Inside the Mind of Zack Kaplan: Masterminds, Kill All Immortals, and the Power of Creator-Owned Comics - The Short Box Podcast Ep. 461

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In this episode of The Short Box.  I'm not really interested in telling someone else's story when I can tell my own. And when I can tell my next Kill All Worlds or something else or Masterminds. I think I'd rather keep doing that.  I fundamentally like stories  that have  consequence and causality to them. I like to look at characters trying to find their way in a world gone mad. Because I think our world is going mad. I've thought that for a decade.

00:27
I just think futurism is rushing at us too fast and we're getting lost in the shuffle and how do we make sense of this? There's a lot of characters that I'm not right for. I  shouldn't be writing Spider-Man.  I don't know that I should be writing Superman. know, like there's certain things I shouldn't be writing.

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intro music plays 

01:11
Yo, Short Box Nation! Hello again, welcome back and thanks for pressing play today.  If you're new, welcome to the show. My name is Badr and this is the Short Box Podcast, the comic book talk show that brings you the best conversations about your favorite comics with the creators that put their blood, sweat and tears into making them. And today we're joined by Zach Kaplan,  the sci-fi comic creator of such comics and graphic novels like Eclipse, Port of Earth, Lost City Explorers, Dark Empty Void.

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in the recent, highly successful Dark Horse comic series from last year, Kill All Immortals.  Zach Kaplan has worked with pretty much every comic publisher under his sun from Image, Top Cow, Dark Horse, Aftershock, and Vault.  And it seems that everywhere he goes, success and critical acclaim seem to follow him.  His first three series have all been optioned for TV adaptations.  You got Port of Earth currently being developed by Robert Kirkman Skybound Entertainment and Amazon TV Studios. And I just learned today that...

02:06
That mindset, his 2023 sci-fi techno thriller, is in development of Don Cheadle's production studio. Now, the reason why that gets me so hype is that Zack is a hometown guy. He's from Jacksonville, Florida. So, you know, my pride is through the roof right now.  I got to interview Al Lettson a couple of weeks ago, hometown hero right there. Now, Zack Kaplan, come on, Jack is doing the damn thing in comic books. Look, Zack is on the podcast today to talk about his life, his career, and the return of Kill All Immortals and his new upcoming comic project.

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Masterminds, which is due out in August through Dark Horse Comics.

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If you like what I do, you're a regular listener, if this show has ever given you any entertainment or joy, consider returning the favor and supporting the show by becoming an official patron of the show at patreon.com slash short box. Or you can show your support with the free option and go the free route and give this show a five star rating and review on whatever podcast app you're listening to. It's a small click for you, but five star ratings would mean the world to me. So thank you in advance.

03:27
Now, without further ado, Short Box Nation, let's welcome comic writer Zach Kaplan to the show. Actually, I should say back to the show, because this is officially his third or fourth time back on. Let's welcome Zach Kaplan.  What up, Zach? Welcome back. Hello, hello. Good to see you, man.  Good to be back. Good to see you. It feels right. I get to brag about  some Jaxx boys doing the damn thing in comic books, making great comic books, and being successful at it. Thank you. Yes. Go Jaxxville.

03:57
Zach, is this, I'm assuming where you're recording from your office? Yeah, I'm in Los Angeles now, yes.  Your background,  for the audio listeners,  check out the video if you want to see Zach's epic background, but  I'm like trying to pay attention to you, but then also like see what books I recognize and everything. You have a killer library, man. There's a ton. You know, I was already a comic reader, but when you start making them, then you just got to read a lot more.  So, yeah.

04:25
I needed a way to hold it all.  several years ago I upgraded the bookshelf and very happy with it. yeah. Do you find it easier to make time to read comics  now versus like when you were like first starting? it's much harder. It's much harder. But there's reading for pleasure's sake, which I do get to do on occasion. But then there's reading for research sake. And I think that I do a lot of reading for research sake. I want to see what else is

04:55
working in any subgenre that I work with  or just trying to,  there's a particular comic creator and they do something particularly well and I'm trying to emulate it or find my own style in that.  I'll dive into their work. So  yeah, it helps to kind of be able to go, ah, let me slide this one off. Let me slide that one off. Let me take a look at this.  I want to do some more double page spreads in this series. Let me study double page spreads. Let me study this. So yeah.

05:23
But in terms of like just enjoying comics,  there's a lot going on. So I do get to read, but not as much as I'd like to, for sure. I bet. say the same thing about like podcasting is  prior to  doing a podcast, I used to listen to podcasts. Like that was like my main, you know, audio consumption, whether it was like Fat Man on Batman or Juan F or  some other podcasts. Now, as someone that like spends close to 15, 20 hours a week working on the podcast.

05:50
I'm like very picky about which ones I listen to and you know, just finding time to like actually like turn my brain off from a, you know, editor standpoint, which is maybe the toughest part is like trying to just enjoy a show without being like, oh, I really like the way they did that transition there. Oh, that's  don't even know if I can. Can you even turn your brain off?  I can't help but have a study component to like, even if I pick up something new, even if I'm excited to read something new, I can't help but  analyzing and thinking about the form or the craft like.

06:19
If I lose myself in something, then I know it's doing it. And I do lose myself in a few comics still, but it's doing a damn good job if I lose myself in it. Because a lot of times I'm just,  I'm assuming it's the same way, but when you're in something so much, it's hard to go back and just enjoy it. I guess what comes to mind when you think about the last comic or book or whatever it may be that  gave you that feeling of like,  from both an enjoyment standpoint and a technical...

06:46
you know, professional rider standpoint, this is hitting on all cylinders. That I just, that I lost myself in or that I like peeked out on? Cause I feel like they're different. Or either or. It's a good question. mean, geeking out their, um, PornSec,  uh, and, I want to say Jesse  Lagerman. Yeah. Lonergan.  Uh, their man's best was, uh, was pretty, was pretty, uh, inventive.

07:15
Oh, and then Dennis Camp's new Martian Manhunter. That was pretty inventive and pretty  like, you know, damn, the form at its highest level. like, those are a couple of books that I geeked out on. terms of like, but I wasn't losing myself. was like,  joyfully  absorbing the craft at a high level. In terms of like losing myself, like.

07:43
It's been a while.  I'd have to get back to you on that one. Let me ask you this. Do you remember the last time that you were on the podcast at all? And it's okay if not. I mean, it's a lot of years. Pre-pandemic, I think. Was it pre-pandemic? Super pre-pandemic. So if I'm to go in order of your  short box appearances, your first appearance was  way back in 2016 for episode 150. You were a  guest at the Hall of Heroes convention.

08:10
Yeah. And we happened to, and this is actually one of my favorite stories when I come, when I think of you, I always think of this story.  You were a guest at the Hall of Heroes convention  and which was like its first year. like up and coming. I don't know if it's still around, if I'm quite honest, but it was like the first of its kind of thing for Jax. You were a guest there  and we met at Hall of Heroes with my co-says are and we're like, Hey man, we'd love to introduce you. I want to say Eclipse had just come out.  And you were like, Hey, I can actually record an in-person interview.

08:39
I think it was like a Sunday. were like, I'm flying out Monday or something like that. I can come before my flight. And you came with your mom. think she was like driving to the airport and your mom sat in. Oh, she was probably driving me to the airport. So I was probably, yeah, my ride. Yeah. But she sat in, you know, this was like my small one bedroom, you know, apartment. She sat on the couch and I remember her just being so prideful. I think she took pictures. think she like, I want to say she went to like some of the shops at the time was telling them all about the eclipse.

09:09
Of course. thinking like, man, that is, you know, that's exactly what my mom would do.  What's your mom think about your career now considering it's been, you know, going on damn near nine years and you've had so much success since then? Both my folks have been very supportive and,  you know, very happy for me and, you know, they're, yeah,  it's hard to. Do they have a favorite? Do they have a favorite series of yours? I don't think so. I don't think so. They're always rooting me on and they're always, you know,

09:38
listening to whatever war story I'm currently telling or currently in the middle of. yeah, mean, the comics business is a hustle. It's a grind. I've been very grateful for the success that I've had, but it's a grind. They're on the inside with me. get to hear about the grind. The thing is,

10:07
I went to film school, I went to USC, I got my master's in screenwriting. I came out for a decade, I was doing all sorts of  things in the film and TV industry trying to make it in that business. And I never got  anything made, but I had a whole lot of things in development, a whole lot of work. And it was only by kind of serendipity that I fell into comics. I had always wanted to do one, I got the chance to do one,  and I dove all in. I don't think they really knew what I was doing. I mean, when I...

10:36
was even doing Eclipse when I was even there. It was cool because I had never been interviewed, you know, until Eclipse came out. And it's like, oh, wow, I have something in store. So it was cool. And it was, you know, they were very proud, but I don't think they could conceive of where I was going with the whole thing. You know,  you know, I didn't know where I was going with the whole thing. So I'm sure they couldn't conceive of it. So  it's a, it's an interesting biz for sure. For sure. Well, like tell your mom I said hello.

11:05
She'll get a kick out of that. She'll probably remember. I don't think she sat in on too many of my interviews. I think about that story a lot. So Ari, that was your first appearance and then you came back on the pod  in 2017. It was like episode 186. Oh,  one year later. Yeah. Well, you were there promoting the first issue of Poor to Earth. Eclipse, think at the time, had just got extended to eight issues. Little did we know, or at least I knew, that it would go on to 16 issues. Yeah. But  I was actually listening to that second

11:34
episode this morning on my way  to the barbershop. And  you seem to be like finding your footing, especially like in your voice as a new writer. I mean, I know a lot has probably transpired. I mean, we could just  go to 2020 in the COVID years.  how is your outlook on your career? Like, how do you feel about your career now and like how the industry has changed since then? Like, do you still feel like the new guy? Do you feel like you're figuring now or do you feel like, hey, I've kind of got a grasp on this? There's like 20 questions in there.

12:04
I've had an interesting career, I think. I think it's a little unique, because I really haven't done any big two or any licensed work. And I think that's pretty rare for a writer to go,  I'm coming up, I'm in my ninth year. I've had  Masterminds, I think is going to be my 13th book. So  I've had quite a run of creator-owned books, and  they continue to be successful.  And I continue, and I've got  several more.

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in the works for next year. I'm off to the races, but  it's interesting. It's interesting to me  to be in this niche. mean, I've been also very successful with film and TV adaptation opportunities.  So I don't think I'm finding my footing anymore. And I think back to like when Port of Earth came out, I'd only worked with one publisher. I'd only worked with two artists.  And so the concept of like,

13:04
know, communicating and marketing to retailers. I was still kind of trying to learn the basics there. Social media. I don't even think I totally knew how to use social media back then. I feel like I had not been into social media until I became a comic creator. And then I was like, oh, I got to use how do I use Twitter? How do I do these things? So I mean, there was just so much so much that I learned. But I think most of all, it was like

13:29
learning how to try to tell the best story I possibly could. I I think that like every series I've done, I've tried to push myself as a storyteller, tried to use the comic form a lot more. I think in the beginning, like Eclipse and Port of Earth, I was trying to paint really cool worlds, really cool character dilemmas, and really cool like,  know,  thrilling stories. But, you know, as I got going with books like Mindset or Beyond Real  or even Breakout,

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And then certainly  now at  Kill Home Rules and some of this, really trying to play with the form a lot more. How  can I deconstruct a  layout? How can I better understand the nature of  episodic storytelling and how to really hook people in with fantastic cliffhangers and  make issues stand on their own even more? So  I think it's been a learning curve across the board for me. And I'm continuing to try to learn and  improve, but I'm happy with.

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I'm happy with the stories that I'm telling now and I'm excited to get the response that I'm getting.  God, the industry is always changing. It's always going through  ups and downs and I'm not sure where we're at now.  There's part up, part down. As a comic creator, you have to adapt. to find the ways to work around  some things. You got to be resilient.  Nine years in the comic industry has made me crazy resilient. When you're working on, I mean, I'm working on

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you know, easily six, eight books at a time, you know, different phases, something I'm marketing, something I'm just pitching, something I'm just starting with an artist. So just like constant fires, constant things going wrong, constant things you got to deal with. And I think when I was first getting started, it was just not an experience that I had. Now it's just business as usual.  It's like, let's go. Yeah, it's okay. Let's handle it. So.

15:18
Yeah, you put in the reps, dude.  got to say your bibliography is stacked. And I guess when you break it down like that, nine years in, you you're coming up on your 13th title and it feels like, I mean, you're putting out quality stuff. not just like, you know, 13, 13 titles and maybe five or like, you know, Luke warm. It's been like back to back, you know, hitters, you know, and I'm hearing this from like other people, my, you know, my comic shop guide, the people in the shop, other fellow comic podcasters.

15:45
When you think about the 13  titles and comics that you put out, I guess at what point do you feel like it just clicked?  What was the easiest one for you to write because you just felt like, OK, I've got the experience. I know what I'm doing. This is now. I'm not going to say autopilot, but I  got it.  Kill All Immortals felt really good. Kill All Immortals felt really good.  When the pandemic hit, I had had a bunch of things fall through.

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and I had to kind of rebuild my plans. And so I came out with four new books in 22 and one more in 23. And that was Breakout at Dark Horse, Metal Society at Image Top Cow, Forever Forward with Scout, Mindset was Vault, and then Beyond Real was Vault. I think like that was me, that was my kind of like sophomore, junior experience in terms of like I had cut my teeth on some books in the past, but then that was me kind of coming out kind of

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trying to do a lot of things. So I think  after that and then going, okay, what's next? I felt really tuned in. And so I think by the time I  got into Kill All Immortals,  yeah,  and then I think everything that I've had coming out now, Midnight Shadows, which was a dark horse book, Dark Empty Void with Mad Cave and that mastermind is coming out. I feel very dialed in in terms of like,

17:15
my ability to understand the scope that I have in a mini series or the scope I have in an arc and the scope I have in an issue and how to elevate the story and how to... And it was interesting. mean, like, seeing Kill All Immortals really hit, it was my first real action hero. Everything I had done had been like science fiction or like different worlds or it was a guy in a sci-fi world, but this was the first like...

17:43
Here's a character who's an action hero who kicks ass, which is  a  staple in comics. It's kind of the primary go-to. The big two are built on action heroes, and it feels like some of the biggest books  that come off of that, if they're not IP, you look at something like Invincible. You look at something like,  God, looking at  my bookshelf. I where are the others? Lazarus, you know?

18:12
I mean, there are just some,  oh, well, like Hellboy, something like that, you know, which was an original creation. Like,  action heroes,  oh, Erica Slaughter. You know, they're a staple. And so this was my first real try at that, and  I feel really good about it. It's been a really great response. It was a  big hit for us, and now we've been promoted to be ongoing.  so, yeah, I think that was kind of something I wouldn't have thought about doing several years ago, because  if you're going to do it, you got to do it right.

18:42
But it's felt really good to do it the way we've done it I'm glad you said kill all immortals was like the one that you felt really confident and You were kind enough to send me some preview copies of the first arc and I won't lie is that I was like I don't know if I'm gonna be able to finish all of this before our interview I'm trying to read this midnight. Like I this whole week I have been trying to catch up on Everything that I've missed out on so I was reading like the midnight shadows I was reading a dark empty void and then you throw this on my lap. I'm like, okay I guess I'll pivot and see how far I get

19:10
I almost damn near killed it like last night,  but I actually finished the last issue  this afternoon.  Hearing you say this was like the one that felt good, was you sipping outside your comfort zone, it comes across in the work, man. It feels effortless, it feels like a little more lean, like you know how much dialogue to give,  how much to let the art breathe. The art looks fucking incredible. Speak-o. Speak-o, Osio. Osio, yeah.

19:38
who's a killer artist and really just has a knack for everything going on, everything from the action to the grounded character work and kind of this unique world,  he's  killer. And Thiago Rocha is the  colorist who's a relatively new voice, but  absolutely killer. And then of course, Hassan Atsmeen El-Haou is the Eiserwinning letter. So yeah.

20:03
You've assembled a pretty damn  good team and  I do see some like consistent creators  on a lot of the work. One of them being Hassan who is like one of the best letters in the game. mean, anytime I see his name on a book, I'm probably going to pick it up because I like his lettering that much.  What is it like working with Hassan? How did you guys get connected? He's brilliant. He's brilliant. He's  so good.  I mean, I got him back on Join the Future, which was in 2010.

20:33
That's right. 2019,  where he was, he was still great, but not the secret was not out. Now the secret's out and everybody's aware.  But I was like, true. This guy's this guy's great.  So I've been I've been working with his on for about six years. He's done roughly half my books. He's absolutely killer. I try to go to him as much as I can. I mean, I've worked with some other great  letters to Justin Birch and DC Hopkins.  But yeah, Hassan.

21:02
is worthy of the Eisner when he's just so creative with the way he uses letters on the page. want to say on Kill All Immortals because I think  if anyone is  looking for a fresh new series, I definitely want to push that the first trade is out, issues one through five are collected. Yeah.  And I love this little byline when it comes to the solicitation. Succession meets John Wick with Immortal Vikings. I would also say that if you're a fan of like

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The Highlander  or The Old Guard or what was that Vin Diesel movie? The Last Witch Hunter or something like that. I think you will absolutely love Kill All Mortals. mean, the art is awesome. The concept is great. But Zach, I want to hear from you. Like how would you sell Kill All Mortals for someone that's like, okay, I'm interested. You guys are hyping it up. What is it about? Yeah. I mean,  it's John Wick with Vikings, but it's an immortal family. It's a family of Vikings.

21:57
who have discovered  a secret, we don't know how, but they've become immortal. And now a thousand years later, they're this massively powerful, barbaric and murderous billionaire empire. And the only daughter after a millennia finally wants out. And to get out, she's gotta fight her way through her family. And in the process, she's gonna try to uncover their secrets to use as leverage. So it is very much a  power drama of this.

22:26
very dynamic family and our  main heroine, Frey Asvault,  is trying to fight her way out. we really tried to, you we looked at Erica Slaughter a lot and we kind of said, okay, let's, she's not Erica Slaughter, but she's an action heroine that we're hoping can rise to the ranks of that comparison. And she's got a very complex story because on the one hand, she comes from this  extraordinary family and she really just kind of wants to be

22:56
a regular young woman. doesn't want to be confined. She doesn't want to be  forced into this barbaric lifestyle. And she kind of wants her independence. But  what will it take to get that? How brutal will she have to become? And will she even be able to retain her own identity  in that process?  it's a really fun kind of exploration of her character. And then, of course, we're looking at immortality.

23:24
as a metaphor for the billionaire class. So one thing I like to do with all my books is kind of say like, okay, let me find a  very specific device like mind control or time travel or simulation theory. And then let me think about the modern way to explore that. And so with immortality is like, okay, what's my immortality story  and how does it pertain to what's going on in the world today? And when I look around and go, well, do we have immortality in the world today?

23:52
I say, we do. If you're a billionaire, then  your name never dies. You and your family live forever and you get to do whatever you want to do like a God. So yeah, we do have the immortals  and  they decide the fate of our world and they kind of just live in the shadows. And we all kind of know that. We all kind of know that there's like a couple thousand people who are billionaires in the world that have so much power and influence that they are.

24:19
like gods and we are like mere mortals and we just kind of accept that that's like, that's just the way it is like, oh, yeah, yeah, like, well, no, we're not talking million years. We're talking like billion years like they're, yeah, like, yeah, they're just that powerful. Like they're that untouchable,  where they could probably kill someone. And you know, like, we would never know, we would never find out it would be totally, they would totally, you know, get away with it be totally okay. So

24:48
And this is not politics, it's just the nature of all the world.  Yeah,  it's like that. And then we just thought, well, what cool family,  what's the coolest way to look at a family of immortals living present day? And what captures that barbaric,  insatiable nature the best? And it was like, oh, Vikings,  that's Vikings.  So let's just make a family of immortal Vikings. And we've had a ton of fun.

25:18
So like it's a really compelling character story and it's  got some timely themes to explore. But also at the end of the day, it is just an action book that just kicks ass and  every issue we try to raise the bar with the action sequences  and just continue to like wow people with how crazy we can get.  yeah, it's been a ton of fun. Yeah, and I want to underline just how much.

25:42
ass is kicked in this series.  It's bloody. Yeah. Oh, super bloody. Yeah, yeah. It's definitely out there.  It's definitely draw. I can see the John Wick comparison big time. But it's awesome to know too that,  you know, aside from this being like kind of a new direction that you're going and just like a new, you know,  something that you're trying, something new that you're trying out. The reception too has been great. I mean, you told me that not only has it sold out, they're reprinting it, you know, it's getting a lot of reprints.

26:08
It's been promoted to ongoing and then I want to say it might be one of the few Dark Horse series from last year to late. I think so.  I don't think there were many Dark Horse series that got promoted to be ongoing. I feel like it's one of the only ones of last year.  don't hold me to it. There be one or two others. But  it was one of Dark Horse's best books last year. yeah,  we did a big did a big printing. It sold out. We went back and did a reprinting and it's just held its

26:38
It's held its fan base and its interests and now the trades been out just for a couple of weeks. It's been doing great. and yeah, we're really excited for the chance to tell more of the story of this family of immortal Vikings. So we'll be coming back with another chapter, another arc of the series later, probably very into summer, early fall. So we're really excited. How far ahead do you plan for stories? Like I guess in this case for Kill All Immortals, did you have more than five issues planned?

27:08
I guess like do extensions like that ever catch you by surprise or are you always like kind of prepared? So I learned my lesson, I think.  I mean like I learned the exact, I feel like I cut my teeth on Eclipse and Port of Earth and I learned the exact way to do this.  And I'm very proud of Eclipse and Port of Earth but I was definitely finding my way through the transitions of ongoing from mini series to two arcs to three arcs to like.

27:36
So it required a lot more work and now I'm able to do more of that work at the onset. And so, yeah, I do think at the onset, okay, this is the mini series. This is the first arc, I mean,  but then where is this going and how am I setting up for that? And so we definitely tried to set it up so that it could stand on its own, but we had always thought, I mean, I had not taken on a series

28:05
since Port of Earth that I thought had legs to be an ongoing until Kill All Mortals. Everything that I've done prior to this, I knew it was a mini-series from the very get-go, and there was really no...  I mean, during the future, I might have taken  more if there had been a reaction, but really everything else I did was really contained a mini-series. But Kill All Mortals, I felt like being this action heroine and having this family dynamic and just seeing the...

28:35
the breadth of the world that we could explore.  From the onset, we said, okay, here's the first chapter of this.  But if anyone's read it,  there's a giant cliffhanger at the end of  the first arc that tells you exactly where the series is gonna go next. And I  won't say anymore, but  we definitely knew where it was going. And I mean, at this point, I'm definitely thinking out a couple arcs about where it can go. But I think what makes it  easier

29:05
to do is not just thinking about what challenges she faces or what the conflicts are that are to come, but thinking about her character and kind of where is she ultimately heading and kind of what's the story,  what's that longer story of seeing her change and evolve. I don't like stories, if it's gonna be long form and it's gonna be a story that kind of goes on, I really wanna see a character kind of change and evolve and get tested. I don't like to see

29:35
something where it's just the same over and over again. So, you know, that's for me, the most fun is to write a character that by the end of it, you go, wow, look at who she's become. a complete, what an amazing journey. What an emotionally thrilling journey to watch. On that topic, think character evolution is something that I think we see a more and create our own stories, mini series, you know, things that have like kind of a definite end. don't see that. I think we see that a lot. We do see that in the big two and like some of these huge superhero properties.

30:05
But you know, it's always going back to like status quo. so that being said, I think character evolution is refreshing when we do get it. And in a comic book, you you brought up invincible. And I think that's one of my favorite parts about it is that, you know, Kirkman and team had that end goal in mind. So we really got to see a lot of the character evolutions like stick because it is like, hey, this is coming to an end. it's natural that the character is evolving and he's reacting to the things that, you know, these big moments that he's going through and.

30:34
Yeah, and I'm excited to see how Frey  evolves  in the next series. Zach, I want to ask though, what is your favorite part about the comic making process and what's your least favorite part? I think my favorite part is definitely the collaboration with the artists. You send in a script and then they bring it back. Every comic creator is different and I think there are some comic creators that just send in the script and they're done.  I really aspire to try to find the best page possible.

31:03
I'm really engaged with the artists and I work best with artists who are engaged with me. so collaborating on layouts and collaborating on these moments and then just seeing it come to life, collaborating on colors, know, a scene comes in and say, can we make this more noir? Can we make this darker? This character is feeling really down or on edge. Can we make this more claustrophobic? And then giving them direction and not,

31:32
letting them bring their own talents to a moment. That's the best. It's just the best. And seeing artwork in inbox is the best. Seeing it all come together,  covers, working with cover artists on great covers, that's all the best. mean, in terms of the...  I think just the multitasking is a real grind.  I mean, I don't know that people realize  as a comic creator,

32:02
Uh, you're doing everything from,  you know, um, marketing and paying and,  know, there's just a ton of stuff to do that's not creative. And,  I love the creative stuff. I, I'm, I'm a very business minded person and I, and I do the business stuff very well. Looking at contracts,  everything else that goes through it all, but like,

32:28
That stuff is not the fun stuff. The fun stuff's making a great story. On that topic, I was going through your Instagram. I'm just looking for anything that might speak, that might make for a good question. really what I got out of it was, man, this dude is always doing book signings. This guy travels a lot and he's always doing book signings. Meet the authors. I try. I mean, it kind of goes back to the first time we met, that Hall of Heroes convention. I imagine by now you probably have a couple hundred.

32:58
you know,  convention appearances or signings underneath your belt. Is there any one particular or however many come to mind? Is there any one, I guess, like memory, convention memory that comes to mind that really sticks out to you? Maybe it was like an interaction with a fan or meeting one of your favorite creators at a convention or having an interaction. Well, I'll tell you one thing that I tabled next to Chris Claremont, which was a trip because  I just got to hear him tell X-Men stories.

33:28
for the whole weekend. I was like right next to him, like there he is. And I  mean, I couldn't help when I was, you know, I couldn't help but just listen to those stories. So that was pretty awesome to get to listen to  two or three days of  Chris Claremont stories. I mean, as far as the fan goes, I think it was New York Comic-Con.  Probably my first New York Comic-Con was  maybe 2017.

33:54
And now my last one, I just did it in 24. So I've been doing it with like seven,  seven or eight years.  My first one there was, think, had to be like an 11 year old kid or 12 year old kid,  a boy. He came up and picked up one of my comics. It was probably Eclipse. Next year,  he was with his mom and his family. Next year he came, he's now he's 13 or whatever, picked up another one. Next year he came, he picked up another one.

34:22
Next year he come every year he come and find me and pick up another one here. I'm watching him get older and older. Just this last year, his mom comes. He's not, he's not with her. He's in college, but he sends her, he sends her. She's got a list  of what he needs to pick up from my table. I mean, that's special. That is awesome. Wow. Yeah. You, I don't know how you bottle that up. Like that's just, that's just crazy to be able to connect with a

34:48
a fan, a reader like that who is so into your work that they come back and pretty much read everything you write and again and again. And I watch them grow up as a reader of my work. I don't know, that's pretty special. That's pretty cool. That was a pretty cool one. No, that's awesome. And I think I'm going use that as a setup to transition into one of my favorite parts of doing any creator interviews and that's the ability to bridge the gap between

35:15
between you, who puts their blood, sweat and tears into making said comic with someone that puts equal blood, sweat and tears into selling comics. And he's also maybe one of your biggest fans out there. He's not a college kid. He's a lot older than a college  age. It's Ben Kingsbury. He's the owner of my favorite comic shop, the sponsor of this year's show,  Gotham City Limit. He was very ecstatic knowing that we were able to get this set up and he sent in the question. So I'm going play it for you. Hey Zach, Ben K representing Gotham City Limit in Sonny Jacksonville, Florida.

35:44
Thanks so much for taking some time to be here. Well, if anybody comes to Gotham City Limit, they've probably been recommended a Zac Kaplan title at one point or another, especially from me. I mean, you're more recent metal society, the little mini series, robots and humans and fist fights is an easy sell and kill all the mortals. Man, that had some twists and turns that I was not expecting. However,

36:10
One of my top 10 favorite stories of all time to this day is still Port of Earth. I think at one point I heard that maybe there was a TV show in production. Fingers crossed. Is there any truth to that? And then also, do you have any plans ever to revisit that Port of Earth universe? Well, I'll leave you here to answer. Thanks so much for making amazing comics. We literally couldn't do it without you. And remember, short box nation, we'll always take it to the limit.

36:40
Well, yeah, that's great. Thank you, Ben. Thank you very much. And if I'm in town next time I'm in town, I will absolutely try to stop by. Oh, you got to man. Yeah, come through. I would.  Yeah. Port of Earth got picked up right out of the gate.  It got picked up by Robert Kirkman,  who's a creator and producer on Walking Dead and Invincible. And it got picked up by Amazon. And it's been kicking for a long time in  TV development. And  and we paused it because

37:10
We were gonna do more and I would still like to do more, but we paused it because I was basically looking at a choice and I tell this story because  I get asked this all the time.  And  I had to decide basically if I was gonna do one more or if I was gonna do a bunch more of Port of Earth. They were like, can  do one more, maybe two more, or if it goes. Wait, issues or arcs?  Arcs, one or two more. It was like, you could do one more arc, maybe one or two more arcs, but.

37:39
That was all that was really on the table based on where it was at  in the sales and stuff.  I wasn't really going to be able to take it much further. But if it went, if it became a TV show, I was going be able to take it much further. And that was the story that I kind of had an interest in maybe going a little further with it.  It's such a slow burn. And so I really wasn't sure that I wanted to just do one more and be done with it.  So we paused it,  Andrea, Moody and I, paused it.

38:09
and talked how we paused it and went to see how the TV development play out.  And that is still playing out and time will tell.  so, but  I have been getting the itch.  So I don't know if we'll wait forever.  We might get back to it.  We haven't dove in just yet, but I don't think it will be too much longer. And I think, you know, in the next five years or so, I would absolutely love to  do more of that, however I can.

38:39
So just trying to figure it out  about how much  we would take on. That is probably the only title that I've done that I would like to do more of. Does it ever surprise you  just how  the fandom for that series?  We're talking about you're about to release your 13th comic. You've been in comics for nine years.  And I say this fully respectfully.

39:03
You've released so much and it like, feel like I could, I've seen you get better and better and better. Like, Kill All Mortals is like, it was top tier. So I'm looking forward to see what you do with Masterminds. I guess, is it ever surprising to be like, damn, I really came out the gate with like, you know, this great idea that had Robert Kirkman sign on that's got, you know, like people still bring it up. I guess, is it ever that surprising to be like, damn, my first word? It's surreal. I mean, yeah. Well, Eclipse got picked up too right out of the gate. So, and then Lost to the Explorers got picked up. It was surreal.

39:33
You know, the thing I've learned, things get  optioned and picked up by movie studios or TV studios for development, you know? But in terms of how they get developed or when they get developed or if they get developed, that is a different road.  And I have yet to have a show made. I have several in development. Knock on wood,  I'm optimistic that it will happen one day. There's a lot of craziness that goes on in the kitchen and  development is,  you know, it's an up and down road.

40:02
And I think Hollywood would go through so many strikes.  They get  economic concerns that hit them hard. There's all sorts of crazy things that go on in this town. so it's super exciting. And I think that back in the day, it was super exciting.  I try to be a little more. Cautiously optimistic? No,  more like  realistic.  More realistic.

40:32
Yeah, it's like it's exciting when a project gets optioned and picked up for development. But, you know, it's a whole nother it's a whole nother road and a whole nother process. So  I hope that I hope that one goes. I hope that many go.  I'm optimistic that it will happen one day, but I'm not sure which one. Everyone hears the news drop. then like, you know, back back in here,  back on the it's it's a different thing. So it would be really fun for that to happen. But I don't focus on that.

41:01
I'm focused on trying to make great comics.  focused on trying to elevate my game and have the next comic. Hearing  that Ben is recommending my books and making everybody who comes into Gotham read my books,  that's awesome. That's what I'm trying to do. I'm trying to make books that are undeniable like you have to read this. I'm trying to  continue to make  original stories. I think that's the cool part is that you haven't let...

41:27
you know, this fame like gets to your head, you know, you're not letting like, oh, you know, I'm the guy that's got, you know, his comic was his option for this Don Cheadle's, you know, pick this up. Like  it, I think it shows in the work and the output that it seems for you. It's like, okay, this was great. Let's not rest on our laurels. Let's, know, come back with another, like, you know, another banger, another, like, you know, let me, like you said, let me up my game. I guess it's interesting to meet Zach Kaplan fans because I like hearing what's their favorite.

41:56
You know, like  I would tell you, think Kill All Mortals is probably my favorite. The Midnight, I need to finish the Midnight Shadow before I say it, but I feel like this might be one of my favorites of yours as well.  You know, to hear like Ben say that, you know, Metal Society, you know, it's kind of like, well, what's your favorite? It's like almost asking someone like, hey, what's your favorite Tarantino movie? Right? Like a lot can be, you can gleam a lot from someone's favorite like Tarantino movie. You know, which one's your favorite? Well, they're all very different. I mean, I'm very...

42:23
I do different, like it's ironic because it's all sci-fi, but like join the future sci-fi Western mindset, like grounded sci-fi thriller, totally different, totally different energies. Like one's  small, one's big, know, like they're, the Port of Earth, Kill All Mortals, totally different. So, I mean, Kill All Mortals is as  character led as I feel like I've done,  like just boom. And Port of Earth was like,

42:50
the opposite. Like we did this fun thing where like you're following everything almost like you're watching it unfold on the news. You know, like it was like we had news interviews and everything's told kind of like found footage style, like you're following those characters. And so  it was it was distancing, but,  you know, interesting in a very different way. So I'm constantly trying different things. So I can understand why people go, which one's your favorite or I like this one. This is like when I'm at a convention and people come up and they're like,

43:20
What should I read? I'm like, what do you like?  I love all my children. They're all different.  I don't have any favorites. I'm  trying to like, Kill All Morals was my first return to ongoing.  And  there's a couple ideas that I have kicking that might be  more ongoings to come.  I'm interested  in balancing it out, not just having all miniseries and trying to, yeah.

43:48
I mean, following the footsteps of Kirkman  in the sense of telling a story like Invincible, I don't know that I'll go 100 issues or 150 issues with anything,  but telling stories that go on a little longer and give readers a little bit more of something to explore and enjoy. That's awesome. I mean, you mentioned it. I think what keeps your comics fresh is that, they might, you could probably put them, you definitely probably put them underneath the sci-fi umbrella.

44:15
But it's like different flavors. mean,  and the range of topics and stories you've tackled. mean, I think there's a reason why you're advertised as like the hard sci-fi comic guy. Your stories have ranged in topics from black holes, alien encounters, environmental destruction, lost cities, secret societies, simulation theory, and like all these other awesome sci-fi topics. This is probably a weird question, but  do you read a lot of or consume a lot of science fiction, like literature or media? Like, do you read  scientific journals or?

44:45
You follow professors or lectures? It's all 30 second reels now.  know, it's all  Neil deGrasse Tyson  giving me my or Michio Kaku giving me my 30 seconds as I doom scroll. yeah,  I am the algorithms know that I like all things futuristic and science fiction. And I like to know what's  going on, you know, with quantum physics. And I like to know what's going on with robots. And I like to know what's going on with anything, you know.

45:14
plastics in our  in our brain and you know the garbage Island is floating somewhere in the Pacific that you know, I like all that stuff so I'm fascinated by our ever-changing world and I'm fascinating about which way we're going and if we're gonna survive at all,  so yeah  Well said all right. want to um I want to shift gears and talk about the new series coming out later this August is called masterminds it finds you

45:44
Teaming up once again with  Stephen Thompson, is the artist in the Midnight Shadows.  Let me take a pause  right  there. What  brought you back with Stephen Thompson on Masterminds? And I guess what can we expect from Masterminds? What's the elevator pitch? Yeah, the elevator pitch for Masterminds  is there's a real thing called a mastermind circle. It's a secret group of very powerful individuals who agree to work together by any means necessary.

46:14
to make sure that everybody  in the group succeeds.  This is about the smartest mastermind circle, a secret society  called Masterminds.  And  they're inviting everybody  to come join and see if they can, if they're smart enough to  become a mastermind to join this society. And it's a very much like a noir thriller about a young man that  finds himself  auditioning and initiating  to see if he can make it through a series of

46:43
of  games and challenges.  It's a very modern exploration of secret societies  and very much, think,  leaning into just the cutthroat nature  that we seem to, I think there's certain norms in society that have shifted and evolved and hard work  and good ethics don't seem to be enough anymore. Everyone's rolling up their sleeves and willing to throw some elbows to get ahead in the world.

47:13
And so this is kind of  exploring some of those things that have gone on in society. Like, what are you willing to do to  succeed?  We're having a lot of fun with kind of the meta exploration of  letting readers see if they can follow some pretty fun, know, clever challenges and riddles and things as they  read Masterminds. And we'll be sharing a few of those, think, probably as we talk about the book  before it comes out. I had just...

47:42
such a great experience with Steven and  Thiago on Thiago Roca, who's the same colorist as Kill All Mortals, but he did the Midnight Shadows with us.  We just had such a great synergy.  I think Steven and I really  love a certain cinematic storytelling in comics, finding a way to use the comics form, but in a really cinematic way.  We just clicked.

48:12
I have not worked with too many artists for a second time over. In fact, I think Steven might be the first artist that I've come back to work with for a second time, at least announced. But yeah, we just, I knew in the middle of the midnight, I was like, we're doing another book after this. Also because the Midnight was a collaboration with one of the largest synth wave bands in the world, The Midnight.

48:39
which was an amazing experience. I was a diehard fan of The Midnight before we even did that book.  But I knew that we needed to do something after that that was purely 100 % creator-owned.  So that is Masterminds. We're really excited about it. going to be... It's an interesting thing because it's  a noir thriller adventure, I'm not...  When  Dark Horse always asks you when you're prepping a book, what are the comparisons?

49:09
What's it like? And I had a hard time answering this question of what it was going to be like  in terms of other things,  other comics that have come out because it's not horror, although it's  got a horrific nature to it. But it's kind of very David Fincher-esque.  So I think if you love David Fincher films, if you love things like  Fight Club or  Seven or The Game or  Social Network, any of these kinds of

49:38
things like you'll love this book.  we were hard pressed to kind of find where it fits  on the comic shelf, but we're really excited about it. It's going to be such a trip.  I got my count correct, I think this would either be the third or fourth book you're putting out through Dark Horse. Kill All Mortals looked like was the last one. I want to say there was another one. Breakout. did Breakout was my first.

50:00
And then the midnight shadows kill all mortals. And now this is the fourth one. OK, so fourth time. So it sounds like you found a good home in partnership with Dark Horse. guess what is it specifically about working with Dark Horse? It sounds like the editorial trusts your vision and sees that. What is it like working with the team at Dark Horse?  Ride or die for me for Dark Horse. I've had such a great experience with them.  Editorial, Spencer Cushing has been just absolutely phenomenal.  Kara O'Neil is the

50:28
the marketing over there. I mean, I  collaborated  with Dark Horse Entertainment on a project. just love  Dark Horse.  It's been great to me across the board. I think different people get along with different publishers in different ways.  Different creators are looking for different things.  I just work really well with everybody at Dark Horse and I found  a real niche there and I'm excited to keep doing books there.

50:57
It's not any one thing in particular. It's just,  I've just enjoyed working with the people that I've teamed up with there. I've definitely heard that  sentiment echoed by other creators. That's cool to hear. Zach, do you have any interest? I  feel like I know the answer, but what's the interest level for writing for one of the big two? Because I think what's a  cool brag about your career aside from being a  fellow Jax guy is that I can say,

51:25
He is one of the most successful, you know,  comic writers. He's, you know, the  hard sci-fi comic book guy and he's doing it all, you know, creator owned. I think that is a really impressive feat and I don't think I had really like thought about that.  I mean, to your credit, you know, you haven't really dived into the big two or done any like, you know, big things with them. Do you have any interest in doing big two stuff? And if you could write any character or series from Marvel or DC, I guess what would it be? I don't know.

51:53
You know, a couple of years ago I would have said, yeah, I'm ready, put me in.  And I  was.  But I don't know. I mean, I think both Marvel and DC have things that they have done really well.  And I'm excited to see that they've given some creators  some real creative freedom. And there have been some amazing results.  But I've also seen moments,  the other side, where there are creators that come in who don't get the creative freedom.

52:21
who get put on the wrong book because  the person they're working with doesn't care and they're just throwing them in the machine. And I'm not interested in that.  I'm not interested in being thrown into the machine. I'm interested in being  championed and I'm interested in,  if I was to do it,  to do the right project for me and the right thing for me.  I've heard mixed things  from experiences. So I'm cautious. So  I don't say never.

52:51
I'd definitely be open to it, but it'd have to be the right editor and it'd have to be the right project and it'd have to be an interest in the stories that I'm telling.  Because I'm not really interested in telling someone else's story  when I can tell my own. And when I can tell more Kill All Mortals or something,  the next, My Next Kill All Mortals or something else or Masterminds.  I think I'd rather keep doing that. But never say never. I fundamentally like stories.

53:21
that have consequence and causality to them. And so if there was an opportunity to tell a story that had those things, that got to see, like cerebral characters or moral characters that are tested,  that are challenged by the things they think about the world.  And I like to look at characters trying to find their way in a world gone mad, because I think our world is going mad. I think I've thought that for a decade.

53:48
I just think futurism is rushing at us too fast and we're getting lost in the shuffle and how do we make sense of this? So if it was an opportunity to explore the themes and the things that I geek out on, absolutely. But there's also a lot of characters that I'm not right for.  I shouldn't be writing Spider-Man.  I  don't know that I should be writing Superman. There's  certain things I shouldn't be writing. Yeah,  I love the honesty and I think I might have found the soundbite for this episode.

54:18
And I think that's something I really do respect about you, Zach, is that you're out here carving your own path  and you're getting the success and acclaim, rightfully so, for the work that you do. And I guess with that being said, as a writer, a creator carving his own path with his creator on titles and  fighting for  telling your story and your vision unfiltered, what advice do you have for aspiring writers? When you think back to

54:45
know, nine years ago, Zach Kaplan, you know, if Eclipse just kind of breaking in,  is there anything that you would tell him or someone in that situation? What piece of advice would you give to like maybe make their life easier  as they're trying to break in and still like hold on to their integrity and their stories? Well, I think the thing about anybody who's trying to write their own stories and they're trying to break in, I think one of the core things that all those writers deal with at the onset  is frustration.

55:15
The frustration of not getting it quick enough, not seeing it happen soon enough. The grind at the beginning level. I mean, I'm at the grind in the middle level, but at the beginning it's brutal. And I think that that's because they don't realize how long it takes.  And  I think you have to understand how long this thing takes  because  sometimes it can take a couple of years just to get one project  out. know, everything from put

55:45
contracts to finding an artist and our team pitch the pitch process can take months and months and months and months This all takes so long. And so I think if you're looking at this and you're thinking I want to be a creator I want to tell my own stories and comics and movies a podcaster whatever and you're like, alright I'm counting in months or I'm counting in a year or two. I I really don't think you're thinking long enough. I think you really have to think longer you have to

56:14
Digging your heels, you'd have to  stay grounded,  figure out a way that you can do it longer, be willing to go longer if it makes sense. But like, it can easily take five years to have that big break. And it's not a straight shot up once you have a big break. It's hills and valleys and you gotta keep at it and keep hustling. So I think  having patience and believing in yourself.

56:40
independent of the circumstances of the industry and the events  around you. You have to kind of go, I believe in myself. I have something to say. I'm going to obviously hone my craft. I'm going to try to get as good as I can. I'm going to research and  improve  what I do. I'm going to learn. I'm not just going to stagnate. But alternatively, don't get impeded or shut down by all the no's and all  the delays and all that stuff. You just have to believe. have to be.

57:08
so delusional  that you believe no matter what. Because that's the whole thing. The whole thing is this war between you and the universe. And the universe is telling you no. And you have to say, I don't believe you. I'm sorry, I don't believe you.  I believe what I believe.  I'm going to, I mean,  sadly now there are lots of delusional people that maybe shouldn't be, but then suddenly they can break through and they should be.  So.

57:37
That is, whether you should or you shouldn't, the only way to get through is to just keep believing in yourself. that's kind of what, and then go do it. And then go do it. Don't let, I don't have a publisher, I don't have an artist, I don't have this, I don't have it. Just go. Just start making something. Start small. Don't do your magnus, your opus right off the, start small, but just start doing something. And then keep going. It sounds dumb and simple, but like it's, that's what you need to do.

58:06
Yeah. mean, look, if anything, you're a walking embodiment of it, Zach. think that was well said. And I think I want to end it on that high note and say, ladies and gents, this is the Short Box podcast. And we just finished talking to Zach Kaplan about his life, career, and upcoming projects like another run of Kill All Immortals and Mastermind, which is coming out through Dark Horse Comics in August. I think the final order cutoff is like July 20th something. Regardless, go to your comic shop, tell them that you want to put the series on your pull list. That's Mastermind.

58:34
I'll have links to the previews for his upcoming projects and links to where you can follow Zach on social media linked in this episode show notes. Check it out. Zach, you've been fantastic. think it's safe to say this might be the best episode that we've done. It's awesome to have like, you know, years of refinement in both of us getting better at our craft. Do you have any parting words or shameless plug before we wrap up? No, I'll see you next time. See you next year for the next batch. There we go. Mic drop. Thank you. Thank you, Potter.

59:06
There you have it, Shortbox Nation. That's the end of the show.  Thank you for hanging out. Thanks for being here.  And a special shout out if you made it this far. If you enjoyed this episode and you have some thoughts or comments that you want to share with us, write us at theshortboxjaxx at gmail.com. And if you really liked this episode,  help us spread the word. Share this episode with a friend or someone you know that loves comics as much as we do. And don't forget to leave us a five star rating and review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify.

59:34
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01:00:01
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01:00:30
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