Jeff Lemire Tells The Story Of Jeff Lemire: An Interview About 10,000 Ink Stains, Unreleased Projects, and Breaking Into Comics - The Short Box Podcast: A Comic Book Talk Show Ep. 467

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Intro music plays

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Yoo, Short-Box Nation, hello again, welcome back, and you know what, thanks for pressing play today. If you're new, welcome to the show. My name is Badr, and this is the Short Box Podcast, the comic book talk show that brings you the best conversations about your favorite comics with the creators that put their blood, sweat, and tears into making them.  This is episode 467, and today we'll be joined by New York Times bestselling author and award-winning comic artist slash writer Jeff Lemire. Jeff is the creator of several acclaimed graphic novels like Sweet Tooth,

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Essex County, The Underwater Welder, and Trillium. Jeff has also written Green Arrow, Justice League and Animal Man for DC Comics, and Moon Knight and Hawkeye for Marvel Comics. And if you go into your local comic shops right now, you know this episode drops on Wednesdays. That's how Short Box releases. Chances are you'll see Jeff's name on a few  current comic books, like Absolute Flash, as well as brand new Robin and Batman series with Dustin Wynn. And for his creator on stuff, he's got things like Phantom Road on Image Comics.

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and minor arcana for Booms Studios. He's literally one of the best Canadian cartoonists working in comics today. He's actually got the award to prove it, as well as a bunch of other Schuster Awards and Eisner Awards to his name. Jeff is on the show today to talk about his new book,  10,000 Ink Stains. It's a hardcover graphic memoir that's available for purchase right now. It's out through Dark Horse Comics. It's a personal memoir chock full of essays, never-before-seen art, as well as behind-the-scenes stories about the making  of comics like Essex County, Sweet Tooth, and a whole lot more.

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And I want to add that, in my opinion, it is the perfect book for process junkies, aspiring comic creators, and really anyone who's interested in what it really means to put your blood, sweat, and tears into your work. So without further ado, Short Box Nation, let's welcome Jeff Lemire to the show. Hey, Jeff, how you doing today? I'm good, thanks. Jeff, I told you before we hit record, you've created something really awesome with this book. Matter of fact, let me go grab it for a moment. For the video viewers, you can actually see it is a nice, decent hardcover-sized book. It's oversized.

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It looks great as well. think this is like one of those books that you would proudly like kind of display. How's the reception been so far? I know that the book came out this week. Basically yesterday. Yeah. So it's been been really, really positive. know, obviously it's  it's  close to my heart. It's sort of in a lot of ways the most personal project I've ever really released, you know, the most autobiographical.  So it's a bit scary kind of putting yourself out like that after doing after so many years of doing stories, but kind of.

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hiding yourself in different characters of different worlds because it's a little scary to kind of be sharing the truth behind all that stuff a little bit.  I think  it's, was a good time for me to be doing that and sort of reflecting on my work and kind of getting ready for the next stuff. And I gotta say, I think it comes at a good time. Well, I'm noticing that more and more comic creators are not, are starting to get in front of the spotlight. know, like you, I love the way that you phrase it where you've been, you know, you've been sharing bits and pieces of your life throughout the different

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projects and comics they've even put out, but through the mask of like, you know, a different character and bits and pieces here and there.  But it's been interesting in the last, I'll say like five years to see all the different documentaries  and you know, like  things like memoirs and autobiographies from like other comic creators. Like this year alone,  the Alex Ross Legend of Kingdom Come documentary just came out. That was a Kickstarter thing that finally came out, was fantastic. And then in 2020, Mike Mignolo put out his drawing monsters documentary.

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And I'm all here for that, like for comic creators, especially artists and auteurs to like share these intimate details about these projects and what it's like working in the industry and  things like that. Did you have any, I guess,  documentaries or whether they be comic related or not that were maybe like your inspiration or North Star when it came to writing 10,000 Inkstains? I don't know, I've always been a process junkie, you know, like I think more than any specific kind of.

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influence just in general, love reading about comics as much as love reading comics themselves. I love reading interviews with creators about books that I've read. love reading, Dave Givens put out a kind of something similar a couple of years ago, sort of a memoir in our book that kind of cataloged his whole career, which is basically much longer and more story than mine. But I love kind of seeing that behind the scenes stuff.

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getting into the process that my favorite artists sort of go through their lives and their work and kind of seeing the trajectory of their careers and stuff. And these essays that I wrote for this book obviously started off as sub stack posts, know, for going book by book and sharing process stuff and like the stories behind each project. And I did a few of those. And once I had done two or three of them, it kind of felt like built some momentum and I kind of wanted to.

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make it complete, you know, until they cover the whole career from beginning to now. yeah, so it just sort of kind of took on a life of its own and turned into the book that came out this week, which is, you know, something I'm really proud of. it as therapeutic as I think it would be to like have this exercise to go through? Because I mean, you're sharing like old photos, you're sharing unreleased sketches, know, artwork that people haven't seen before, I think some scripts.

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Like is it as therapeutic as I think it would be? Or is  it challenging to like have to go through  old things and  see the progress and the growth or maybe even like have certain memories or situations like, I have to  think about those again. Yeah, I think it can be a bit of both. I think  there were times where it felt really freeing and kind of pathetic to put stuff down on paper that I've been carrying around stories or feelings about things. And then there were other times where things were a bit more challenging.

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maybe certain sections of my career that I wasn't as compelled to revisit, but if I wanted to be a completist, I kind of had to. So yeah, it can be a bit of both, but I you know, I wrote most of the book, probably finished it over a year ago. So I've had some, little bit of perspective now. And yeah, I think I'm ultimately very cathartic and kind of, it was like a nice sort of, okay, like take stock of everything I've done.

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All right, that's out of my system. Now let's move forward again kind of feeling. It's nice. Yeah. I got to give you props too, because this inspired me to look at my storage situation a little different.  I think for many comic book collectors and serious fans, there's a little bit of  a hoarder situation.  And depending on who you are, that might differ. Maybe you don't have a stack of books everywhere in your house. Versus someone like me, I've got a separate storage unit for things like posters and comics I've collected throughout the years.

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And to see  this book and how you incorporate some of these things that you've held onto for so many years is inspiring because I ended up looking at my wife like, see, I told you, this stuff can come in handy at some point later on. And guess, you always  been someone that held onto a lot of things?  What is your storage situation looking like? Do you always  keep copies of script and  of all your scripts and artwork? Is that something that is conscious for you? Yeah, mean, for the most part, I

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I keep all my sketchbooks and I keep all my artwork. You know, I do sell artwork, obviously, through my dealer, but I keep before I sell anything, I'll keep a selection of my favorites for myself, you know, and yeah, I'm pretty good about archiving that stuff and taking care of it, you know, in terms of books and stuff, though, not so much like I'm pretty I'll get rid of I'll give away books and get rid of them pretty fast. Like I don't feel the connection to that stuff as much, but my own work, I kind of feel. I don't know.

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I just feel like it's a part of me in a weird way, a small part of me, so I kind of hold onto it and take care of it. Yeah, I think that's a good way  to view it. And I think it comes across in the memoir really well that  you really do, you are someone that has put their heart and soul into all of the projects. I really enjoyed hearing  where you were at in your life. It wasn't all success and roses and all of that.  There were some difficult

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things that you had to overcome that you were very honest in  sharing in the book. And I guess, was there any hesitance at any point during the process of writing this where you thought maybe that you were maybe sharing too much or being too  vulnerable? Like,  I guess,  how did you balance being like, you know, honest and vulnerable with still like maintaining some parts for yourself? Yeah, well, I mean, there's a lot of things that I didn't put in  the  books.  You know, this  is there, you know. Yeah.

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I presume you're talking about some of the things I shared about some struggles with depression and  anxiety and things like that.  Well, that and just being blunt and honest about, hey, I  was working with this company and I wasn't really feeling inspired. I  think you said something in the book about your hot guy run. You were like, hey, look, it's a solid run.

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But considering all the things going on behind the scenes, I look at it and be like, eh, it was solid, which I appreciate. These are conversations I think that fans are having about your work. So it's interesting to get your opinion on it and for you to just be blunt about the stuff that you're sharing. Yeah, well, think it's a job like any other. when you're doing creator-owned work, you have a lot more control over things, obviously.

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But when you do work for, for Marvel or DC, you do give up a certain amount of control and, um, you kind of hope everything lines up and you get with a great artist and a great editor who gets you and you can do something special. And that does happen, but it doesn't always happen because you can't always  control everything. You know, and  I think the thing to remember is like,  uh, you know, you go into every project wanting to do something great. You really do it. You don't, I mean, I do anyway,  I've never taken something just for cash or just.

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whatever any other reason other than I was excited about the potential and the story. And sometimes it just doesn't come together, you know, as much as you want it to, you know, and, and I guess it's okay to be honest about that, you know, there are things I've done that, like, that weren't as strong as, you know, when you do it, you do as many books as I have, they're not all going to be in the tens, you know, but you kind of hope your track record for the most part, they're good, always the bad. Yeah, you know,

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There were times at Marvel and DC where things lined up perfectly, know, like with Animal Man or Moon Knight at Marvel. it was just like serendipity, the right artist, the right time of my life for that character and the right editors who just really let me do my thing. And  then there were other stuff where you wanted to do that, but it just didn't quite happen. know, things didn't click and that's just the way it is. That's part of the creative life, I guess. You know, it's not always going to click.

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Yeah. And I guess on the topic of your extensive career, does feel like at this point you could fill up a small library with just Jeff Lemire work, whether it be the things that you've been the auteur or written and  done the art as well.  And I ask this respectfully, do you feel like an elder statesman, like someone that that could give advice to aspiring? How often are you giving advice to aspiring artists or interacting with writers and creators at conventions and  helping them out? Like, do you feel like you're in position to

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dish out like, you know, that type of advice? Yes, it's funny, you know, it's like, life comes at you fast.  It feels like was like yesterday that I was like the new, the new guy at DC doing Animal Man and Sweet Tooth.  But then you realize, yeah, that's like 15 years ago now. And there's like a whole new generation of creators now younger than me who,  so yeah, kind of things shift quick and you start to place, oh, wait a minute, I have been around for a while. And, and, and there are people who come to me and ask,

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and who kind of look up to me or whatever. you kind of, so your perspective certainly shifts. I think a part of that is why I did this book where it's, I think in some way just sort of sharing my story helps demystify that creative process. And just because when you want to do something, there are so many people who want to make comics or want to do something creative. And there's so many reasons not to start doing it. You know what I mean? Like can come up with so many excuses not to do it.

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And I guess the book just shows that really the biggest thing is just hard work. You got to stick with it. You have to do the work, you know, and that's,  you know, talent and everything is like  only a small percent of success. It's really persistence and the hard work that make you kind of push through.  yeah, so I think just sort of sharing that because I  think  I get asked a lot, you know, how do I break into comics? How do I, you know,

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by young creators and I think often they're looking for a secret cheat code, know, and the truth is it's kind of like, well, it just takes a lot of hard work and a lot of, you have to do a lot of bad comics before you start doing some good ones, you know,  and people don't want to hear that, you know, they want like the quick instant success thing, but it was like half a decade of doing bad comics before I published anything, you know, and I just, just sharing that sort of some of the struggles and the ups and downs and all that stuff is just.

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makes you hopefully makes people realize that the real joy is the process itself. is making the comics.  It's not any kind of success that comes afterwards because that stuff's fleeting. And, you know, if you if you're not enjoying it, if you don't actually love just the actual act of sitting down and drawing, telling stories, then maybe you shouldn't be doing it, you know, because that's really that's the joy of it of anything really. But you got to you got to be in the moment and try to work.

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Well said, and it kind of reminds me of something you posted on your sub stack. When David Lynch passed away, you had wrote, thank you for inspiring me to become an artist and for showing me the importance of focusing on the joy of doing the work itself, not what may come from it. And I thought that was a very powerful quote. When did that really start to click for you? That it's about the journey and doing the things you love, not what it will return or any type of financial or reward? Yeah.

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It was a gradual thing. When I was  younger and just starting out and I did the Essex County graphic novels,  they were successful in terms of critical acclaim and stuff, but I was still working a day job as a cook. Those books, while critically acclaimed and stuff, they weren't enough to live off of.  I think that realization then was like, okay, I really love doing this.

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And I'm proud that's probably going to be my life. Like, I'm not going to make a living doing this. So I'm going to work a day job as a cook or whatever. And then I'll do my comics as my passion and just sort of enjoy that that life. And so I never really went into it thinking I would work for Marvel or DC Comics and I'd make a lot of money and have film adaptations and all this all this other stuff. Like, I really was just. In it for the comics, you for the  making it, I guess that's how I started. And then.

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Obviously, when you start to actually get some success and things,  it shifts everything and you do, it is easy to start chasing that, you know, if you're not careful. But, you know, I think over the course of my career, the stuff I'm most proud of and the stuff that kind of fills me up the most,  those times where it's just the creative joy of creating those things and doing the books themselves, not all the other stuff around it.  it's sort of a perspective that comes  with age and time, I think a little bit too.

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Our careers are world apart, but  what you just said is a similar piece of advice that I give a lot of aspiring podcasters.  I run a podcast networking group here, Community and Jax called Jax Podcasts United. So we have a lot of aspiring and newbie folks that want to get into podcasting and they're always asking, hey, what do I need to hit the ground running and be successful? How do I make money off of a podcast? And it's always like, no, no, no, no.

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That may never come at all. You gotta do this for the love of the game. Whatever your topic or show is about, you better be super passionate about it to spend countless hours crafting a good show and editing and everything that goes with promoting it and et cetera.  Don't even factor that in.  If your heart's not in it, you will quickly burn out and be demoralized.  And I think that's applicable to any kind of creative  job or outlet or hobby, whatever it may be.

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Like you gotta be fueled by like just raw passion. Yeah, absolutely. If you don't love it, forget it. You know, you're not gonna and people aren't gonna enjoy it. They're gonna be able to see that. Oh, and that's  early on. I just decided, you know what? I'm just gonna do the stuff that I really love doing the kinds of stories I really love doing.  And the  chances are if I love doing it, that'll come through in the work and someone else will too. And so far that's always worked for me, you know, and it's those  those few times where I've taken a job or an assignment.

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for other reasons that they haven't worked. You quickly learn those lessons.  And I think it comes across in your work, especially now. I loved getting to  the point in the book where you had a couple of  projects  with Marvel and DC. And then you ended up finding out or really leaning into, think, your first project image of a descender and just falling in love of creator-owned work. The way that came across in the book in that chapter was like, oh, wow.

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You mentioned in the book right before you got to Marvel and DC, you said something about you had no ambition to be a comic book writer. You just wanted to be a cartoonist doing your own thing. Is there still a difference in your mind between being a comic book writer and a cartoonist? And does that distinction still matter to you now? Yeah, there is a difference. It's a totally different way of approaching the work. When you're drawing it yourself as well.

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It's just a completely different creative process. You get to go much deeper and you have complete and total control. so, yeah, it's hard, you know, as much as I love writing for people like Dustin Wan and whoever, know, it is a different, a different thing. And, you know, but I'm just kind of lucky in that I'm, I'm able to juggle for whatever reason. I've always been able to juggle multiple things. So I don't have to choose between doing those two things anymore. I can just kind of get to do that, whatever I want.

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So I can always be drawing my own thing. And then I still have time to write stuff for those guys and enjoy that collaboration, you know, but I think at the end of the day, when, as I get older and sort of slow down, I'm sure it'll kind of go back to where it started where I'm just writing and drawing my own book, you know, that's kind of the goal. about collaboration. So you're the writer of the book and then  you're working with designer Courtney  Minard  on 10,000 Inkstains. I was curious, how does this process?

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I guess, did your approach differ from your usual script writing and  story outlines for a comic book versus  something that's entirely about you and your life? Yeah, it was very different. When you're writing a script, you're still telling the story. You're controlling the pacing. You're creating characters and stuff. And this was much different. This was more, I mean, I wrote the essays. So those were the spine of the thing. And that's the shape of it.  And then it was really just a matter of  going through all my stuff and scanning.

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thing and just giving Courtney a big  file of like, you know, everything. And so you did all the manual work of scanning everything. Well, I hired my niece to do. I love that.  The more important images that kind of relate to things in the essays and, then  her kind of looking at my body of work and trying to come up with an aesthetic that looked like my work, you know, and yes, she, you know, it was just sort of that  step by step kind of

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thing.  It was different. wasn't sort of visual panel to panel storytelling. was more like,  let's find images and artwork and stuff that kind of complements what I'm writing about in the essays. Yeah. I got to say  having your niece scan, the heavy duty lifting of like scanning is such, it's the perfect niece nephew task ever I've ever heard. So kudos on that and shout out to your niece. And she was happy to do it.

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Speaking about the structure of the book, that is one thing  I got to give you props as well as Courtney is  the formatting and structure of the book,  it's a timeline. I you are literally working from growing up in Essex County to all the way up to,  I think up to like minor Arcana. think you said you finished writing.  I think I wrote the last thing  last summer, like a year ago.

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And I love that each chapter is like a different phase from, you know, here's how Sweet Tooth got made. And then I got the opportunity of DC Comics. Here's my Marvel era. And then here's my creator owned era. There isn't much like jumping around, maybe like here and there. But for the most part, it's a pretty linear story, which I really appreciate. Did you have a certain goal in mind like, OK, I'm going to tell up to this point,  does page count matter at all when you're doing an exercise like this? I didn't worry about page count because

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I didn't really know how that, I didn't have a concept of, you know, how much room the images and stuff take. I just, when I was writing the essays, I did write them in chronological order because they just sort of found like with anything you start remembering things and it just sort of comes out like a cascades, you know? So it was just easy to organize it by sticking to that chronological order. And also, I mean, I think it's just the most accurate way to see like the arc of a career and my work and everything. So yeah, just organizing it.

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Organizing it  from book to book, it just seemed like a simple and easy way to do that. But I didn't worry too much about the length that when I was writing, I just kind of wrote. And then later, there was some editing.  Got it. Got it. I said that you could fill a small library of your published work. But I think the same could be said about the unpublished projects, the things that never came to fruition. And two, caught my  eye or my attention from reading the book was

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You mentioned that there was a Starman and Doctor Star crossover with James Robinson writing it and you would have done the art that never came to fruition. And then I think you mentioned a whole bunch of other scrap projects, but that one really caught my eye. I was like, oh my God, whatever petition I need to sign to make this happen, let's make it happen. listen, I have the script. James wrote it.  Oh my God. Yeah, yeah. It's hard to talk about. There was some legal stuff. Sure, sure. Starman and Doctor Star. DC was great. They were super supportive, but it just got kind

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tricky with some legal things and we couldn't do it.  But yeah, that would have been a blast. mean, love obviously the Dr. Star character who's now Dr. Andromeda. Black Hand was  heavily inspired by James and by his Starman stuff.  And so that would have been a really cool project.  yeah, you know, and I was reminded, I actually did an interview with, I did another podcast a week or two ago and we had like a conversation with Paul Pope and

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Paul reminded me there was like a brief second where he and I almost did Black Bolt at Marvel together. So I forgot.  Holy shit.  There's always little things like that. And  you know, that are  you could fill a book with like all those almost projects. know, that sounds so cool. But  everyone's got them who works in industry. But yeah, those are a couple of neat ones. Yeah, no, that sounds yeah. There was like I think you mentioned like a Thor miniseries that they wanted you to write and all that. So yeah, that was like the first.

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When I was doing Sweet Tooth, got... DC asked me to pitch  Superboy and the Marvel asked me to pitch this Thor miniseries at the same time. And I pitched both and then the DC one just kind of took off and I kept going with DC.

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If they were to  both company, I guess any company, if any company wanted you to come in and pitch something to them  based on your choice, is there any  publisher or character that you're still kind of maybe yearning to write or take a swing at? Yeah, I don't know if there is any more. I think I feel like I've scratched all those itches. I wanted to do Swamp Thing and I got to do that at Black Label.  I always wanted to the JSA and I'm doing it.

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So yeah, you know, like all the big ones I've kind of got to do and I think really just I keep doing more creator on stuff. That's really where, you know, I got to more player for that really than other stuff. One that comes to mind for me that I think you would absolutely probably knock it out the park. I would love to see your interpretation both writing and art is Hellboy. I don't know why, but I feel like there would be something there with you and Hellboy. That'd be cool. Yeah, I love Mike. So it's a great world. Yeah.

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You mentioned in the book as well that just  the  level of difficulty  of trying to break into comic books, not just trying to break into comic books, but also creating comic books at the time that you were in college,  drawing,  trying to come up with concepts and create these zines and self-published work. The level of effort that went into it, whether that be going to  a Kinko's and Xeroxing it yourself and Staples and

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mailing things out and  you had to apply for the  Kevin Eastman grant  to all these things,  all these loopholes and things that you had to jump through to even get your work  made. I thought it was fascinating. Do you think you would have it easier or harder in today's age of the internet and social media breaking into comics versus when you started? I think it'd be harder now.

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you know, ironically, we didn't have the internet. you had to do a lot  of other sort of more grassroots kind of ways of sharing your work, you know, like mailing it out to people and, and doing like a lot of small press shows, like  in conventions and things. And  but, and whereas today, you know, you can just basically post your work online instantly. But  the fact is that now there's just so much stuff out there, like you're it's  over saturated with content and with media.

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to get your stuff seen by people or someone to pay attention to is much harder because there's so much competition and noise  in the world, I think, than there was when I started. What does it mean to be a Canadian comic creator in an industry that primarily or at least seems to skew towards American readers? And maybe that's just specifically for the direct market. Like, do you think that in this day and age with the internet and, you know, comics being this global thing that that

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the Canadian perspective is still unique. Do you think that that's still an edge that you've got  and  still untapped potential in terms of storytelling or influence? I don't know if it's an edge or anything like that. I just think  the first success I really had was Essex County. And that was telling a very specific, very regional story.  But  it did really well all over, like in the States and everything. And that taught me really early on in my career that

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the more specific you can be about a place in your storytelling is actually makes it more universal.  For whatever reason, the more detail, the more nuance that you can draw from real life and put into that stuff,  you would think it might alienate readers, but it does the opposite. actually makes it seem more real to them. And  so I learned early on  that that was the case. So I feel like  whenever I can, I try to do that. I try to be specific about where I live and our country.

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or wherever, know, all the things that I know intimately, you know, the places I know, because you can just add more, more shades to it and more, more flavor than if you're talking about some things you've never been or only visited once, you know, and  it just allows for more, I guess, more honest storytelling.  Yeah, I think more that more than anything, it's not for any sort of political reason or  anything like that. It's just more of  the old right, you know, there is a lot of good because you just bring more of yourselves to work.

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I actually wrote down one of these quotes from the books. said, creating personal work means looking at your real life and telling honest stories, which, yeah, I was like, man, that means a lot. Yeah, when people, when you say personal, this is a personal project or personal story, the assumption often is that you mean that it's autobiographical. But that to me is not true. feel like, like you said, it's just being emotionally honest and honest about where you are in your life, what's going on. It doesn't have to be directly autobiographical.

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So grew up in Essex County, Ontario,  I believe you live now in Toronto and for the the layman that has maybe never been to Canada or doesn't know much about Canada like how  different are these two worlds for you  and and then I also want to ask what is the comic scene like in Toronto? Well, I mean there where I grew up was  extremely rural like just complete flat farmland with the closest neighbor is you know kilometers away,  you know,

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going from there to when I came here in, I guess I came here in 95 to go to school. It's a very dense urban center. It's two completely different worlds. And I kind of love the contrast of that. I think you see it in a lot of my work where there's a rural and a urban sort of worlds colliding. You you started to see it in Black Hammer and Gideon Falls and all these places. You people out of that work as well. In terms of the comic scene here, I mean,

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It's pretty vibrant. know, TCAAF is a really well-respected and vibrant show and there are dozens of professionals working here. Chip, Czarski, and Francis Manipoul and Ramon Perez. And there's a lot of us that live and work in the city. So yeah, it's a pretty vibrant scene. It's pretty good. What do you think is in your mind, an essential Canadian novel, whether that be a comic book or a prose book? And it can be your personal favorite.

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My favorite Canadian cartoonist has always been Seth. So his book, Clyde Vans, which came out maybe years ago, finally, it was sort of a 20 year project for him. started in the late nineties and just finished it a couple of years ago. And for me, that's like a quintessential Canadian graphic novel for sure. One of my favorite topics and things that you cover in the memoir is talking about the various workspaces and studios that you've had in your life, you know, from

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from the small nook in the basement, know, crammed between the washroom and the cat litter to,  where you're working at now. I'm looking at you on video  and the studio is looking spacious. You've got art on the wall. You got natural light.  there anything in your office that you couldn't live without? Like, is there anything essential that you need to have in your office? You know, I think what I've learned over the years, I mean, I'm really lucky now that I have this  awesome space with tons of room and everything.

32:14
But really this is just, it's just spaces for all my junk. You actually work in one tiny corner, you know, so I think over the years I've learned that all I really need is my drawing desk and my tools and the rest is all just icing on the cake. You don't really need it. It's fun to have all the stuff around me, but you know, you know, my most productive period of my career probably was I think around 2008, 2009, I came up with

32:43
Black Hammer, Sweet Tooth,  Underwater Welder,  a bunch of my sort of bigger things all within the same two or three year period. And that was all when I was crammed between the cat litter and the washing machine in our old basement. I  don't think it's as important. It's just another excuse I think people make not to do the work. need  the space, you need whatever, honestly, you the essentials, you need ink and a desk and your pencils. I mean, I'm glad I have the space now. It's fun, but I don't need it.

33:14
God forbid this ever happens, but let's say  a fire breaks out, you can only grab  whatever two or three items from your current workspace slash studio. What do you immediately grabbing?  Oh, yeah. That's tough. I mean, I have a lot of original art on my walls from other artists that I love, know. I have a portrait of David Lynch that Bill Sienkiewicz did for me. Oh, wow. It's probably my prized possession, so I'd have to grab that.

33:43
Yeah, I mean, it would be hard to pick though, because I have some stuff here I love artwork wise. That sounds awesome. mean, Billson Cavage is worth running into a flaming building to try to grab some original art. I guess on the topic of original art and whatnot, I want to get back to talking about your collaborators. And I have a list of some of my favorite artists that you've worked with in the past. So I'd love to hear what words come to mind or stories or whatever they may be when I say the following creators, all right?

34:12
I'll start off with Dustin Wynn, who you've worked on with on Descenders, Ascenders, and then this new Batman and Robin series as well. What works come to mind with Dustin Wynn? Kids. Dustin draws the best kids, you know, and I love writing kids. the projects we tend to do so far, I mean, look at Descenders, all about the young robot boy. Little Monsters was child vampires, and then Robin and Batman was obviously Robin. So  there is a trend there that we,  about kids and children seem, it's really his strength.

34:42
I love doing them as well.  Next year's Eisner Awards. There needs to be a topic for best kids drawn category. Dustin would sweep that. Next babies next.  OK, how about we go to something  current on the current Absolute Flash series of DC Comics. You're working with Nick Robles, who I won't lie  was brand new to me. I'm reading Absolute Flash. And I got to say, his artwork is absolutely amazing. And whoever the colorist is on that series as well, mean, gorgeous color.

35:12
Yeah, Adriana Lucas. Yeah. I mean, I was, I knew Nick stuff mostly just from social media, seeing his pinups and stuff. And then Nick worked with a friend of mine, Tate Bromble on a book at Boom, where I saw his interior work for the first time and loved that. But it was, it was like a new, a new thing for me to be working with Nick on this too. So I didn't really know him, you know, and we, kind of had to feel it. had to feel each other out. But it was really early on that.

35:40
Nick did the first few designs for Wally West and he kind of was playing around with the visual language of what Wally's powers could look like in this new iteration, you know, because we were really, the one thing I was really trying to do was like, just because it's a flash, it doesn't have to be the same flash. It doesn't have to be the same powers. You know, I mean, like it can be something completely different and new and Nick really started playing around with the visual aspects of that and adding this weird sort of almost, I don't know how to explain it.

36:10
You go see it when you look at the book, but kind of expressing Molly's powers almost with these geometric shapes and color and stuff. it was  kind of a revelation. And then  it's fun when you see stuff like that early on in the process. And then I could start writing new stuff based on  his visual ideas and you kind of build off each other back and forth. So, yeah, it's been really fun. And  he does really, really great character work as well, which is the most important thing, I think. Yeah, it's been fun. It's been a great, a great.

36:38
match between he and I, think. Awesome. Yeah. And I believe issue five will be out by the time this interview comes out. So if you haven't read, if you're not reading absolute flash, absolutely check it out. All right. How about we go to Dean Ormstrom, who is, your co-creator on black camera, which for me, you know, pound for pound might be my favorite project from you, Jeff. Thanks, man. Yeah. So black hammer.  When I was doing that,  um, this would have been,  I mean, I came up with black camera a long time ago.

37:06
right after Essex County back in the day when I didn't think I'd ever get to do superhero comics,  you know, from Marvel or DC for real. So I kind of, oh, this is my version of superhero comics, but I never really got to do it back then. And then when I started writing books for other artists,  that kind of came up as, maybe I can do this with someone else. And I had met Dean when I was doing Animal Man for DC. I had met Dean in England at a show and I had loved his Vertigo stuff from the nineties. And so we kind of hit it off.

37:35
He had a real horror sensibility about his work. It's very dark, lots of shadows.  He loves drawing monsters.  So I always kind of kept him in mind for a project one day. And then when I thought about doing Black Hammer again, I wanted someone to draw that book that who didn't typically draw superheroes. I didn't want it to look like a Marvel or DC superhero comic. wanted it  to not look super hero-y, but be about superheroes, have its own vibe. So  Dean...

38:04
Dean came up as someone who would be interesting to see, well, how would he draw superheroes? And that's why I think his sort of dark sensibility with lots of shadow and everything just brought a new sort of flavor to that universe. All right. The last name I'll mention here  is Andrea Sorrentino, who you've worked with on numerous occasions, Green Arrow, Old Man Logan, Gideon Falls, et cetera, et cetera. What words come to mind when you think of Andrea? His layouts are unreal.

38:33
I'll give him an idea and he'll take it and push it to 15. With his layouts, he's just really so inventive in his storytelling. And then I think more than any other artist I work with, it's like this different push and pull of collaboration where I'll have an idea, I'll give it to him. He'll come back with something really different from what I imagined or he'll enhance what I imagined in a different way.

38:58
that inspires new story ideas. So it's like a back and forth. I talked about that with Nick a little bit, but Andrea as well, where  it's more of a conversation back and forth idea. It's like throwing a volleyball, know, tossing it back and forth. And  then the story becomes sort of  greater than the sum of its parts and it kind of grows out of that. So I kind of love that sort of back and forth. I think just looking at your Green Arrow series with him, there are so many pages from that book that are still burned in my memory.

39:27
of picking them up off the shelf when they came out and just how  inventive he was with the layout and  some of the geometric shapes and patterns. And it's like, all of this in a green arrow? Am I reading the right character?  Andrea is like,  mean, where his mind goes is so impressive. And I think you've got such a knack for picking these artists that bring a different flavor and a different mindset.

39:57
You know, like no two projects to me, especially the ones where you're writing and working for an artist, ever feel the same. And I think, pound for pound, you probably have worked with some of the best artists out there. Like, your collaborations are top notch, man. I guess, how do you go about picking your collaborative partners? I know for a lot of times, it's like, especially with work in Marvel DC, they've already got an artist in mind and you guys to meet. like in today's day and age,

40:22
going back to the topic of social media and the internet and people being able to share their work. Are you ever looking for up and coming artists on things like Instagram or DeviantArt and things like that?  Not so much because  I'm usually so busy with the projects I'm working on that don't have time to like start thinking of new projects for new artists.  know, so yeah. And I've also at this point kind of developed these longer, longer relationships with specific people that I want to keep going, you so.

40:53
I think when I was starting out at DC and Marvel, like you said, you'd get sometimes get paired with an artist who didn't know and it would be great or sometimes I wouldn't click as much. that's what that happened with Andrea and with a few other people. And when you find the ones that you work with, you really hold on to them. it's like, try to anyway. And so yeah, I think more than anything, it's like you develop these relationships over time and multiple projects and then you become

41:23
attached to those people and you won't keep doing those things.  If you guys were about as much about the friendships and stuff as it does about the work itself, I think sometimes. You know what, on the topic of your workload, I want to shift gears and get into the short box friends and family segment. So this is the part where I shut up for a little bit and I let a friend and family chime into the conversation. In this case, I'm a

41:45
Toss it up to my boy Chris Hacker, one half of the Oblivion Bar podcast. Yo, what is up Shortbox Nation? This is Chris Hacker, co-host of the Oblivion Bar podcast. reached out to me to see if I had another question for Jeff Lemire because Jeff, if you're listening to this right now, are like, wow, I just heard from this guy about a week ago. He doesn't leave me alone. And for that, I apologize. But when Bada comes asking for more questions to Jeff Lemire, I am going to provide that. We talked about how you're working on a lot of things at once and not all of this

42:14
is necessarily being worked on at the same exact time, but you have a lot of things out at the same time.  But I am curious, just  what does your workload look like on a daily or maybe even weekly basis? How do you handle multiple projects at once? What does your process sort of look like in terms of how you get in those different head spaces and  how you add more to  each of those stories  with multiple characters and storylines and  all the things in your head?

42:38
Be curious to hear your answer. Excited to listen to this interview between you and Bodder. Shout out to Bodder, one of my BFFs in the podcasting space. And I hope you guys have a great time. Thank you. Big shout out to Chris at Belivian Bar podcast. Check it out. Yeah. I mean, I tend to compartmentalize things. So I'm only really, I kind of only work on one thing at a time, you know, and I get really into whatever book it is. So obviously drawing takes longer than writing. So right now I'm doing Minor Arcana as a monthly comic, you know. So I...

43:08
drawing an issue of that usually takes four or five weeks. So it'll be four or five weeks of just intense drawing every day. Like I don't write anything. just, I just come in and I'm really focused on the visual aspect of drawing and telling a story that way. And, then usually by the time I finish an issue of minor arcana, then I'm burnt out on drawing and I need to break, which is great. And then I'll take like a week or two and I'll just write something. And then I've staggered my projects so I don't have, you know, I usually have to do one at a time. So the last

43:37
I just, I'm starting a new issue of minor again today, but when I finished the previous one, I took two weeks and just worked on JSA and I wrote, I think I wrote three full scripts in those, in that two weeks. You know, I just got completely absorbed in that world again and it takes a couple of days to get thinking about it again. But then when you get rolling, you know, I like to get a lot done when I'm really in the world. So I try to get multiple scripts done rather than just do one at a time. Cause I feel like you write a script and then you wait a month and you have to get back into it again. I remember where you were.

44:07
kind of get back into the feeling.  So when I'm in that space that had like the flow of that world and those characters, I like to write a bunch of it. So it has a cohesive feel, know? So I'll write like for two weeks, I'll just write constantly and do two or three or four scripts.  And then I'm burnt out on writing, which is great because it's time to start a new issue. And then I get back into drawing. And  that's sort of that's it kind of keeps me fresh, you know, going between writing and drawing that way.  Yeah, you kind of.

44:35
get a break from one, and then you get back into it. it seems to work. It's always worked for me. That's kind of how I've been doing it  since the  early DC days of kind of jumping back and forth like that. What's the very first step  in a brand new project? I guess mine are kind of being a good example or any one that you want to mention. But what's the first step that you do for a brand new project? And does it differ if you're writing and drawing it or just writing?  Yeah, it does.

45:04
I mean, there's lots of projects that I'm thinking about now for the future,  but so you get little seeds of ideas and things you kind of are thinking about, but you got to give those things time to kind of  sit, you know, and I don't have time to get to them yet anyway. So usually there's like a year or two of just sort of, you kind of have a  core idea or something that you're kind of interested in and you're just kind of letting yourself kind of work on it. And you,  you write down, I write down little bits and pieces here and there.

45:34
until I feel like I've got enough that, okay, I'm ready to actually start writing this now or whatever. that, you know, usually it's like a year or two of kind of slow development before I get into that stage. And the difference between the writing and drawing is that if it's something I'm going to write for Dustin or something, you're just writing ideas in your notebook. But if it's something I'm going to kind of maybe want to draw, then you're also sketching, know, so there's a visual.

46:01
Nice. You mentioned Paul Pope earlier  and speaking about Chris Hacker, he just  dropped a fantastic interview with Paul Pope over on the Oblivion Bar podcast. I think on that same day, you had posted something on your Instagram about the artists you grew up reading and inspired by in your comic book journey, Paul Pope being among them. And I was just curious to bring that full circle. What is it about Paul Pope that resonates with you as a fellow creator? It sounds like you've had a chance to meet him and even maybe have

46:31
like some work in the way. Yeah. When I was when I came to Toronto to do film stuff in my early, guess I was in my early  20s. It was the mid 90s. And I mean, I never really stopped reading comics, but I definitely had slowed down. know, superhero comics  at the time were really doing it for me. And  I was reading the Vertigo stuff. But even that the first wave of all the Vertigo stuff had kind of come and gone. And I was  not as in love with the medium as I had been as a kid, you know.

46:58
And then when I started doing film stuff and I enjoyed it, but I felt I missed drawing and I kind of missed that aspect. And I went to a comic shop here and Paul's I saw Paul's work for the first time. I had never seen it before and I just was immediately struck by like the expressiveness and energy of his brushwork and.

47:19
Yeah, the immediacy of it  and the spontaneity of his lines and everything. And it just got me really excited. And it got me to start drawing again. You I bought a sketchbook probably the same day and some brushes and started to try to do what he was doing. And it really got me back into just the joy of drawing, you know, seeing his stuff. So, yeah, it was it was very fundamental in getting me back into comics. Jeff, one of the things you talk about in that book that I've  got a good like chuckle out of was.

47:46
the art class that you ended up taking, I think, like after college and some of the unconventional  art methods and tools that you were using in this class to kind of like get you to think, you know, bigger and wider. You mentioned something about  using a celery stick dipped in ink to draw. And I just, I was like, I gotta see what that artwork looks like.  do you still practice or do any unconventional exercises or practices or tools?

48:13
like in your artwork or should you know, it's a really interesting exercise where you bring all these different objects to class and you have to use those draw instead of your traditional pencils or pens or brushes, because it can really, it can really break you out of like, you can really get in the train tracks where you start using a certain tool or a certain thing and you get stuck just doing that, you know, and you can kind of stop experimenting. And that can really force you to like

48:39
let go of everything you're comfortable with and just like make mistakes and get messy and just see what different making marks with different things looks like and  you start to see potential in little things that of course are messy and crazy at first but you see little things you can kind of follow and  it's just a good kind of exercise to break you out of patterns really you know and it was good yeah yeah well said all right lightning round question really quick if you had to make a mount rush more of your all-time favorite

49:06
comic creators, whether they be writers, artists or auteurs, who would be on that Mount Rushmore today?  You'd have to have Jack Kirby, Will Eisner,  Joe Kubert.

49:23
Alan Moore. Solid lineup right there. I mean, that's,  I'll stop at those four. Yeah. Cause I can't think of anyone else for  Alan.  I want to pivot really quick. Cause this just came to mind in the book. There's a whole chapter dedicated to your time working on the Essex County live action show.  And I found that chapter both ironic thing also full circle.

49:47
Cause you know, in the beginning you talk about going to college to learn film and then eventually like kind of shifting gears to focus on comics full time. And then here you are many years later working on adapting one of your comic books into a show. So I'm like, oh, well that's kind of cool that he got to go back to his like, you know, film school route or, you know, path and maybe those skillsets, but you were very honest like, hey, this is not, you know, like it's great, but it's also a lot of work.

50:14
a lot of rewriting on the spot, which I thought was really fascinating, you talking about we would literally rewrite scenes right on the moment because logistical things, like real life, like, we don't have enough, whatever, daylight, so how do we approach this scene?  And  you talk about how much of a toll that took on you, energy-wise and  all of that stuff.  And  I could have sworn, I was like, man, I'd be curious if he ever goes back to working in live action.

50:42
And I don't know if it was the sub stack or maybe something else I seen, I  seen something that you're working on a black hammer light alive adaptation. Is that accurate?  I'm not really supposed to talk about that.  yeah, there's always been some black hair stuff going on in the background that I've been doing some adaptations and stuff. Nothing imminent.  But yeah, mean, yeah,  that was a really challenging process doing that show. It was.

51:11
Yeah, since I got done the show, I've really just been focusing on comics.  There's something that's come up in the last couple of months that's kind of interesting that I'm dabbling with, but who knows if it'll even happen.  You got to stay open to new things. I just closed doors. But yeah, really comics  is doing that show as much as it was  sometimes thrilling and sometimes heartbreaking and all the things together. I think more than anything, it just made me appreciate.

51:39
the directness of comics and the creative freedom that I have doing comics. The TV and movie stuff is always kind of interesting, but it's never the priority, I guess. Got it, got it. And I think it shows just in the amount of work that you've currently got going on. I mean, you've got Minor Icona going on, Absolute Flash, the new Batman and Robin series of Dustin Wynn. What else you got, Jeff? I'm drawing a blank. know there's like... I'm missing two. There's others. What am I...

52:09
What am I doing? don't know.  JSA. JSA. That's right. Then I'm working on some new creator on stuff that will announce later. How do you take, what do do when you take a break? Like how do you decompress and step away? you know whenever I do.  Like what is a, like, do you work even through the weekend? Like what is a?  Yeah, I work Monday to Friday and I don't, I don't work on the weekend. Yeah.  Yeah. I got a pretty boring life, man. I just go home and spend time with my family.

52:39
read and stuff. I know, man. feel like at least the work is interesting as hell. All  right. Last question here. We're recording this episode. By the time this episode comes out, it'll be the Wednesday before San Diego Comic Con.  I believe you're doing a couple of panels, a couple of things at San Diego Comic Con. Obviously, I want to know what can people expect from you at San Diego Comic Con? And then just out of curiosity, like I said in the beginning, you always struck me as someone that was reserved, very modest.

53:09
Like, do you do a lot of traveling to conventions? Is that like your opportunity to kind of like, you know, get out of your shell, meet, you know, the fans and other creators? Like, you like, do you enjoy traveling for conventions? I do. I enjoy the social aspect of meeting and being able to spend time with other other creators because I don't get a chance to do that. You know, and often that's the only time I get to spend time with some of my collaborators as well. I like that aspect of it. The show itself can be kind of grueling. So, I mean, I don't do a lot. usually do just one or two a year.

53:40
mostly because I'm so busy and  family stuff and with work that you know traveling can be takes a lot of time and it can really disrupt the workflow.  I really just enjoy working  so I'd rather be home making comics than going somewhere and talking about it which is really the truth.  But yeah I do I do like seeing people you know like it's always nice to connect with readers and remind yourself that oh yes real human beings are reading my stuff and it's not just like

54:09
That's always awesome. And it's great to, like I said, socialize with friends in the industry and stuff. All right, Jeff, I got one last question and it goes back to  what we talked about in terms of like how honest you are about, you know, just things that you deal with, Like, you know, anxiety, depression, and you know, how that has  been a part of your journey in comic books. And I guess if you had to give a piece of advice to a fellow comic creator, whether they're aspiring, established or whatnot, that are also dealing with the same things.

54:38
What would you say to them to help them kind of overcome those rough patches that we all have, but in particular folks that are dealing with that extra?  When I was younger,  in my  20s and early  30s, I went through a lot of that and a lot of self-doubt. And I guess what I would say is that you can  find ways to manage it and live with it and still be productive and follow your dreams and achieve them. You  don't have to give up. And as bad as it may seem on any given day,

55:08
tomorrow always comes and you may not feel the way tomorrow that you feel today. So don't give up, you know, knowing that you're not alone and there's other people out there feeling the same way and that there's always a better tomorrow just to hold on. Yeah. Where to live by Jeff. I appreciate that a lot. And I think of that being said, ladies and gents, this is the short box podcast and we just finished talking to Jeff Lemire about his life, his career and his new book, 10,000 ink stains, a memoir.

55:35
can pick it up at your local comic shop. You can pick it up on Amazon and other fine bookstores around you right now. I have links to the book as well as links to Jeff's social media and sub stack in the show, which I highly recommend.  If you enjoy this conversation, if you enjoy  process and behind the scenes, the sub stack is awesome, Jeff. It's great.  So listeners, do yourselves a favor.  Give those a look and follow Jeff online to stay current on all things that he's got going on. Obviously, you just heard the man. He's got so many projects he can't even remember. I think we were up to like six.

56:04
current projects so you can find Jeff Lemire's work everywhere that you get your comic books. Jeff, you've been fantastic. Any parting words or shameless plugs before we wrap up? No, man, I'm good. Yeah, try to check out Minor at Kana if you haven't. It's sort of my passion project right now. And yeah, it was great talking to you. Thanks. Hell yeah. There you have it, Short Bikes Nation. That's the end of the show. Thank you for hanging out. Thanks for being here. And a special shout out if you made it this far.

56:33
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56:58
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57:27
Bo Evers, Brian Brumleaf, Chad Landenberger, Chris Hacker, David Morales, Greg Licktide, Hershel, Mack Jacobson,  issue number three, Brad,  Jay Center, Jeff Fremid, Jerome Cabanatan, Jose Sepulveda,  Justin McCoy, Corey Torgeson,  Matt Godwin, Amanda Maron, Melissa Burton,  Nick Wagner,  Ryan Isaacson, Steven Gannett, T-Mix,  The Wait For It Podcast, Tony A. Uppie,  Trey Namo,  Walter Gantt,

57:56
And last but not least,  Warren Evans. Big shout outs to the patrons.  And with that being said, that's it. That's what I got for you this time. Thanks for listening. Tune in next week for another episode.  And most importantly, take care of yourselves. Read a good comic and continue to make mine and yours short box. I'll catch you soon. Peace.

58:24
I did see on your sub stack that  I guess you've already seen the Superman movie. would love to How'd you like it? I did. I liked it a lot.  Yeah, I really did. I thought it was,  it really kind of captured what I always liked about DC, which was like crazy super science and just sort of everything was like the world itself was a little less grounded in reality and a little more over the top, but the characters are still playgrounded, you know? And so yeah, I really enjoyed

58:52
I saw that you also shared your short story that you did, the art and writing. I got to go track that down. Where was that in? Was it just in a backup issue? It was like an anthology they did. It was probably like 2013. I think it was called Adventures of Superman. I think they were like digital shorts that originally and then they would they would  collect them as a. Yeah, it was like a short, short. A bunch of shorts like they put three or four into an issue.

59:20
Okay, hell yeah, I'm gonna have to track that down. But yeah, I totally agree. Superman was like watching a live action Silver Age comic like come to life. It was like really refreshing in just the sense of like how colorful and sometimes like silly it got.  Exactly silly, but so fun.  Yeah, fun's a better word. Yeah. Yeah, you know, it's kind of interesting. We'll see where it goes. Things go with the DC movies, but it seems like what they want to do is  allow each

59:48
project to kind of have its own tone, its own feeling, while keeping the universe consistent, you know, the characters, which is sort of what the comics were always like, you know, whereas for DC, whereas Marvel was always a little more grounded and like it was in New York City, you know, it was in like the quote of the real world, know, so I think it's definitely the right tone that James Gunn's kind of found for it. Obviously he has a love for that stuff too, so. Agreed. And I think that's the other refreshing part is just how much

01:00:16
Like James Gunn, everything he shares online  is like love to the comics. He's giving shout outs to creators. And then I can't tell you how many photos and posts I've seen from other  creators and writers like Mark Waid, Jim Lee, getting invited to go on set to tour the set and  meet the actors. thought that was, I don't know,  to me that goes a long way. And it feels good to have someone like James Gunn kind of be the spokesperson and  also bringing  comics along with it.

01:00:45
Yeah, I totally agree. It's, it's refreshing and it's nice to have sort of a true sort of  fan of the material and it gets it in control and it really appreciates the comics in a deep way and appreciates the creators. Oh, great.