost of entry to these comic books. When you kind of compare it to Western comics where you're not getting that same deal at all, whether that be

38:43
you know, Marvel limited app or even just like a floppy book, you know, for five bucks a month for five bucks, you're just getting one single issue. And I think I've read somewhere that that is like on purpose, like they have almost a, there's something called like the window pane effect where you start off with like trying to target in Western culture at least. And they, the, the specific examples, like movies. So like in Western culture, they're going for, you know, the, the diehard movie fan that is willing to spend $30.

39:12
at the movie theater to watch it and like the best experience. And then next, you know, it kind of go down that, that,  that funnel is like, then they release it on DVD. So now they're trying to target like that kind of middle ground person that's willing to maybe spend 15 bucks for a DVD and doesn't mind waiting for, you know, two months. And then, you know, then they're trying to target the free person, the guy that doesn't want to pay anything is willing to watch it on TV with ads. And maybe two years later, it's almost reversed when you look at like the manga business where it's, they're starting with

39:42
You know, they're they're producing  anthology comic books that have 20 stories printed on super cheap paper, no color at all. It's, you whatever, 10, maybe 15 bucks.  And they're trying to see, right, how many folks are willing to like pay at that price before we even make like a series, which is a little more costly. And then if there's enough clamor there, then they really invest in anime. So I think that's kind of an interesting way of  how they approach it.

40:10
I think that one of the fundamental differences between Western comics and manga comics, and manga is that  manga is seemingly oriented on creating readers.  American comics are seemingly created, are oriented on making as much money from existing readers as they possibly can rather than creating new readers. Now, I don't want to oversimplify and say it's just as easy to like just make new readers and stuff, but I mean,

40:38
$1.99 to 99 for those apps is pretty wild. I will say there is an interesting piece on aftermath that was about  manga up  and I want to say K manga, which are two different apps from  I don't want to say the name came on this Kodansha and I think manga up is Square Enix. But basically, like they've completely gamified the experience where it's actually kind of a grind to be able to read stuff on there. And so not all the apps are as good as Shonen Jump and as this manga.

41:08
But  I do think that fundamentally the intent seems to be focused on creating a greater pool of readers versus like, cause here's the thing is, like, if you, let's say you love Sockomoto days, right?  If you read like the first volume on Shonen Jump  and you're like, this is like the greatest comic ever. Odds are you're probably going to buy the print version of it for yourself. So you have it for yourself then.

41:35
And like, that's the thing is, like the low cost versions often create print purchases later.  And like, I think that's one of the things that's forgotten in this is people are thinking that like, can only make  like, not to make this about money, but it's like, you can only make money once. think that like making somebody passionate about something first is important. Yeah. And I think keeping that, and I think it's a genius move to keep it so low  at the very first, right? Like you're kind of getting a taste.

42:05
And you know, they go off of like popularity. Like if people are clamoring for this one story in this among 20 of them, then we clearly need to go ahead and start producing like dedicated taco bonds and volumes. Right. Right.  On the topic of  Shonen Jump and anthologies, I know we're bouncing around. I still got my list to share, but you had an interview with Jonathan Hickman, I think during the lockdowns or the pandemic. And he was talking about

42:30
His original plans for House of X, Power of X and he brought up I don't know if it was like an idea he had or a suggestion or something but he brought up the idea of like Doing a Shonen Jump style comic book that had all I guess like an anthology of X-Men stories. Do you think that? Would still do you think that would work? I guess if like a Marvel or DC decided to do a more, you know combine their weekly kind of titles into an anthology series that was printed on you

42:58
cheap paper or maybe, you know, I guess what a Shonen Jump for American comics. Do think that would work?  mean, maybe. I think that  I actually wrote like,  you would need to like have the right thing to do it with because the thing about like Shonen Jump is like you get a bunch of things that are kind of, I don't want to say that they're all different, but they're all the same flavor. it's like, odds are if you like,

43:24
one, you might like the other ones, or the very least you might find it interesting or within range of the other ones.  You couldn't just do it with anything, I don't think. But I  had recently pitched the idea of  what if you did a low-cost  anthology, kind of like Shonen Jump, of the absolute books that are coming out. So, it's like you have like Absolute Batman number one, Absolute Wonder Woman number one, and Absolute Superman  in kind of a Tonko Banz style thing.

43:53
product where it's just, I don't know,  9.99 or whatever.  And I think that theoretically that type of idea could be appealing to  comic readers. The problem is, like, it would have to work through the mechanics  of the direct market, meaning comic shops, and it would also have to be appealing to  bookstores. And one of the main problems is, like the

44:22
market in America has never really been super receptive to anthologies in the same way that Japan  is and was.  And I think that that is one of the difficult things. At the same time, I also think that  one of the problems with the direct market and the broader American comic industry is they base  a lot of what they think won't work based off of what didn't work before.  And times have changed dramatically.

44:52
Here's my take. I think it's worth a shot. The idea I think that Jonathan said was basically the dawn of X, the six books that they were doing at the same time, right after House of X and Powers of X. What if they did  a  Shonen Jump style collection of those where you could just have those going along? They did that where they were doing those  traditional trade paperbacks. Where it had the  first issues of all the series and the next trade was the...

45:19
second issues involved.  Yeah. so that's the problem is, is like, they just did it the way that they would do anything else instead of trying to make it like what he was talking about. And like, and that's the problem is, is like, I think that it could work, but I just don't think that you want to ever commit to it, if that makes sense. Yeah, I got to there. I want to revisit that. I want to get through this list real quick. So I've recently been rereading, uh, reading the, new, uh, Ultraman manga, which I highly recommend if you're someone that wants like,

45:47
you know, an action kind of story. It's as someone who has no relationship or I guess like familiarity with Ultraman, I found this stupid easy to jump into. And the best way I think I could describe it is like invincible meets Iron Man.  So and the art is like amazing. I've also been reading this series called Fool Night by Kasumi Yasuda, which I got to give David  you a shout out. But specifically there was a commenter on your site by the name of Zachary was his was his handle.

46:15
that had recommended it in the comment section of your mango write up.  So I decided to check it out because he compared the artist, Kasumi Yasuda, to Chris Bocciolo. And I gotta say, Zach, you are absolutely right.  And it is a great concept. The concept is that it takes place in like this,  the setting is that the earth no longer produces its own oxygen  and the sky has been like kind of blacked out. There's like plants can't grow at all. So now there's a procedure. They figured out a way to transform people into plants to give off the, you know, the

46:45
the life sustaining oxygen that we need. The catch is that you can only do this procedure if you're like within, if you have a terminal illness or you're expected to die in like the next two, three years. So not only do you get transformed to a plant and it takes two years to become a full on plant, but they also give you 10 million yen. So this kid who's like working in a factory, taking care of his mom is like really hard on his, it's kind of like kind of depressing story, but like he's just really hard on his luck, decides to like fake some tests.

47:13
to get this procedure done so he can get the money and get his mom the medications. But something goes awry and he can now talk to plants. So he ends up working for this agency, like solving mysteries and things like that. Very wild concept, amazing art. That's called Fool Night.  I did take your recommendation and I ended up reading the first volume of Hiroyasumi. And Tokyo Alien Bros, which you did warn me about the latter. Tokyo Alien Bros has a pretty wild scene  between a brother walking in on his other brother.

47:41
That left me fucking speechless. David, I  think I don't, you didn't spoil it for me. I think you were like, hey man, Tokyo Alien Bros is a little out there. There's one scene in particular  and that's all you said. And I was like, it can't be that crazy. It's...  As soon as you got to that scene, you knew what I was talking about, didn't you?  I was tempted to message you. was like, I'll wait till I see him. But yeah, yeah, manga is fucking wild sometimes people.  But Kigo, is it Kigo Shinzo? Kigo Shinzo, yeah. Dude, I know,  I see what you mean about Hiryu Yasumi.

48:11
being a slice of life. It's like chicken noodle soup for the soul. That's how it feels.  live in it.  It's like you just like go into this nice little vibe for a little while.  And also like the art is amazing and storytelling is so good.  mean,  that's like one of the great things about manga too is like how the art is not universally but like pretty typically pretty spectacular.

48:36
I mean, like, and  it's a wide variety of it too, which is really cool. There's so  many cool things that people do. Like I mentioned Goodbye Erie  by Tatsuki Fujimoto. And there's some really interesting stuff that he does in that. like,  the panels are all framed because he's filming stuff on a phone. so it's framed in that way. And it's just like, the art is so smart.  And I don't know, it's great.

49:02
Anyways, I'm sidetracking you for a listen. No, no, no, no. This is exactly what I wanted to get into. And you know, I'm going to skip the rest of my list because I honestly, I have like a list of 20. I've been absolutely consuming manga since like... You mean like a list of books or a list of... Yeah. I mean, like I said, my iPad, the historical records, I was like, holy shit, this is just from 2024? Quickly going through it, there's a Street Fighter manga that I have now read three times. It's called Ryu Final and it's supposed to tell the story of Ryu's last battle of Akuma.

49:32
drawn exceptional.  If you are a street fighter head that like wants more, I don't know, like lore, then this is definitely the manga for you, Ryu Final by Masahiko Nakahira.  Also in the last four years, I've read Asadora and 21st Century Boys by Nako Irasawa. I actually read 21st Century Boys based on your recommendations, the last time you were on the podcast.  And David, I won't lie to you, I would not do that journey again, but good God, I loved.

50:01
that series and all the twists and turn  and just gaslighting that this man did throughout that series. Absolutely brilliant. You're right. Like, Nakai Iwasawa is one of those names. And I guess that's another thing too, you know, is like, I know  what type of comics I gravitate towards, what type of creators I gravitate towards. You know, at this point it's like, all right, if Andy Cooper is drawing it, then I'll probably buy it.  If, you know, if James Heaney is writing it, I'll probably buy it.

50:30
But I don't have that in my back pocket when it comes to manga. So it's been fun, especially with Nakai Irasawa where it's like,  I've now liked 21st Century Boys, Pluto, Master Keaton. So he's kind of like entering that realm for me where it's like, okay, this is a name I can actually say off the top of my head.  And I know like, you know, based on past experiences, I'm probably going to like it.  I'm also rereading Dragon Ball Z in color, which...

50:56
is so interesting to experience when you consider mangas typically and for the most part in black and white and someone has done the painstaking, I guess, Viz is doing the painstaking work of  coloring Dragon Ball Z and it just reads in a whole different way. The way they color it is  some of the best coloring I've seen in any comic books. And then the rest of the list is like Slam Dunk, which was recommended to me by Chris Piers of the Comic Stroke YouTube channel. had him on the show a couple of years ago. He spoke so highly of Slam Dunk.

51:26
which is a basketball manga. Amazing, just absolutely amazing. And then obviously Lone Wolf and Cub and so on and so on. So yeah, that's been my list since 2019 is just kind of all over the place. David, do you find yourself gravitating towards any specific genre or kind of manga? I know you mentioned earlier the benefit of knowing you just start at volume one is that you can kind of try a bunch of different ones, but.

51:53
Have you found yourself, I guess, gravitating or liking a certain genre or type of manga a little more? Not really. I mean, the interesting thing is,  most of what I've kind of picked up has been very impulse oriented. It's not been deliberate where I've been looking like, what is a good action manga or something like that. I really like Taiyo Matsumoto's Tokyo These Days, and I got that because I was in Portland and

52:20
I was at Cosmic Monkey, one of the shops there, and it had just come out and they had the cover. This is the cover looks like. I love birds and it was very striking and it was this nice hard cover. I was like, I'm going to grab it. I got it and I loved it. It was amazing. Then, Hiriyasumi, Zaina Baktar from Shortbox Comics Fair, posted it on her Instagram stories and I was immediately like, that looks like something I would like. I got it.

52:49
I think a lot of it for me  is,  it's weird.  With American comics, I'm very high information, right? Like I know what's coming before it's coming and I'm part of it and yada, yada, yada. With this, I'm just, with manga, I'm just like, if it looks like something that's up my alley, I'm gonna check it out  and hope for the best. And if it doesn't work out, so what? And if it does work out, I'm buying volume two.

53:17
I guess personally speaking, I can quickly tell if I'm going to like a series and all it really does take is like a volume one. I think the way they structure their, their Tonko bonds, you know, I think, you know,  just kind of spit balling. think they're like a hundred pages, 130 pages. I feel like that is a perfect amount of commitment to figure out if I like a series. A lot of times I can just tell by like halfway and if I'm going to enjoy the series or not, but I haven't knowing that it's just volume one.

53:44
And you just kind of taste test that and it's like, if this is something I like, then I'm going to go through with the rest of it. Like you said, makes a manga like very appealing, just kind of like how easy you can dip in and out and like try a different things. will say  I read something last night that actually kind of. Kind of  I would agree with that until last night I read  it's actually magic and muscles. I may be mispronouncing that.  Hichima Komoto.  It's basically like Harry Potter, except for if the.

54:12
wizard kid that goes to the big university actually has no or the school has no skills in magic at all. But instead is just insanely strong because he's worked out for his entire life because his surrogate father told him he needs to exercise so he can like offset the fact that he is not magical in a purely magical world. And when I first started reading it, I was like, I don't know about this one. I'd actually bought it from my wife a few years ago because former employee of Big Bang Comics, JP Jordan, who is

54:41
My manga master  told me about that and recommended that, which had  Atelier and Sakamoto Days as things to buy for my wife, as things that she might future enjoy on Crunchyroll.  And I actually just read through the stuff that I got for her myself. And I was about like one or two chapters in and I was like, I don't even, I don't know if I really like this. And by the end, I was like laughing hysterically. And so it's interesting, like how

55:11
I do think you're right if you read an entire Tankelban and it doesn't speak to you, odds are you're probably not going to come around. But even in the process of that, because if you think about it, the first  couple chapters have to be set up.  And the further you go along, like this one had eight chapters in it, by the time you got to like six, seven, eight, it had everything set up and it just got to like the absurd gags.  And  I just I loved it by the end. was like, I was like literally.

55:39
laughing my ass off in bed.  Is there any Western comic that currently gives you a manga feel or a vibe? Knights by Wyatt Kennedy and Luigi Formosano.  It's an image comic series. Actually, it was just announced as being turned into an animated series by Titmouse.  It is an awesome comic, it's like it definitely, mean,  Wyatt admitted on the

56:06
on the podcast that like a really big influence for him was like the Funimation era of like Cartoon Network where it was like, you know, that's like the early 2000s stuff we were talking about where it's like manga was or anime was kind of coming over. And so it kind of has that vibe to it.  And  it's more like fantastical slice of life than it is like a lot of traditional American comics. And it's great. I really love it. I'll check that out.  I recently read the  absolute Batman Noir edition.

56:35
And is a great example of somebody who's Manga speak. Aside from it being like literally black and white like Manga, there was something about just the panel composition. think that something about the action, the way it was like choreographed. Nick Durgatta and Scott Snyder have something here that I think they're very much aware of like, you know, obviously this is me kind of like conjecturing and guessing, but it gives me such a Manga vibe, especially reading it in noir. Even afterwards reading it in color, I'm like, they've got something here that I think

57:05
I get from manga as well. Yeah,  I definitely agree.  I will say another thing  that Nick does that I think you see in some manga too is there's a little bit more story density. There's a little more panel heavy.  And  I think that a lot of American comics have kind of, you know, there's the varying grids and page layouts that work. mean, that's just... and true,  Tried and true.

57:32
I think that there's a little bit more adventurousness when it comes to  manga, when it comes to layouts and stuff.  I say that, but then you look at, I mean, again, you look at the Absolute Lion, look at what Hayden Sherman's doing and they are just doing wild stuff with the layouts.  I think Absolute Wonder Woman is definitely my favorite of the Absolute Lion just because of Hayden Sherman's...

57:56
panel composition and layout. It is such a fun book to just look at. know, like I find myself reading it three times. Once, you know, just to look at the panels and the art the other time to actually read the story. And then, you know, one more time to like get everything in. But yeah, Hayden Sherman is insane with it.  But talking about  panels and  the composition, pacing of manga,  since they are telling a linear story that has a jumping on, you know, a start point  and most of them are working towards an end point.

58:25
I find that manga, in my experience, is able to do a little more decompressed storytelling where they don't need to  keep the story moving. They can get away with like two pages of a character doing one single action.  I'm not saying like just talking heads, but it's a little more, I think, decompressed in a slower pace of storytelling versus like a series from  the big two that has to like...  I think  what you said earlier is applicable here where they are clearly trying to like...

58:56
You know, they're trying to sell this book versus like  Garner, like  a readership. So, you know, they're, they're bringing in the splash page. They want you to feel like you're getting your money's worth. So here's an action shot, a splash page, you know, we're keeping the story moving, pick up the next issue versus manga. feel like because they know they've got such a wider, a runway, they can do a little more slower decompressed storytelling and it doesn't feel like, you know, jarring or out of pocket.

59:23
I think part of that also comes down to the wants and desires of readers too, right? Because it's like, did you ever read the webtoon series Wayne Family Adventures about Batman's family? Just briefly, but I am familiar with it, Yeah, I mean, that's completely different. I  think the second story was about the Bat Family coming back from a night of fighting crime and they fight over getting one of  Alfred's famous cookies.  And that was the whole thing.

59:53
If you publish that as a single issue comic in Batman, the current run of Batman, fans would poop their pants.  it's just because that's not what they want, desire and or expect. But you can do that in Webtoon because that's what readers on Webtoon want, desire and expect.  Versus also manga where they have different wants,  and expectations. And so I think that the pacing, at least in part,  is

01:00:22
built from the fact that  the  expectation of what manga has to be is slightly different.  I mean, like Western comics do decompressed storytelling quite a bit,  you wouldn't like have, I don't know, like  you read here, here, Yasumi, I mean, there's like a lot of stuff in there that's just really slowly. I mean, it's not slowly paced, it's paced at the speed of life.  And that is  wonderful for that type of story. And

01:00:52
It is interesting how like the pacing expectation. I really do think it's just an expectations thing almost where it's like they're allowed to do things because that's what readers of manga want, you know? Yeah, that's fair. OK, I've got a note here about collectibility of manga and I don't know much about this, so I'm open to being corrected. But I guess I'm curious about what the collectibility or the  trivia, I guess a part of comic culture is like.

01:01:16
the trivia, right? Like knowing a first appearance, like people take pride in that, knowing stats, first appearances, you know, years and things like that, little Easter eggs.  And in my experience, don't, I guess I don't,  I don't know if that's, if that sense of pride is prevalent in manga, but then also collectibility is obviously like a big thing in American comics, right? Like CGC has made a whole business about it, grading comic books, the secondary market.

01:01:46
And I don't know anything about the collectability of manga. how many people, for as big as Goku is, how many people can tell you like the first appearance of Goku? Is that like a heralded thing? I had to actually look that up. He actually appeared in Shonen Jump in December 1984. Fun fact, you can go on eBay right now and there's multiple listings from like 600 bucks to 3000 bucks, which is kind of wild to me considering it's like.

01:02:13
Goku is one of the most recognizable characters, not just in like manga or anime, but like fictional characters in the world. And his first appearance is like, I'm gonna say it's like insanely reasonable, but considering like his popularity, I just find that  interesting. know, like the first issue Superman is millions of dollars, the Holy grail for many. But then, you know, the first appearance of Goku or Luffy is, you know, this might, so.

01:02:40
I guess any thoughts on that? have you thought about the collectability factor of manga in  that aspect?  I  don't normally think about that because that's just not how I view manga. I just view it as a reader.  I do know you can grade manga, which is hilarious. I've seen that too. I also know that like  there,  I think a lot of times,  manga collectability is less about like getting first appearances and stuff, or then it is just being able to say that you have this.

01:03:10
you know,  where it's like,  like, sometimes there's things that are just out of print, you just can't get any more. And if you're just like, I got this and people are like, Oh, my God, this person's elite, this person's got the juice.  And I do think that that is a key difference. I do wonder how much the first appearance of Goku I wonder how many were printed of that Shonen Jump. Because like at that point, Shonen Jump was like, I think the circulation was pretty high. And so like, I wonder how much of that is.

01:03:38
Superman. That was made in 1939 and then not many of those copies have survived over the years in any great shape. But I just don't really look at manga in that sort of way. It is kind of fascinating where that is a core divide. I think that the first appearance thing, a lot of that just kind of comes from the fact that it goes back to the volume one thing, right? It's like most of them just appeared for the first time in their first volume or

01:04:05
whatever Shonen Jump or whatever anthology they're in. It's  not really useful trivia, if that makes sense. I don't know.  How do you view it?  I'm interested.  I'm interested if the  secondary market in manga is as popular or as thriving as, say, Western comics. And more so the why. I think this is a very nuanced question.

01:04:33
that I would be curious to hear someone smarter talk about this. And for all I know, in Japan right now, there is someone that has all the first appearances, or it is a big market. But I don't think that has translated. I don't think Western comic readers are seeking those out. And I think that is just a, I don't know, I guess maybe because I want the first appearance, I want to be able to say I own the first appearance at Goku. So this is why I kind of added that. But I don't hear a lot of like,

01:05:00
manga fans talk about the collectibility or that. And it might go back to what you were saying where I think manga just kind of caters to breeding a readership, you know, where it's about the story, reading the story and, talking about the story and recommending it and things like that. And collectibility and resell is just maybe secondary or even third at this point. One of the funny things  when I read Tokyo These Days by Takao Matsumoto is that the main character is an editor.

01:05:30
former editor at that point, but becomes his own independent editor of manga.  And at one point in the story, he is selling off his own personal collection of manga and he has somebody come over to kind of like assess it and see what the value is.  And like the person is like, you know, you got some super rare stuff in here. Like this is like crazy rare. And it was interesting because like that was kind of my first like insight into  that. mean, like that does imply through  his own work.

01:05:59
that there is a collector market to it. It's just something that's kind of like  literally foreign to me. Yeah.  And I know that like,  I guess like original art  for manga is also one of those like very- Oh, I'm it's crazy. That's the thing.  If I'm just going off, know, anecdotally, you know, it's not something you could find on eBay. I don't think I've had any luck finding it on other websites like your heritage auctions or any of these like auction house or art stores. I don't know if  that's a thing  as popular compared to like

01:06:30
I can, you know, what the, the, the, cover, the original cover art for absolute Batman. Number one sold, you know, from Felix comic art, you know, they sold it for a couple of thousand. It was a little bit more than a couple of thousand. Oh, it was. Okay. Well yeah, I guess like a couple hundreds of thousands, but I don't think that original art is collected or even, uh, outside of like the creators, um, sold or, or made public like that. I think it's like a very rare thing when the original

01:06:58
Manga art is even displayed  at art shows or things like that. once again, another kind of, I know, I guess I'm really curious about the collectability factor of manga and especially when it comes to original art, like what happens to that original art? Who has  all these pages of one piece? it with the collector or the creator or is it with these publishing companies? I'll find out more later. You know, one thing that's interesting to me, like one of the things that's  a pretty well-known thing about

01:07:26
creators of manga is that they're ground down by the work.  is exhausting that they have assistance for a reason. The expectation is that they have to turn these around fast and that they have to keep producing, producing,  I wonder how much, and there's no way for me to know this, but I wonder how much a  manga creator's relationship with their own art is changed by that kind of

01:07:56
constant like churn it puts on you as a human being, you know, because it's like, if something is grinding you down all the time, you might not have such good feelings about it.  I do want to note, absolute Batman number one, the cover art sold for $70,000. Yeah, so  pretty  hefty. It feels like, and correct me I'm wrong here, but it feels like sales data for  manga is a little more easier to obtain. Or at least they've got some sense of like,

01:08:25
how much a volume of One Piece has sold. I feel like I found more articles about One Piece sold this much this year versus trying to get that number from a Marvel or DC or  the direct market. I guess, have you come across that at all? Have you looked at that subject at all in terms of like? Not really. I I think the reason why it's easy to find out how much like a volume of One Piece sold or something like that is because it's selling.  Do you allow cursing?

01:08:55
Absolutely.  I think I've been cursing this whole show. It sold a shitload. so like people are going to talk about it because it's like it sold a lot.  And but I mean, how much did the first volume of Furious Sumi sell? I'm not that's one of my favorites, but I'm not trying to downplay it. But it's like, is that a giant seller? I don't know. Because like, I don't know if the information for like the

01:09:20
360th bestselling manga series is as available as the number one, you know what saying? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so, I mean,  comic sales were available for a long time, but then the distribution market changed and the pandemic hit and all this stuff like that. And it's made it real weird.  And I think that all of them are kind of opaque in ways that are both good and bad.  I think honestly, I've been thinking about this a lot lately, I've been meaning to write something about it.

01:09:50
I think we care too much about sales.  And that's not me saying you're asking a bad question. I just think that sometimes people put too much,  they conflate something selling well with it being good or it's box office being a high, so it's good. Or  if it's box office is bad, it's bad. You know what saying?  And  I honestly, like a lot of people who are like comics journalists,  you know,

01:10:17
They do not like the fact that the data is not out there anymore.  And I used to be kind of obsessed with it, but kind of having the break from it has made me realize that I think it actually like would harm my relationship with comics and it would make  in ways that I can't even really like speak to. But  I just like,  I don't know. I'm kind of, I'm kind of happy not knowing, Bodder. That's fair. And  I definitely co-assign that  sales does not equate.

01:10:47
you know, quality, if you know,  a million sold book, you know, could still disappoint you, you know, based on your own likes. All right, David, did you have, I guess, anything to add to this list of like differences and similarities we've been going through? Am I missing anything?  Not really. I mean, I will say that I do like the blending of like the satisfying chunk of the Tonko bond and individual chapters. While that doesn't seem significantly different from the single issue turning into a trade paperback, it feels different in a various. Exactly what you mean.

01:11:16
It's weird. Yeah, actually I'm really glad you mentioned that because that was something I thought about with this Ultraman series is that it always seems to end where it should. And I can't contextualize why it's just a feeling that they maximize the page count, especially like reading Shonen Jump where they split, you you're only reading it by the chapters. You're not reading like they don't, I think they offer, you could like download or buy a Tonko bond and you won't have to read it in chapters.

01:11:45
I do like that aspect because the way the chapters end always leave me wanting more.  One other thing I do want to note is  I think that the format slash shape is  extremely important to the overall.  I mean, there's a reason why DC Compact Comics  became a big deal. That's one thing that they should learn from. I do think it's really funny that Marvel saw the success of DC Compact Comics.

01:12:10
and saw the success of manga like we're gonna make it more expensive and slightly larger. I'm come on guys, what are we doing here? It's right there. Literally the formula is right there. Just copy paste, copy paste. DC Compact Comics has, I think was like among my favorite things from last year. was buying, if I saw them out in the wild, it's kind of like, well, why not? 10 bucks, I've got 10 bucks, know, and like, why wouldn't I want?

01:12:36
And they're reprinting classics. So the incentive is there. And I'm so happy to see them continue that line. And now they're digging into, I want to say, totally obscure things. they're printing Wii 3 in DC Compact form. They're printing, I think, some Sandman stuff in DC Compact form. Not anymore. Oh, no. But yeah, DC Compact. Yeah, to your point, I think the form factor of manga.

01:13:05
goes a long way to just being able to like, doesn't take up that much space. You know, you can put it in a bag or a backpack and you know, put it away, read it and put it away. It's not like a giant omnibus that takes a lot of real estate. I'm glad that you slandered omnibuses so I don't have to because they're the devil. But no, I mean, if there's something I can say in summation, it's that a manga or comics and a quality or sales does not equal quality and a

01:13:33
They both have their advantages. They both have their disadvantages. But fundamentally, if you can read one, you can read the other. reading more comics  is rarely a bad thing. Damn right. Beautifully said. I'm going to co-sign that. Ladies and gentlemen, this the Short Blacks podcast. And we just finished talking to David Harper about his journey into manga and the things he's learned about the manga industry. If you want more, I'll have links to some awesome long-form articles and an interview he did with the Viz.

01:13:59
media editor that'll be in the show notes. Check those out. I also have links to date. Follow David on social media. Go give them a follow. David, any parting words or shameless plug before we wrap up? What do you got planned for? You mentioned off panel is about to its 10 year anniversary. You anything planned for And 500th episode. I'm over here proud of my 451. I'm trying to catch up to you. What do you got planned in the future? I mean, 451 is still amazing.

01:14:25
The fact that anybody has been doing it for this long is crazy. Sometimes I'm shocked I made it to 50, let alone 500. I do want to say one other thing is one final reminder that neither of us are experts. We're baby people about manga, so I hope you enjoyed us chatting. What do have coming up? Next, I'm recording an episode tomorrow with Klaus Janssen, longtime artist and anchor and doing a career spanning conversation. Got Daniel Warren Johnson coming up, have Katie Pride from Books with Pictures.

01:14:54
I have, like I said, the 500th episode coming up at, you know, let's say 11 weeks and I'm still trying to book my guest and who knows if we're going to get the person I want to get. anyone who's listened to the podcast would probably be able to guess who it is. Oh my God. just I've got an idea. I'll talk to you. It's Jim Lee. Damn right. I literally was just watching. They put out like a hush two trailer and David, can't obviously because we were recording today and I was like, man,

01:15:23
They're doing promo for this hush too. I bet you this might be David's year. So hell yeah, David. look forward to it. No, no, no. I'm not. It hasn't been set yet.  I'm still shooting my shot. I'm manifesting it for you. I've been shooting that shot for so long, Bodder. I mean, it's... I got a lot of gray hair now. And when I started shooting that shot, I didn't have gray hair.  all that matters is that you just got to make it once. That's it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. There you go.  Anyways, who else I got coming up?

01:15:50
James Tynan and Michael Walsh are coming on to talk about exquisite corpses. I'm actually gonna have an entire week of that on my  site where I talk about their rollout and all kinds of other stuff. So yeah, I got, I don't know. mean, here's one of the funny things about my show, and this might surprise you, is like, I do not plan out far in advance at all. Oh, same. I'm usually,  I think I've gotten better at that. I've got like the next month plan.

01:16:14
But  come April, it'll be a mad dash to try to like fill content and, you know, get people booked and stuff. Same way.  Yeah. I mean, it's  I think it's sometimes better to be. Nimble, know.  Nimble. Exactly. It's like I have the opportunity to like plan out further. But  if something really interesting comes up where I'm like, I have to talk about that.  I want to have that flexibility in my back pocket. Yeah, anyways. But yes, and you can find me on the Internet.

01:16:43
doing internet things.  There we go. All right. And really, I want to add to what David said.  If you have any recommendations or corrections, if I said anything wrong or you want to chime into the conversation, would love to hear your thoughts.  Either write me a short email at theseshortbikesjacks.gmail.com or you can now text me  directly. There's a link in the show notes to send some fan mail via text. So I would love to hear your thoughts on this episode, your manga journey, which you're reading and everything. right.  And with that being said, David, you've been fantastic. You've been great.

01:17:12
And I hope to have you back on soon and if I don't talk to you before the big 500. Dude, congratulations man. Thank you. I really appreciate it.

01:17:22
There you have it short box nation. That's the end of the show.  Thank you for hanging out. Thanks for being here. And a special shout out if you made it this far. If you enjoyed this episode and you have some thoughts or comments that you want to share with us, write us at the short box, jacks at gmail.com. And if you really liked this episode,  help us spread the word, share this episode with a friend or someone you know that loves comics as much as we do. And don't forget to leave us a five star rating and review on Apple podcasts or Spotify.

01:17:50
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01:18:17
Speaking of our Patreon community, want to give a big shout out to our current members, including Adam Chittani, RcGamut, BJKicks, Blake Simone,  Blythe Milligan,  Bo Evers, Brian Brumley, Chad Lannenberger, Chris Hacker, David Morales, Greg Lichtig, Hershel, Mack Jacobson,  issue number three Brad,  Jay Center, Jeff Fremid, Jerome Cabanatan, Jose Sepulveda,  Justin McCoy, Corey Torgeson, Matt Godwin, Amanda Maron,

01:18:46
Melissa Burton, Nick Wagner, Ryan Isaacson, Steven Gimmick, T-Mix, The Wait For It Podcast, Tony A. Uppie, Trey Namo, Walter Gant, and last but not least, Warren Evans. Big shout outs to the patrons. And with that being said, that's it. That's what I got for you this time. Thanks for listening. Tune in next week for another episode.  And most importantly, take care of yourselves. Read a good comic and continue to make mine and yours short box. I'll catch you soon. Peace.