THE SHORT BOX PODCAST - SBX CLASSIC. An interview with Sanford Greene about Dr. Doom, MF DOOM, and Bitter Root

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intro music plays

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Yo, Short Box Nation, welcome back and thanks for pressin' play today. It's your boy, Badr, comin' at you at the top of the episode to let you know that this episode is a Short Box Classic.

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meaning it's an oldie but a goodie. It was originally released as episode 427 back in May of last year. This is my interview with Sanford Greene. Technically my second interview, because years ago I met him at  Collective Con. It was like in this early  years. It might have been like its first or second year, but I met him at Collective Con. I recorded a really short interview, but this is my first full long form interview with Sanford Greene. We talked about his early career, uh MF Doom. We talked about working with Jonathan Hickman.

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And this was around the time that Doom number one came out, which in my opinion was  one of the best, if not the best comic book that was put out last year. So we obviously talked a lot about Dr. Doom in this interview. If you listen to last week's episode, my interview with Esoteric from Czarface, we brought up Sanford Greene quite a bit. He's, I think, doing something with DC KO. So I've had Sanford Greene. I've had that incredible Doom comic at the top of mind all week. So I figured, why not? Let's go ahead and drop it again as a short box classic, just in case.

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anyone miss it the first time around. Now, over on the Patreon, patreon.com slash the short box, I did drop a brand new bonus episode featuring none other than Drew himself. That's right, we finally found time to hop on the mics and talk about how his move to Denver is going. We talked about the, we caught up on the comics we've been reading. We also talked about the new Kith in Marvel versus Capcom drop from this past weekend. So a little bit of, a little bit of everything in that episode. That's over on patreon.com slash the short box.

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And speaking of Patreon, this month's comic book giveaway, which is a new thing for the Patreon. I've been trying to do monthly comic book giveaways. They're pretty much free to everyone. You don't even need to be a paying member of the Patreon. You just need to make a Patreon account to take part in those, but they're super easy. But this month, I've got an epic prize up for grabs. It is an IDW comic book bundle. And if I do say so myself, it's a pretty epic prize.  It features some exclusive IDW merch that I got from New York Comic Con. It includes some New York Comic Con variants and a signed copy.

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of Beneath the Trees Where Nobody Sees Volume One, signed by Patrick Horvath. So if you wanna take part in the comic giveaway, or listen to the brand new bonus episode with Drew, head on over to patreon.com slash the short box. And while I got you, I might as well make this a perfect shameless plug trifecta and plug the new merch drop, all right? New short box merch is here. I'm talking about new shirts,  long sleeves, and for the first time ever, hoodies. That's right, you can get a short box hoodie.

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over at theshortbikestore.biggartel.com. I'm taking pre-orders for this new drop because I'm only printing what is pre-ordered and I'm going to stop taking pre-orders probably this Friday. So if you want in on the new merch, on the new designs, go to theshortbikestore.biggartel.com or click the link in this episode. Show notes to place your pre-order. And I know I gave you a lot all at once, but there's links in these show notes. So check that out if you're interested in any of this stuff or if you're just waiting for me to shut up so this episode can start. Well, here you go. Here's my interview with Sanford Green.

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I hope you eh

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lately. Like seriously, congrats on all the success.  Oh, thanks. Thanks. And you know, speaking about being on the road,  was today years old learning that the reason why I've seen you at every HeroesCon that I've been to, about, I think I've been to like three, four, five now, is because you're one state away from North Carolina and in Charlotte where HeroesCon takes place. You're in South Carolina, right? South Carolina, but not even just one state away, man. I'm like maybe an hour. Oh, wow. Give or take.

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I'm right there on the border of North Carolina. So it's not not too far at all. And it's in the backyard, if you will. Yeah. I can't help but notice.  And this is for if you're watching YouTube, you're seeing the same thing I'm seeing. And I can't help but notice your background. looks like we're in your office here. But I see you've got a spinner rack. I mean, you got some awesome issues on there. I see the Rick Remender Uncanny uh Rick Remender Uncanny X-Force issue, a GI Joe issue. But my eyeballs immediately went to

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This collab, what is that? Uncanny X-Men number, hard to tell, which I know is a Jim Lee cover. Yeah, that one right there. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's 275. 275, yeah. That's a pretty popular issue. Well, I gotta ask then, are you caught up on X-Men 97? Uh, no. Oh, Sanford, you're breaking my heart. Don't spoil it for me. I did get to episode five, which is the one. That's Oh, that is the one. That is the one.

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That is the one that changed. Yeah, that's the red wedding of That's the red wedding. That's a good example of what that episode represents.  that was,  When I saw, you you try to avoid all the spoilers online. Which is not easy of this show, right? It's not easy. um I was pretty successful at that, but I will say I kind of knew.

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it would be that character because I saw a few attributes to the character, but I did not know of how it would all transpire. And uh that part was  pretty, pretty powerful stuff. Yeah. And I appreciate you  practicing  spoiler free as much as I want to just like go off and start going on how good it was. uh But overall, it sounds like, you enjoying it? Like, is it bringing back any memories of  X-Men comics you've picked up and things like that?

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Um, yeah, absolutely enjoying it, man. Um, actually, uh, shout outs to, uh, chase Conley, who's,  uh, one of the directors,  uh, I've known that cat  since he was up and coming.  Um, he's now arrived.  I would say safely, he's pretty incredible,  uh, illustrator artists, uh, in his own right. And to see that he's able to now, um, for the most part spearhead the, the, uh

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the look and the direction that this uh animation is going is pretty awesome. uh Also, there's a few other  folks that I know that have worked on the series. So it's kind cool to kind of have  a  backseat or not necessarily a backseat, but kind of a behind the scenes  look  to know what  they've worked on and how it all

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transpired as pretty special stuff. Do you recall like your earliest memory or your earliest art memory? Do you have something that sticks out to you? Like, do you remember the first drawing or illustration you did that you were like, oh, this is not half bad. I think I'm gonna go ahead and pursue this as a, you know, as a job. Wow. I can share this story of when I was, it wasn't my first art memory, but it was definitely one that

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stood out to me in terms of the significance of it. And that is  when I think it was third grade, fourth grade, somewhere around that time,  I participated in this  art contest for oh having a safe Halloween.  This is during the time where there was big campaigns on  just not taking candy from strangers.  think that that's honestly where the  model came from.

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was during that time period, oh just watching out. Whatever  the theme was overall, it was about safe, safety. Most kids did  just a single illustration, but  again, this is the third grade, I think. I was already  inundated with comic books  and  I tried to draw my own comic. I did  a short comic and submitted this comic to...

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uh for the contest and the judges didn't believe I did it. Oh, wow. They thought it might have been uh someone older and because they just didn't think someone would try to this young would try to put together something that quote unquote advanced. They had me come to, I guess, the place where they  did the judging  for the contest and they had me draw. They had me draw characters that I created.

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And me drawing the characters that I created  just to see.  And that honestly happened because my art teacher at the time,  Deborah Burrell, she was my elementary uh teacher, but she also was an artist and she saw that I had that interest. And so she called my mom.  She was very upset because  she was like, I can't believe these people aren't believing that you did it, but if you can, can you come?

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you have the time come down to, I guess, the local  town hall. Can you  do uh a demonstration for them? And so I did did I did a demonstration,  you know, for for these folks. And yeah, that was  a moment where I thought oh I was like, OK, I might have something. Oh, for sure. Little. Yeah. Yeah. Like  growing up  and, you know, being just a complete

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nightmare in school. One of my biggest fears was having my mom being called to the school ah because I knew that it would just mean automatic. I'm getting an asshole when I get home. If my mom has to come to the school, it's a wrap. I'm done. But I can only imagine the confusion and maybe anger she'd have if she had to be called to the town hall.  Right. mean, look, she I mean, the way that my  my teacher was explaining it to her. I mean, she was calm, but she was also like, can you believe this? I can't believe. And so my foot.

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you know, shout outs to my mom  for having  enough awareness to realize that this could be something important. She could, you know, like you said, I don't have time to do that. got, you know,  luckily it was after hours. It was after work. was like six in the evening,  but still you're home or you're you just got off work and you got dinner to make whatever, you know, and but for some reason  she had the I guess the weather though to take me

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down there.  I don't think I've ever shared that story before. So it's pretty wild. I appreciate the exclusive then. Yeah, you got got an exclusive. you know, shout outs to mom. We're recording this on on Wednesday, May 9th. Sunday will be Mother's Day. So big shout outs to your mom and all the moms out there.  Mm hmm. Growing up, what was art like in your household? Like was there anyone else  in your family or maybe in your friend circle that were like artistically talented or or could you point to maybe you mentioned like you already inundated comic books where there

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artists that you were maybe really inspired by young and maybe like you were trying to mimic or maybe their style found a way into yours early on? um Yes, to all of that. uh was influenced by a lot of  what I saw  Saturday morning cartoons obviously  was a big impact.  had a family member who was  a uh fashion designer in New York.  I met him once. um

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He wasn't very friendly.  I just remember that. I you know, I guess he he's a fashion designer and ah obviously he was older. So uh I just didn't have ah any connection outside of that from  family in terms of that aspect of it.  In terms of influences, absolutely. You know, just  what I saw  on television, you know, again, Saturday morning cartoons was a huge influence. And of course,

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I connected  the dots  to  what I saw on television  and how I discovered comics.  The comics were  at that time you could get them, you could have still gotten them at drugstores. The comic shops had just started, but  you know, they weren't anywhere near where I lived. But I saw those comics and I connected the dots to ah how those comics and those characters were the same.

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characters that you saw that I saw on television that blew my mind because I didn't I  thought the cartoons  were kind of this this thing on its own and there wasn't anything connected to it maybe toys  but the comic side was just  completely  brand new. Really quick what were some of those what were some of those cartoons you were watching or what were some of the comic books in your life at that time?

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uh The cartoons, know,  the mainstays, the uh Spider-Man, Amazing Friends,  the Super Friends were kind of, they were on the way out. Anime started to creep in  just a little. You had those cartoons that were influenced by anime, like the Thundercats, and of course Transformers.

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And yeah, you know, I started to look for the comics that had a lot of that kind of aesthetic, uh lots of characters, lots of action. So that  obviously X-Men is probably the greatest through line to  that type of aesthetic. They resembled the most  to the anime uh aesthetic, if you will.  Very  grounded, uh high level uh action.

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So those are the ones that I gravitated towards. Now, as far as like artists at the time that you were seeing in these comics, you're bringing up X-Men. So I'm assuming it was probably around the John Byrne, Chris Claremont era? Yep. OK. Was there any other artists that you were really impressed by or really influenced by early on?

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Um, from the comic side, uh, definitely, uh, shortly after discovering the, uh, John Burns and the,  uh, artists of that nature, Michael Golden became,  uh, someone that I gravitated towards.  And, um,  shortly, actually it's kind of reversed. I started to  get into  Tom McFarlane and Jim Lee and those guys and they

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refer to their influences a lot uh towards  Art Adams  and Michael Golden. So I went back and researched those guys and I ate it up.  I mean, look, Robert Liefeld was huge coming up as well because I saw the Art Adams influence in what he was doing.  yeah, huge impact around that time.

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I'm going to fast forward a little just because I want to make sure we have time to talk about Doom. But do you recall what was your first comic book project? Maybe your first professional one or the one that you felt most proud of or the one that of got you in? Because the earliest that I could find was on, or at least on the Marvel site that it credits, is you did interior artwork for a Star Wars Tales comic, number 13.

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It was released in 2002, it features Mace Windu on the cover and it credits you as the interior artist. Is that the earliest comic work you've done or is there anything earlier than that? There's things earlier than that, but I don't want to mention that stuff. You might go find it. You might go find it and put it out there. It so, it leaves it better than what I could possibly ever do. Oh, well.

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I guess when you hear Star Wars, that particular issue, like do any memories come from that particular issue? Star Wars, Tales Number 13? Just the fact that Star Wars was making  its return to  the big screen. So that was huge. And of course, Mace Windu being a Jedi  and he's black. um All of those things were huge. um As a matter of fact,  I...

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thought about a cool idea for a new uh story that I would like to tell. oh I'm not as well versed in the Star Wars mythos,  you know, if you will, but yeah, that time was pretty, pretty huge. I knew that those touchstones  were very important around that time and to be able to tell a story.  I can't look at the art, but it was pretty awesome.

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It's pretty awesome to know that I had a, and that was honestly, there wasn't much  before that.  Really maybe one or two things,  but there were things that were my pinups. did some work with, uh actually I did some work with Transformers. uh When Dreamwave, think Dream, yeah, I remember those guys. Yeah, remember that was a studio that kind of,

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got a lot of the folks that are kind of painstakes  right now in the industry, that was some of their first work. I remember, I think Mark Brooks had  his first work in there.  Man, there's so many, I guess, indie publishers from that early  2000s that are no longer here, but those covers still, I  can close my eyes now and vividly recall going through

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short boxes of Transformer comics, Thundercats comics,  all of these  80s  cartoon IP comics that are interestingly enough seeing a whole new renaissance today. Thundercats is a new comic series now. Transformers and Daniel Warren Johnson is killing it. So it's interesting to see how those IPs have bounced around and where they're at now and that nostalgia factor bringing everyone back to it. Oh yeah, absolutely.

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It seems to happen in like 20 year cycles, I guess. Good way. Yeah, good point. It's pretty cool. Now  you mentioned uh having a story to tell in the Star Wars space. And if I'm not mistaken and correct me I'm wrong, that's kind of where Doom number one comes from, right?  This was a story that you had in mind that you wanted to tell.  And I understand that you reached out to Jonathan Hickman  about hopping on there being a co-writer.  And, you know,  we get the project here.

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ah I want to hear, guess, like if you want to fill in any of the cracks in terms of like how this story came to you. But while you're thinking of that, if you don't mind, I want to read the solicitation, just a level set for anyone that is maybe  that hasn't seen the solicitation or doesn't know about it here. But  this official solicitation for Doom number one reads, in the near future, Doom alone must save the Marvel universe. Legendary creators Jonathan Hickman and Sanford Green send Dr. Doom on a journey unlike any has undertaken before.

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Valeri riches at a side doom goes on a quest to harness more power than any human has ever wielded before in order to try to stop Galactus from bringing about the death of the universe. Do you want to fill in anything? Do you want to add anything else to that solicitation? guess, I guess from your, from your perspective, how did the story come about? How long have you been sitting on this story for? What was the catalyst to finally get it out into the world? Um, one of the things that I realized as a kid, I was fascinated with

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uh The comics that had lots of characters in them, I was  of course X-Men, Avengers,  and to some degree, the Fantastic Four. ah And then there was this book called Secret Wars  that really  opened the door for me in terms of like  seeing all these heroes come together. um And you could argue that that was kind of the first crossover to some degree.

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to where you had every character  from every part of the Marvel Universe coming together. And Doom was at the center of this thing. And so  reading that as a kid, again, kind of reverse engineering, I go back and I try to find other comics that had this character,  Dr. Doom,  and it was like, you know, uh shooting, you know, uh fish in a barrel. It was like, was just, he was everywhere.

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And I'm like, wow, how come, you know, again, I was still young, but in my head, I'm like, I know ah all the heroes, but this this guy seems to be  just as important as  the heroes. And this is in my mind as a  nine, 10 year old. Right.  And ever since then, I just had this fascination with  the character with Doom, because he has touched every corner of the Marvel universe, ah even with the X-Men.

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You think about  their greatest adversaries, Doom was right there at the early stages of their encounters with him.  So he's not just a fantastic war villain or  what have you,  but he is like the Marvel's quintessential adversary. Not to mention the fact that he's  a leader, monarch, if you will,  and oh how that affects  the  Marvel universe. oh He's on the same level in terms of

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of regalness as a Black Panther with Wakanda. You really think how he's revered in his own  Le Veria. So it's like there's so many different pieces, not to mention, you know,  I say this  jokingly, but it really is a powerful thing with all of this,  this reverence that you can have this character through his,  his uh regalness, his hubris, his hubris.  He  loves his mama, you know, like there's this  side of him

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that you just get a hint of when you see his connections to his mother, something that 99 % of us  can relate to. We can't relate to being a monarch, but we can relate to looking out for moms. um So that part even made me just think, what is it about that  that changes him or turns him into, for lack of better words, to uh his mother's son versus being one of

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wanting to be the  dictator of the entire universe. If he could make that happen, that's what he would do. So again, all these questions, all these things that I'm gathering over the years.  one day I just thought to myself, man, this should be a story about Doom and all of this stuff. Like this kind of bringing it all together.  Obviously, you know, there's a million stories about Doom. But what about

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these things and making it  kind of come all together, it can be the type of thing that could bring the entire universe to its knees  on some level,  or it could possibly save the universe. Then I discovered, not discovered, but then I started thinking, but what if it all happens  all together where  it causes destruction, but it's the very thing that could save the universe.  This character, Doom.

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He's probably one, if not the only character that has that dichotomy, if you will,  because he's not completely  evil. He has those tendencies, but then those tendencies  are curved and bent into some kind of honorable method, if you will, that he goes about his business. you,  you as a reader, you, kind of.

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cosign to some of that, you know, like, okay, I can understand where you have to  lay, you know, all right, that's a little too excessive over here, but over here, okay, so there, again, this is beautiful mixture of,  that twists  this character in ways that very few characters have. I think you described Dr. Doom excellent. Yeah, that was, was perfectly said. He is, he's such a nuanced character.  And I think it's safe to say he is easily a top, I know, I think it's safe to say Dr. Doom is a top.

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three supervillain. And if we're talking just Marvel, I'm talking like across comic books. And I think if we're talking just Marvel comics, it'd be very hard pressed to find anyone that's taken the number one spot from him.  So it's cool to hear that you've had that this story has been kind of lingering in your mind for this many years. And it's based on all these questions that you've had just kind of compounded and compiled  throughout the years and as a fan. And I guess I'm going to  toss you a very, I don't know, a layup question here, but.

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I feel like I know the answer, but what was the inspiration to reach out to Jonathan Hickman to get him to help and co-write the story as well? Oh, I just wanted to give him a shot. mean, he's trying. I thought you were going to say, if you would have replied with Botter, did you read Secret Wars from 2015? Do I need to say less? If you were to just say that, it would have been good. Yeah. Well, that's the answer that you were expecting, right? Of course, that's part of why I wanted him because that

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that story, that arc was so such a uh impactful  story. Like a modern classic. Absolutely.  look, I've known Jonathan for a long time and we're from the same neck of the woods. uh And uh we've often had  conversations uh about coming together at some point and working on something. uh And this happens to be a thing where I was trying to write it  and there were

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So many things, so many uh avenues I wanted to go down and I started feeling like I was spreading  the story too far and I needed to bring it together.  And uh I was talking to Will Moss ah and he said, well, do you think you need some help? Maybe bring in someone that can help you kind of pull this together. And I'm like, oh, I got the perfect person. that's Jonathan. If he's  willing to do it.  I know his schedule is absolutely insane. I reached out to him and uh

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you know, pretty much without question. was like, yeah, man, let's do it. And there's something that's really cool. And I shared this on other interviews that he's Jonathan Hickman, right? I mean, this guy is multi award winning that I think he's won a bunch. And even if he hasn't, he He should, he should. I mean, the guy is the architect of the Marvel universe at this point, right?

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Damn sure feels like it. To me, Johns Hickman is someone that if I see his name, it's like instant buy. And if it's on a Marvel title, it's like this is the bar is here, you know, audio listeners, it's very high. Right. And I say this, you know, with all sincerity, he really was very adamant to let me tell the story. He could have easily. Look, this is my first

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foray into the actual writing side of things.  And it was a bit intimidating because  he's now in the room and his  thoughts and his  opinions  or what have you can be,  you know,  it can make or break you to some degree.  And  but every turn he was very mindful of all of those things concerning me. He thought it was a great story and he wanted me to tell the story. He said, OK, what else do you have in mind for

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this  certain moment in the story, uh I will give him and this I'm just sharing vague because it's a lot of things that could uh spoil, but  I would give my thoughts  on how I wanted to tell it or give my  version of  the story. And he says to me, okay, cool. All right, I'll just follow your lead. And I'm like, wow,  that was such a,  it was very, uh

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I guess the word is humbling, it was, it was also, it shows me why he is where he is  in many ways, um because  he knows when to be assertive, but he also knows when, okay, you might have a better direction. I'll just take a back seat. I'm not going to let my reputation or what have you get in  the way of  you really.

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doing the thing that you have the desire to do. That's been probably the, I said it just before, this collaboration has been one of the greatest experiences I've ever had in this industry. know, and it's saying a lot, I've worked with a lot of great folks, but this was pretty awesome. I finished this story and they wanted to do,

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The story got to be so rich that people got excited at Marvel and they wanted to turn it into a mini. And I said, you know what? I think I'm good. don't want to... There was something in me that said, you know what? Knock it out of the park and drop the mic and walk away. If you will, if that can be expressed that way.

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No, for sure. You actually answered one of my questions because I mean, no spoilers, obviously, but it ends in a way that I mean, it's no secret. It's a one shot, it's an oversized one shot. To me, it's a couple of pages shy of being a graphic novel, but it ends in a way that is, you know, it leaves the door open. And I was going to ask if you had more story to tell or more story that's set in this universe. But I really respect that you took the artistic high road.

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And cause I mean, let's be real. If it's Marvel asking you to make it a mini, they probably, you know, backed up a money truck. Like we can make this a mini, but I respect that, you know, you've told a story you wanted to tell  and you know, you're going to let that breathe. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, and let's be honest, uh,  Marvel, you know, or any of the big, you know, companies, the corporate, uh, companies, they, they, they have invested interests from, from that side, uh, monetarily.  Um,

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So it's not, there's no, you know, there's no secret about that. And you can respect that. um And you can kind of, if they, you can kind of fall into that, into that, that, that, that direction. If you're not, if you're just thinking in that term,  you can see, wow, this could be this big thing that could be,  but I'm like, you know, let me, let me.

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just take a step back and  understand that, you know, what do I really, really, really want from this thing versus what is kind of hitting me right in, you know, on the surface level, um that immediate thing. um you know,  trust me, it took a minute to get my heart, get my heart and my head in the right  place. you know.

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Yeah, look, and I'm glad you clarified that this is your first like, you know, real and official foray into writing. I don't want to misspeak. had I figured as much but I didn't want to misspeak. Do you want to do more writing like or do you prefer, you know, doing the artwork and things like that? Because that is one thing about this issue that I noticed is you're involved in pretty much every phase, you know, from the the cover art, the interior art, co-writing, even co-colorist as well. Like what was the biggest

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I guess what's the biggest lesson you've learned from writing this issue? Like, do you have a new respect or a new perspective on what goes into writing? I definitely want to and will be writing more. uh I do think that uh Hickman told me this years ago, and this is another reason why I wanted to work with him because he said, dude, you can  write. And I'm like, uh

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what are you talking about? You got a story, everyone has a story. Just  start writing and you put it down on paper and without, know, boring you with details. He kind of gave me these these touchstone points that it just made sense. Oh, yeah, that is kind of true. um Obviously,  you need to learn, you know, how to tie things together and  all those things that make a writer, you know, one of the,

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make a writer a good writer.  That's why Jonathan is such a incredible writer is that he can plant a seed from something that happened five years ago and oh bring it  full circle now. And the multi-layers, right? Like the layers to his storytelling and  the most  minutia thing has got all this nuance and meaning. you're like,  I think I might need a guidebook  for this comic book.

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Right. And that's the thing that's kind of cool. That's why I wanted to work with him, because I wanted to see how he how he processes stuff. And truth be told, it's really simple, um which makes it very complex  because he's you know, he he can he he just  sit, you know, whatever the story you want to tell. He doesn't go ask questions about it.  And once he gets an understanding, he's like, oh, OK, all right. So let's just.

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Go. And so that's the first layer of understanding of writing is that, all right, what kind of story do I want to tell? All right, let's just go. That doesn't necessarily mean it will end the way that I'm thinking currently, but you have to start it. And I think that's the most important thing anyone could do. Awesome. I want to shift to talking about the art because

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Sanford, if I'm being real and I say this with full respect, this might be some of the best artwork I've ever seen from you. It is insanely good. I mean, there's a lot of different things I could talk about the art. I'm going to just pick two right now. The amount of characters that you pack into this issue, I don't think he missed anyone in the Marvel Universe. The Marvel Universe is giant. I feel like you pretty much got 80 % of them in here.

35:53
It was awesome to see your interpretation of the characters I've never seen you draw before, to see like the cameos and you've got some amazing like two page, almost damn near four page spread. think if you were to really like, you know, play it out flat, it'd be like a four or five page spread. And then the action too, like it is so bombastic. is, it's like a great blend of like a poignant story that gets you thinking about Doom, his place in the world and even Galactus to a large extent as well.

36:23
But the action in it, is so fucking dope. And I'm sorry to curse it, know, for lack of better. It's just dope. It's fucking dope. it. Appreciate And I got to ask, because I got some heavy, because I'm hearing you talk about your early influences with anime and cartoons, and you brought up Dragon Ball. And that is one place my mind immediately went to reading this. There's a lot of big energy blasts, and the fight choreography and sequences had me thinking, like, I wonder if Sanford was watching Dragon Ball Z in the background.

36:51
while he was drawing this, like oh what were you consuming or  looking to, or what do you feel like crept its way in as far as inspiration? Like am I far off thinking like the  manga and anime influences there? um Definitely, man. oh I wasn't watching  Dragon Ball, but I was definitely making the Dragon Ball uh sound effects, I guess, in my mind.  Like we all tend to do. Yeah, like we all tend to do, you know, that whole

37:21
You know, like as a kid, you're in the toy, you're in your toy box and you get the two characters colliding, clashing, and you're making all the bombastic sound effects and what have you. That's honestly where it was for me. Yeah, just,  you know, I was a kid  in my mind and like what's the most insane thing that you can think of that would be so cool just to convey on paper and that's where it all went.

37:51
Yeah,  it's a fun comic book. It's a gorgeous comic book to look at. ah I feel like I've been preaching about it all week because you were kind enough to send me the advance review. And I was at my comic shop yesterday ah talking to the owner. And I was like, look, when you get this Doom issue, be prepared for it to fly off the shelf. Because once people read it and it gets out, it's going to be major. So I'm curious, how long did it take?  Because I mean,  like I said, you draw so much. It is such a uh packed.

38:20
It never feels like  claustrophobic or too much. It's like the right amount. And I think the story warrants it. I think Hickman says in a press release, we're dealing with, I'm paraphrasing, but we're dealing with a big character and the story is really big. um Was it a difficult task to do all the interior artwork?  What are we talking like timeline wise? How much time do you think you spent on the entire project? Man, honestly,  I,  so behind me, I have my sketchbook.

38:49
In the sketchbook, I tried to sketch every Marvel character I can think of. I went through the I have my encyclopedia handbook or the Marvel universe. I went through that. Of course, Secret Wars. I went through all these big stories that had a lot of characters. And I just started to I just started jotting down all the

39:18
characters from different corners of the Marvel universe, everything from the street level to the, you know, inner planet, the cosmic, all the cosmic deities. I once said, honestly, that's how the story even started for me as far as writing the story. I just started writing characters down and I'm like, OK, this group of characters will be great for this scene and this group of characters to be great for that scene. And it all started, at least that was the basic framework.

39:47
And then I started putting in oh the  more oh nuanced  parts to it, especially with uh Doom and Valeria and their relationship. Because  ultimately, yes, you have Galactus  and yes, he's wrecking shop and  he's this force of nature, this galactic  hurricane that just keeps building from point two,  from two points, 2.0 to

40:16
3.0 to 5.0, he just gets more and more  devastating.  the greater the devastation, the greater the stakes  with all these characters. So you have all this stuff going on. And right in the middle of that  is Doom and Valeria having these, this uncle  niece,  you know, uh connection that helps  make sense of why Doom

40:45
is able to go about the mission. He's reminded in a weird kind of way. She admires the fact that he has the hubris that he has.  And so even in a moment of.

41:03
Unclarity,  he begins to be uh reminded  of who he is. That part was cool. I will say as much as I loved all the action and the cameos, the  quiet moments between Valeria  and Doom, man, you nailed it, right?  I feel like anytime those two are in a comic book together,

41:28
I really try to pay attention. I really judge that interaction in a book  on the dialogue. They have such a unique way of the way they converse with one another. You've got this  monarch, this super villain, and then you've got this young child that's a genius.  And I think you get  in the hands of a  really good writer, you get some amazing dialogue and magic  if you know how to handle them. I give you props. Ewan Hickman definitely brought

41:54
You guys brought your A game on even like those quiet moments and like that character moments between the two. Yeah. Thanks, man. In terms of Galactus, this is probably the most dangerous Galactus we've seen in a minute. You know, like not to spoil anything. It's, know, we're seeing Galactus. I think you guys described in the book, like this is a Galactus consumed by the hunger. Like instead of being on the defense and, you know, taking his time, preserving his energy, he's on the hunt. He's actively, you know, destroying planets and worlds and

42:23
You know, he's got a larger uh scheme in mind.  And  I find it funny that 15 minutes before we were supposed to record the news  of  Galactus being casted in the new Fantastic Four movie was announced.  For anyone that maybe missed the boat, Ralph Innocent  is being cast as Galactus. He's from Harry Potter fame. He is an English actor. And he's got this amazing, like really gravely deep

42:50
like Yorkshire accents. think I'm going to be curious how they have him play Galactus. But I don't even know if I have a question for that other than I'm pretty excited for like, as the casting for this movie comes out is getting me more hype. When you think of, I guess to bring it back to Doom, I'm sorry, I brought up Galactus just to subvert it to go back to Doom. I really want to hear this because I'm hearing you talk about your affinity for Doom. And I'm thinking to myself like, are...

43:16
Where does my mind go? What images and covers does my mind go when I think of Dr. Doom? And there's two specifically. I think it's because you brought up Secret Wars. ah I think about that iconic cover  of him on issue 10, where  his suit and clothes are tattered and  he's got his  energy  blast in a hand. And I think he's about to fight the Beyonder in that. And the second one, maybe because we're talking about Hickman, is I'm thinking of that iconic panel where Dr. Doom, God, Emperor Doom,

43:46
rips Thanos' skull, know, spine out of his body.  I want to hear, I've tossed a question to you. Like, what are some iconic or images that come to mind when you think of Doctor Doom that have just kind of been living in your head, you know, rent free all this time? um Honestly, you can find them,  those scenes on the cover to  Doom. That's right. You have a lot of Easter eggs on that cover. I forgot there's like the different moments and iconic. Yeah, this really is a love. I think I heard you describe it. This comic is a love letter to Doctor Doom.

44:15
That's exactly what it is, man. Yeah, him issue 10 of Secret Wars that cover. That was the cover that made me really, you know, and I'm young, I'm still what, 10 years old, but I'm looking at this cover and I'm like, I've never seen a cover like that before where this character, I'm like, you sure he's a villain? He seems so, but it was again, it wasn't about

44:43
good or evil, was about him and his defiance and his hubris  and how he  is  so resolute  on his objective. A God can barely kill this guy, know, which is, you know, oh at um that time,  know, Beyonder, you could say  was one of those  characters. uh

45:12
most powerful characters of that time. he's standing toe to toe with this guy or, you know, at least, you know, on one knee, you know, everyone else is dead, but he's still holding on.  And honestly, that was that that image was  was kind of the image that sparks this whole story  to some degree. Like what?  How could  he out of all the characters in the Marvel universe be the one still standing?

45:42
What is it about this character that allows him to still be standing?  power is magic, whatever, but there's something deeper. oh And that's how he perceives himself and how he views himself. That's more powerful than any superpower, if you will. That is a superpower. Like, no other character really has that,  not on that level.

46:08
You know,  maybe Namor, he might be the closest,  but even with him, he can go off on the, you he gets distracted. He gets distracted a lot.  I think that word defiance is excellent to describe Dr. Doom. That defiance and an insane  willpower, like the willpower that he's got in that focus. And I think you could also maybe, you you could definitely attribute a lot of those attributes to someone like Namor, but I think what Dr. Doom's got is just,

46:38
He's got cool point, like infinite cool points. It's something about every, know, Dr. Doom really is the whole package, you know, attitude, background, you know, there's that empathetic factor you brought up, but his love of his mom, you know, even went to hell for her, you know, like  his power set, he's a genius, he's got technology, he's also into, you know, sorcery and dark magic. Like he really is the complete package.  And I feel like it's safe to say that you have been inside of the mind of this character, probably for like weeks, if not months, maybe even years now.

47:07
And I think I've got a question for you that I think you might be the perfect person to answer. I mentioned that I went into my local comic shop last week. The shop is called Gotham City Limit. They're a full disclaimer. They're a sponsor of this show. They're big supporters of what we do here. And obviously they love comics as much as we do, if not more. And the owner of the shop's name is Ben Kingsbury. I allow him every now and then to send in voicemails anytime I have a creator on. And I asked him to send in one for you today, Sanford. And I think

47:37
you're going to get a kick out of this question as someone that's been, you know, that at this point you could probably confidently say you're a Dr. Doom expert. So I'm going to queue this up for you. Hey, Stanford, Ben K, Gotham city limit, Jacksonville, Florida. Thanks so much for taking some time to answer my very, very important question.  So we love to rock some AC DC while we're comic buying down here at the limit. And one of the reasons is because of the overwhelming success of the original Marvel cinematic universe.

48:06
When we think of Iron Man, we now think of Thunderstruck by ACDC. I think Doctor Doom has that potential, so here's my question. In the MCU, future potential Doctor Doom,  Iron Man is to Thunderstruck as Doctor Doom is to what potential song? I'll leave you to answer. Thanks so much for making awesome comics. We couldn't do it without you.  And remember, short box nation,  always take it to the limit.

48:35
There we go. That was Ben K of Gotham City Limit. Just to recap that question, maybe give a little more context too. If you walk into Gotham City Limit any time of the day, I don't care if you're there first thing in the morning at 11 o'clock or you're there at 6 p.m. as they're closing, 99.999 % chance Ben's got ACDC playing. He has got me trained to where as I'm going to the shop, I immediately start humming Thunderstruck. I've heard more ACDC.

49:02
in my lifetime than maybe anyone else on the planet. And I can only imagine how many times Ben has heard that song. So  I guess what would be the song for Dr. Doom, if ACDC, Thunderstruck is to  Iron Man, thanks to the movies.  Oh my gosh, man. Wow.  So there's, I have two lanes of thought in terms of music wise. I immediately started thinking about anything Black Sabbath for some reason, um because of just the tone.

49:32
tone of it is dark and brooding and  it's not  high level it's just kind of like this low you know it can be high level you know  energy  but there's something about uh black Sabbath music  that sticks out to me in terms of the sound and that can be any of the touchstone  songs  I'm not as well verse into metal as I am to you know hip-hop or what have you

50:00
Now, there is a song  by MF DOOM called Super Villain. Just look it up. It's heavy drums  and just  thumping drums  behind and  the piano sound is very  aggressive in the samples. oh So yeah, those two.  As a matter of fact, I think I used that MF DOOM track to promote some stuff on Instagram.

50:29
You brought up MF Doom and I'm not going to spoil it for any other hip hop heads that go pick up Doom number one that's in shops right now. Just know that Sanford, I see you. I tip my hat for the opening line of that comic book.  And for anyone that goes to pick up Doom number one, when you go pick up that issue and you recognize the opening line of that book,  whoever sends me an email first and tells me what song Sanford uh used in that, I'll send you guys a free comic.

50:58
And I just remembered the question I wanted to ask you and why I brought up that Galactus casting. So they haven't announced the  casting for Doom yet. And I think it's safe to say that that is what a lot of people are waiting on is who are they going to cast for Dr. Doom? And I'm curious if you had the opportunity to cast anyone, anyone that you wanted to, your personal casting, who are some names that come to mind in terms of actors that could portray Dr. Doom, right?

51:27
It's kind of, he's already been cast as a character, as Magneto, actually. Oh gosh, what's the actor's name? Michael Fassbender or Ian McKellen? Yeah. Oh, Michael Fassbender. I thought he would have been great, and obviously he was the greatest, Magneto as well. But he was the first person I thought of, and this was a while ago. This is back when the ill-fated Fantastic Four film.

51:57
Which one? The one Michael B. Jordan or the ones with Jessica Alba on them? The Jessica Alba one. That that  time. it was like, oh my God, uh can we get someone outside of the  WB uh actors, that line of actors from  that time period? They were like the ones that were  picked for all this stuff. And it was just kind of a  odd, campy.

52:26
choice, but you know,  10 years prior, you never thought you would have gotten any of that stuff. uh They say it takes a miracle  to make a film.  I know this firsthand  with all the stuff that's happening with Bitter Root. mean, know, good stuff, but it's a lot of stuff, a lot of things. um But to see all these films uh that's been produced by Marvel  over the last 25 years has been pretty amazing.

52:56
You brought up Bitter Root, we're talking Hollywood. this question, I put this in honor to my man, Walter Gantt, who texted me and said, if you don't ask him about Bitter Root, we're no longer friends. So I got to ask, your pinned tweet on Twitter is one from 2022. And it's an announcement about Bitter Root, Omnibus. You know, it's coming out. You know, it's got a short story that will tie into the family's past history for the next chapter of Bitter Root. What can fans expect from Bitter Root?

53:22
ah Next like is there is it coming back in comic book form? Is there any update on the on the movie? I know you've got you know, uh Brian Coogler and Regina King attached but you know, been it's been at least one or two years since we heard any update you share anything  As far as the film not not much  on that But there there there is a script. We saw the script the script got I think it got approved  a few tweaks here and there  on some things oh but

53:51
In terms of the comic, there will be a comic as well.  The  next generation  will be introduced. um We hope to have some cool stuff to show um by San Diego as to plan.  Actually, there's an image that was floating around, um kind of a redacted image  that was floating around um the last...

54:20
year or so, but that's been updated. We have a really cool promotional poster and some other visuals that we'll use to promote and present at San Diego. yeah, our hope is to have this series come back sometime late this year or very early next year. Oh, wow. Yeah. Hell yeah. That's the plan.

54:49
I think what the series ended in, I think 2018, issue 15 was the last one. And since then, it's been like we've gotten trades and obviously the Omnibus. Are you itching to come back or are you kind of like enjoying the success and the fact, you know, letting people catch up with it and read it and all that? Like, yeah, I mean, how's it been like just to  sit back a little bit and kind of watch it do what it do? Yeah, it's been enjoyable  to see fans appreciate it and get get new fans discovering it oh and seeing it.

55:19
reach these different corners of  fandom. uh It's being taught in schools,  universities,  universities as curriculum,  which is pretty mind boggling to be honest with you.  And so, you know, it's one of those books, but it was honestly one of those books that I felt like, uh especially, unfortunately, to some degree, the times that we're in.

55:47
from a social  standpoint.  And I'll say social, I wouldn't even say political. I think it's just all social  and  that's kind of being heightened through the political scope.  In this space that we're in now,  the book has even more, it resonates even more.  I think oh it's partly why it's been  being used  in schools, institutions right now as a part of

56:17
curriculum. Kind of a cool, semi cool story. I got our book got flagged in Pensacola, Florida. I was like, is there another Pensacola in the country? Of course. I'm sorry, Sanford. It's Florida, man. It's Florida. It's Florida, man. I would be disappointed if we didn't get any kind of flags at this point.

56:44
That means we're doing something if they're  concerned about uh our story. You know what is? It's the damn,  what do they call it in the comic? It's the damn Geno. Geno? Yeah, yeah. Man, real life Geno's at work. Yeah, yeah. I think you'll dig where we're going with that whole concept  in the next arc as well. We took that whole concept  of the Geno uh and we put a little... uh

57:14
We put a little bit of what's happening in our society now, oh or how it's being perceived  now, this country, the history of this country,  how people view this country through the rose colored glasses.  We use a lot of that in the next story arc  to portray oh the next level of threats and monsters  out there. I'm excited now.

57:44
I didn't think I was going to get an answer as far as like a timeline, much less that soon. Definitely signed me up. And I want to share something here. I had read an article where  you were talking about when you were coming up with  Bitter Root,  you and Chuck Brown and David Walker were trying to figure out like how are we going to promote this and getting in front of people.  You specifically were talking about like  having a little bit of hesitance to like go to comic conventions and go the traditional route in the traditional industry. But instead you guys went to,  here you say,

58:14
Instead of a trade show or just conventions, we did interviews on black radio, hip hop radio, DJ Eclipse, Sirius XM, Shade 45. once again, I guess it ties back to the compliment I gave you earlier of like always injecting the spirit of hip hop in there. And I thought this was so, know, it sounded corny saying it, but you know, it is really hip hop, right? Like the fundamental essence of hip hop and like that grassroots and making, you know, thing outside the box and making do.

58:40
What advice would you give to like a comic creator that's trying to get their vision and their story out there and they want to maybe go outside of the box? Like, is there anything that you learned from that experience of, you know, going the non-traditional route that you would pass down to the next generation? I think the biggest thing is that there is an audience  outside of comics that like  stories,  stories that that directly speak to them. oh

59:08
Why we went to those, we went through those outlets is because we,  knew that those outlets had, there was something in our stories that, that was a bridge to that  particular, um, particular group of folks because we,  had stories that, um, that resonated in those spaces.  And we knew that they weren't necessarily connected to.

59:36
the comic space, but they like those stories. We try to educate them  on how there are more stories like that,  like what we're trying to present, but you would have to  pursue them in the space, in the comic  graphic novel space, if you will. So just  trying to educate them  on  what our story is about, but also allowing them to see that they're more

01:00:05
stories that they can pursue. That was kind of the intention  from the beginning, even if it wasn't necessarily that a route just in the fact that we're black creators,  you know,  creating stories  that have diverse characters that alone  sometime can be missed um from that audience because they're  not seeing it per se oh as immediately.  So we try to make it more immediate.

01:00:35
to that space. That's what I said. I've got one more question. think that kind of might piggyback off that and a lot of topics that we were discussing. I know that I couldn't live with myself having you on the show and I not ask about your work on the hip hop covers. Not only did you do two of my favorite ones, which is the extraordinary X-Men, which was homage to De La Soul, Three Feet High and Rising.

01:01:01
but also a really cool deep cut with the all new Hawkeye number one cover you did, which homage one of my favorite albums, Pete Rock and C.L. Smoove, Mecca and the Soul Brother. I don't know if you remember this, but last year in New York Comic Con, you were on a panel with Rob Markman, Billson Kevich,  and I'm drawing a blank on some of the other folks that were on there, but the panel was about  basically the intersection of hip hop and comic books.

01:01:25
And I sat in on that panel and I recorded an episode live from New York Comic Con and I said it was one of the best panel I ever sat on. was like I oh was in heaven. was like, sitting here hearing people talk about comic books and  hip hop.  What music do you listen to when you're creating? What's your top five favorite albums, man?  you have albums that are your go-to, that are your personal favorite? Could you compile them into a top five?

01:01:52
Yeah, you definitely oh made this last question is a doozy. You know, you know, what's interesting is I don't listen to  hip hop as  much  when I'm working as you think I listen to a lot of podcasts, a lot of podcasts, I listen to NPR, um which is uh

01:02:14
It's like the gold standard of podcasting. When I was first trying to get into a podcasting, was like, that was my bar. was like, how are they doing it and then how do I add my flair to it? What are some of the podcasts in your queue? Let's see, 11 O'clock Comics, those guys are good. Off panel, those guys. Well, big shout out to David, yeah. David is cool. War Balloon, the OG, your podcasts. Yeah, I appreciate it. Yeah, so a lot of those types.

01:02:44
And this is not a, I guess this is a bit of a uh self promotion, but I listen to oh Felix. uh I watch his podcast. uh He does this unboxing of live live unboxing of different artists that he represents. That's always fun whenever he does one of those ah blurb without fear that those guys I listen to those guys. Yeah, you know, but I do trust me. I listen to a lot of hip hop, but

01:03:13
It's  not every day per se.  have to be kind of in a place where wherever I'm working on, could  let that play  in the background and enjoy it.  hear you say that you listen to a lot of comic podcasts and I find that interesting because I don't know, I mean, personally speaking,

01:03:32
I am always, I guess, working on the podcast and thinking and talking comics. Like you don't ever get tired of like hearing about  comics and  hearing about the process and all that or? Well, don't get me wrong. It's not the only podcast that I listen to, those are the ones that I tend to listen to  mainly when we're, you know, if we're talking about  comic related stuff. If I listen, it will be those podcasts.  But in terms of just,  I've got so many, I got Complex, the music.

01:04:03
interviews, you know, obviously with all this stuff happening with Kendrick and Drake, I went down the rabbit hole of every interview Kendrick has ever done in the last seven years or so. And it's kind of wild how it's a lot like creating comics. It's like the way he tells the stories about how he creates his music. think all artists kind of think similar, whether it's music or visual. So any kind of process.

01:04:31
ah podcasts, I would say, oh whether it's music or visuals or  whatever, how to sometimes  I can go down a rabbit hole  of uh watching a lot of history. Obviously with Bitter Root, those come in handy listening to those podcasts. A lot of audio books.  I haven't done an audio book in a while.  The last one I did was the biography or well, it's not a biography. So yeah, it is a biography of Jay Dilla. um

01:05:00
Oh, the Dilla Time, the Dilla Time. Yeah, the Dilla Time. Yeah, that's a good one. And that book was pretty fascinating.  I'll give you one recommendation if it's not on your radar. uh Rah Kim put out a book,  Autobiography, I think two years ago. It's like at the top of my to read pile. But I think he also put out an audiobook too. He's reading it. So yeah, I've already  went down, you name it. uh If  especially if it's done by the artist  narrating that makes it even more fascinating with the audiobooks.

01:05:31
Yeah, I'm gonna check that out. mean, considering he's like one of my whatever, top five, 10 favorite rappers, I'm kind of ashamed I haven't read it yet. But  I'll probably get to that next. And if you've never read the Common,  you've probably read the Common. I don't even know what I'm talking about. probably read that book too.  Yeah, yeah. I've been up on a few, a few of those audio books for sure.  Hell yeah. Sanford, I have taken more than enough time for me. I know you got a lot going on. So I'm gonna ask you one last question that hopefully is super easy.

01:06:00
When Doom number one hit shops uh today and people are going out there to pick up the comic book because they heard this interview and they're hype and they want to read this love letter to Dr. Doom, is there anything that you hope that a reader takes from it? Like, is there  an impression that you want them to have or,  you know, not saying that they can't enjoy it and come up with their own thoughts and opinions, but did you have something in mind when you wrote this?  Any, you know, any hopes that you personally have? Like, man, I hope this does XYZ or

01:06:30
gets them to think this. Like you  mentioned earlier, it's a love letter uh to the character Doom. It's a love letter, honestly, to the Marvel Universe. What impacted me  as a young kid growing up when I first uh dove into  the Marvel Universe, especially from the  galactic uh standpoint of it  and the grandness of the Marvel Universe, when we were coming up, there were always those  seminal

01:06:59
moments uh through  a single story. ah The death of Captain Marvel. ah Even to some degree, in many ways,  the Doctor Doom,  Doctor Strange, when he goes to hell to, you know,  triumph and torment. um Just trying to, you know, touch on those  moments through this story uh is what I'm paying homage to.

01:07:27
We have a saying here on the show that when a comic's really good, you know, it's got to respect your time and your wallet. And I think you hit both of those just fine. you know, obviously big shout out to Jonathan Hickman and Richel  Rosenberg for the assist. And I can't recommend that enough to everyone that's tuning in, whether you are a Dr. Doom diehard  or a completely new reader. think Doom number one is a, is a fantastic comic book. It respect your time and your wallet. And it's just one of those one shots that I think people are going to be talking about for a while.

01:07:55
Sanford, I'm gonna have links to your Twitter, all of your social medias in the show notes. I'll also have a preview, some previews to the Doom comic book, or the Doom comic book in the show notes. But is there anything else that you wanna say, anything you wanna plug, or anything that we might have missed? I know, man. I think we covered everything, man, from Doom to ACDC. think there's nothing else to talk about, Thanks to everyone. Thank you, man. Thank you for the support.

01:08:25
Thank you everyone out there.  Thank you again. oh There you have it ShortBikes Nation. That's the end of the show.  Thank you for hanging out. Thanks for being here.  And a special shout out if you made it this far. If you enjoyed this episode and you have some thoughts or comments that you want to share with us, write us at theshortbikesjaxx.gmail.com. And if you really liked this episode,  help us spread the word. Share this episode with a friend or someone you know that loves comics as much as we do.

01:08:53
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01:09:22
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01:09:50
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01:10:19
And most importantly, take care of yourselves, read a good comic and continue to make mine and yours short box. I'll catch you soon. Peace.