Michael Cho is a student of comics: An interview about artistic process, Jack Kirby, and paying it forward - The Short Box Podcast Ep. 488

00:01
In this episode of The Short Box.  I love Kirby to death  and I get Kirby in an artistic way.  He informs a lot of what I do when I do superhero work. The only way that I was able to find a road into doing superhero work for me was for me to uh embrace my Jack Kirby side. That's the stuff that really  turns me on about superhero work. It's an idealized version of superheroes. They're flawed, but they're also they don't quit.

00:30
You know what mean? Captain America takes a licking and keeps on ticking, you know?

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intro music plays

01:00
Yo, Short Box Nation! Hello again. Welcome back and thanks for pressin' play today. If you're brand new, welcome to the show. I'm your host, Badr Milligan, and this is the Short Box Podcast, the comic book talk show that brings you the best conversations about your favorite comics with the people who put their blood, sweat, and tears into makin' them.  This is episode 488, and today we have Michael Cho on the podcast. He's a world famous cartoonist, illustrator based in Canada.

01:28
You can see his art on comic book covers for Marvel, DC, Dynamite Entertainment. He's also drawn for Star Wars, Disney, the Marvel Cinematic Universe, Mondo.  Most recently, Michael Cho's signature art style can be found in the pages of The Avengers and The Verocity Trap,  a graphic novel by Chip Kidd and Michael Cho that was published in August of last year. And if you walk into your local comic shop right now,  you can see Cho's artwork on the covers of the latest Space Ghost comic series  and the new Thundarr the Barbarian series from Dynamite.

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which just launched this month. Michael Cho is currently doing the covers for both of those series. In a few seconds, we'll hear from Mike about what it's like being an in-demand cover artist and hear some stories from his very long and award-winning career. But first, I want to shout out our amazing sponsors who help us keep the lights on here at Short Box HQ, including IDW Publishing, the award-winning publisher of comics, graphic novels, and books like The Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, Star Trek, Sonic the Hedgehog, and Godzilla.

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And last but not least, a big shout out goes to Collective Con. Northeast Florida's premier anime, comic book, pop culture event is taking place again here in Jacksonville, Florida on March 27th through the 29th. You can get your tickets at collectivecon.com. Come on out, I'll be there. It's your 11, Collective Con. Check it out.  Now, without further ado, let's welcome our guest of honor today, Short Box Nation, it's Michael Cho.  Hey Mike, how you doing?  I'm good, thank you. Thanks for having me on.

02:52
Hey, it is a pleasure. I have been a fan for a long time. I love this view that you got going on. my video viewers, Michael Cho looks like, it looks like I'm talking to Mr. Rogers right now. You got the cardigan sweater. Yeah, you're in  what looks like a very comfortable seat. You look cozy. You look really cozy, Mike.  I'm  mostly cozy. I'm getting over a cold. So if you hear me occasionally cough,  I'm sorry, but I can't help it.  It's just run through our house.

03:19
Nah, I don't blame you. I have I've got a couple of friends that have fought a nasty quite a nasty bug that's been going around. So I hope you're feeling better. Mike, I went into my local comic shop today, Gotham City Limit, and I picked up Thunder the Barbarian. Number one, you did the cover for it out by from Dynamite Entertainment written by Jason Aaron and art by Kuber Ball. And I got to say, man, this is an attention grabbing.

03:44
cover right here. It just jumped out at me at the shop. think it stands out. And I think that is a knack that you've got  drawing some amazing freaking covers. Thank you.  And um I spent the better half of today down a rabbit hole relearning. I feel like I knew this, but I kind of forgot it. Re-learning that Jack Kirby was heavily involved with Thunder, the Barbarian, the cartoon series. He did a lot of the production artwork.

04:10
But then also I was looking at the people involved with the show, right? Like the amount of legendary comic creators and just- Gerber. Yeah, Steve Gerber, Martin Pascoe, Mark Avenir. yeah. Roy Thomas was also involved with like Thunder of the Barbarians. That makes sense. I didn't know that. It is a very stacked lineup. And I want to know from you, I guess, was the thought of the legacy-

04:34
of these  creators and the history of this beloved show,  at the forefront of your mind when creating, working on a project like this, or even Space Ghost. Is that at the forefront of your mind when you're working on these covers, or do you kind of that separate? No, no,  I'm keenly aware of the history of them. That's the appeal of them for me. um I was working on Space Ghost covers for  Dynamite uh when they asked me to do Thunder.  And uh it came about in a roundabout way, but.

05:04
uh My initial attraction to something like, Space Ghost is because of the fact that it's an Alex Toth creation.  And Toth is a creator that I really respect. I'm sure most comic fans know who he is.  And if they don't, they know the people who were influenced by him, of which I am one, and many others. I don't have as much Toth in  my DNA as a lot of other people, but uh I still respect the hell out of his work. And  Space Ghost uh holds a particular  spot in my heart because of the simplicity of the design. So...

05:34
When I was working on Space Ghost, I am trying to  adhere to do that delicate balancing act of  being respectful to Toth's take on it  and his creation and trying to keep to the essential DNA of that,  of the design, but  also at the same time modernizing it and not making it like a time capsule  from  1960s, but rather take those same ideas and the same designs and update them a little bit.

06:01
but not so much that they're unrecognizable and keep the same feel.  And  it's a similar thing with Thundar. uh The funny thing about Thundar was uh when they asked me at Dynamite what else I would like to work on uh among their properties, they were reading off various things. And then when they said uh Thundar, I was like,  yes. was  because as a kid, uh I was a kid of the  80s and I would sit there eating my Cheerios.

06:29
in my underwear watching episodes of Thundar on Saturday and it was like one of my favorite cartoons.  And I recognized uh like  as I got older that it was clearly Jack Kirby's input into that book,  into that show that was the appeal for me because the designs were so cool and freaky. then uh also discovering about how Toth's involvement uh is in there and Steve Gerber who created I think, Ukla the Mock, right? The Thundars.

06:57
Chewbacca to Han Solo, you know? then I remember reading like, uh Ukla Damoc gets his name because uh Steve Gerber saw the UCLA  campus and took UCLA and just pronounced it phonetically, Ukla. Wow.  So,  the little bits of trivia like that.  But the thing for  Thumbnail for me was just like, you know, he was uh at a time in  I think this is before Spider-Man and his Amazing Friends, which was the next big cartoon.

07:25
on my childhood, know, Loveless. But, but Thunder was the one that was the real action cartoon. You know what I mean? Like there were riding horses, they were in danger, there were lizard men, there were wizards, there were helicopters that destroyed cities. It's like, you know, the first three minute intro is enough to get you hooked if you're a kid, right? And, and the fact that we were all watching Star Wars at that time, and then Thunder has a flaming sword that looks like a lightsaber. And then he was going to chop up robots with it. I mean, let's

07:55
That's what you're there for. think everybody who probably, uh like, there's probably a large contingent of people who are buying the book now who remember that. And they're like, oh, this would be so good to see it in comic form, you know?  So my job on uh on Thunder when I got the gig was I was, uh Thunder has a lot more Jack Kirby than Toth, even though they're both designers on it.  The real interesting stuff, the stuff that sticks out is a lot of it is Kirby stuff.  So for me was to try and honor uh

08:24
Kirby's take on Dundar.  Again, still adding my own self so that I'm not submerging myself completely trying to do a pastiche of Kirby, but  updating it as well and trying to convey  what  my love of that property was  filtered through my experience and my growth in the 21st century. uh that's generally what I'm trying to achieve on those  covers.

08:49
It's been a thrill. got like, I think the first issue's out now and I think I've done  five covers  already for them. So  there's like four more that are coming  that you'll see. And I'm supposed to get on the next one real soon. What's the first thing you do? Like what's the first step in your artistic process when you get an assignment like Thundar or like Space Ghost? Because it sounds like you definitely do your research. Is it research heavy or are you like doing thumbnails first? Like what's the first thing you typically do?

09:20
um It varies.  It varies because, um for example, if I get assigned a main cover, and that's usually a lot rarer than me doing varied covers,  when I get to do a main cover,  generally I'm  asking what do you have about story or script, something that I could play off of to make an interesting cover. uh I don't know if readers or listeners know this, but uh due to the nature of comics, a lot of the time when you're doing the cover, the story isn't finished.

09:49
It isn't drawn, definitely. There might be a script. There's probably a synopsis, and if not, they probably got a one-line thing like, fights Gemini or something. So you're trying to build an  interesting cover  based on that. But um the first step  in a main cover is then  research and finding out, okay, what is the story? Read the comic, read the script, read the synopsis, whatever you have. uh Do the research on the... uh

10:15
the costumes, the locales as needed. Like  what I'm doing, say Marvel Comics, uh a lot of the times uh they'll say, you know, draw Hawkeye and I have to ask which Hawkeye, what costume?  And then I'll say, is it this costume or this costume? And they'll go, no, no, there's a new one and I will send you the reference.  So then you figure that out. then, uh and  so after all that research is collected, uh I'm trying to figure out what is the most exciting scene, you know,  what is the most exciting depiction I can do.

10:45
and then working out the thumbnails and layouts for that. But uh if it's a variant cover,  a lot of the time it's not the main cover and then there's a lot more freedom because  you're no longer beholden to, say, uh stick to the story. You just have to make an attractive image. And I personally kind of like that because uh it gives me a lot more runway to do crazy stuff and have fun.  And that's really the joy of this work for me is uh

11:15
that opportunity to uh make a fresh image unburdened by  technical limitations. a lot of the times, for example, with the Space Ghost stuff,  I don't even ask them what's the story about or something, uh because it's a variant cover. So I sit there and I just try to come up with the most eye-catching image possible  without repeating myself. uh with Space Ghost, I've been doing this for a while. So  I have kind of like a set, uh like four

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ideas that I'm sort of alternating between. I try to do  a cover that is just feature space ghost. It is very painterly  or uh very rendered. And then I try to do one that's very designy and it's more about concept.  And then I try to do one in group, incorporate the whole group in a comic book and try to make a traditional comic book cover.  I  alternate between these kinds of approaches or  combining these approaches. So that's generally what  the first step is.

12:12
Now, when you're working, when you're like really in the meat of it, because I can see a little bit of your studio, but not a lot. Do you have anything  on in the background, whether it be like music, movie or  something? Yeah, yeah. And  it's changed over the years. Like when I started, I used to have  a studio that had like  TV that would be playing  like the news or something  and movies and then a video game in the background or something. And I got rid of all of that as I got.

12:41
more mature and realized I just have to concentrate on work. oh These days,  this is really sad, but I'm an NBA nerd, so I just listen to NBA podcasts while uh I'm drawing.  if uh I have to do something particularly complex or requires a lot of thought, then I'll go into just like  put on some uh music that's non-vocal, right? Like instrumental music or uh I find myself listening to those.

13:08
This is how sad I am these days.  find myself listening to those things on YouTube where it's like uh intense study music for people with ADHD or something, you know, just so that has like  some sort of sound in the background, but it isn't going to interfere with my thinking or hear another voice or two or three people. Like  if I listen to like basketball news, which is, you know, uh or podcasts, there's two or three people talking and then my brain can't  try and figure out, you know, what's the next thing I have to draw here or how do I render this arm or something? But  so  it varies according to uh

13:38
uh what the job is generally for covers.  It's  something that I'm very comfortable doing. So  I listen to podcasts and then if I have to do interiors,  I sometimes work in silence because I'm so, it's  like, takes so much concentration to do storytelling. I feel that. I resonate with that, especially with the podcast and being like very picky about what kind of sounds are happening around you when you're working.

14:05
ah I heard this, I recently went to a, this is super nerdy, but I went to like a podcast conference  a few weeks ago and I heard someone describe podcasts really well and it was, I'm gonna butcher it and I hate that I'm gonna butcher it, but it was like, podcasts are for your  ears when your eyes and hands are busy. And  that really stuck with me, but I have certain levels where it's like, but sometimes it's even  the sound of voices is too much. the podcast is great when I'm washing dishes, I'm cleaning.

14:34
Maybe I'm 100%. Yeah, maybe I'm doing some light show notes. But when I'm really into the thick of my process, whether it be writing show notes, obviously I can't listen to podcasts and edit. But I really do need silence. And I've started more so gravitating towards frequency playlists. Because there's a science to the certain frequency. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. I had an art teacher years ago.

14:56
like way back in college they say that you should work in silence and I was like hell no and I think nobody in our generation can follow that advice.  you know like there's no way anybody in this like anybody born after 1990 could possibly work in silence I think right like we're just  it's  experience teaches a silence frightens people the most right and and  people would rather fill that space with something. I do understand what that teacher was saying though because

15:25
The very, very best ideas come from the deepest thought  that's in silence when you get past your verbal impulses and move to a  different mode of thinking. However,  the trade-off for that  is an intense loneliness that most artists are working alone in their studio like 12 to 14 hours,  and there's only so much loneliness you could take. The reason why we listen to voices is the reason why I listen to voices in podcasts is because...

15:52
I'm sitting there going, uh it's 2 a.m. and I'm drawing and  everybody else in my house is asleep, the kids are asleep  and I'm working alone and I'd like to hear, make it feel like other people are here with me. So you listen to the same podcast crews and feel like they're, you know,  they're part of the gang that's your studio with you and you can shut them up when you need to, you know. You're preaching to the choir, Mike. Exactly.

16:16
Are you more, do you work with traditional tools, paints, pens, brushes, or have you made the transition to full digital, or is it a mix of both? I do both. I do both across the board. uh People ask me that all the time, it's like, because they go like, oh, this looks digital. No, that's traditional. Oh, that looks traditional. No, that's digital.  It's like I'm comfortable going across the board. um I'll occasionally do stuff that is um all traditional or all digital. I'll pencil something. uh

16:43
Digitally, I'll ink it traditionally, color it digitally.  I will take a digital piece, it out, add effects by hand, and then scan it in again, whatever it takes to make a good image.  The only rule of thumb I have, uh well, there's two. uh One is whatever makes the best image, right? Whatever's most appropriate for the project, uh and provides the best uh outcome.  And then the second rule is uh if it's got Batman on it, I draw it traditionally, because I could sell it.

17:13
get your money, Mike, as you should. So  that's what I learned a long time ago from uh better artists than me. And they were like, if you ever draw Batman, draw traditional. There's always a market for people who want Batman. Yeah, actually, know what, speaking about your original art,  what is the site? was on, uh I think, are you still represented by Albert Moye?  that the? OK. Yeah. You've got a dedicated, you know, there's a dedicated Michael Cho page on the AlbertMoye.com website.

17:40
And uh man, there is,  you have drawn some amazing images. recommend anyone, if you just want to peruse some amazing, know, if you want to treat your eyeballs today, go on the Albert Moy website and go to Michael Cho's page and just look at some of the original art that has sold  and some of the ones that are still on here. I mean, some incredible stuff. And it got me thinking. So I went down, you know, a very obvious rabbit hole of your artwork. And I try to think about what are some of the

18:05
Earliest images I've seen of your work or what was my first conscious exposure like what images stood out to me or came to mind when I thought like Michael chill  and my mind immediately went to Your I don't know if they were the variants or the main covers I think they were the variants but when Marvel was doing the Civil War 2 and you had a series of Covers that were like fight cards posters  man Yeah, dude, and and I want to say they also released them as like little promo

18:33
like really small promo prints. I think I have all of them in a box somewhere. I think what makes you stand out among other artists is like, you've got,  your color choices are insane. I think  your line work is super clean. Your lighting always feels like it's perfectly placed. And I think it's easy to see like the Alex Toth and Jack Kirby influences in your work. I think that's very apparent. But I also think there's also a very, there's a certain cinematic quality to it that reminds me of like,

19:02
really famous movie posters. I'm thinking like uh John Matos, is he the one that did the Rocketeer poster? uh Okay, yeah, Saul Bass.  You mentioned  Alex Hove being somewhat in your DNA and Jack Kirby, obviously, but who else would you say have influenced you? If we were to look at the Michael Cho DNA, who are some of those names and influences for you? This is an awkward question because I have like,

19:30
I have a lot of different influences that are not comics.  That's the stuff that,  part of the interesting stuff that I,  what I find interesting in comics is finding people who  came into comics bringing another set of skills. uh The first time I saw Bilsinkiewicz's work when he started becoming Bilsinkiewicz,  that's when you realize, as I was a teenager, realized  there's another  way, uh comics, art doesn't just have to be.

19:59
comic art, you can bring other influences into comic art. Neil Adams did that a generation before and so forth.  And we see uh more modern cartoonists like uh Dave Johnson, for example, bringing exceptional design ability to comics.  And they brought that from another sphere, rather than just being educated through comic art. So  not all of my influences are comics related. uh My stuff is really diverse, the stuff that I like. I like design.

20:29
I like fine art, I love contemporary art, I love the illustration, which was my major occupation before I started doing comics was I was a editorial illustrator and I worked in illustration primarily until I started doing comics. So I like to bring a different set of influences. I do have real comic influences though. I love Kirby, I love...

20:56
My favorite cartoonist is, of all people, Noel Sickles, the guy who basically inspired Toth. I like to get back to the bedrock of things when I learn about, when I'm interested in something. I try to, like a lot of cartoonists look at their favorite artists and then they just ape that when they're starting out because that's what you do as a kid, you copy panels. I copied John Byrne when I was a kid, know, and Barry Windsor Smith or something. But then you go, and for me it was,

21:24
I want to find out who influenced them.  I want to find out who influenced that guy. And then I want to go right back to the beginning. And when you go right back to the beginning,  you get  the three or four guys that every cartoonist of the golden age and the silver age mentioned as the paragons, are like uh Alex Raymond, uh Hal Foster, Bill Kniff,  and uh to a lesser extent, Noel Sickles,  because he didn't do as much. But Noel Sickles is the guy who taught Kniff.

21:53
When I was learning cartooning  in my  20s, uh Sickles was the one that opened my eyes to what you could do in black and white. I was a kid, uh I don't know how many people who would be listening to this podcast who are artists or aspiring artists, but when I was a kid starting out,  I was really good at inking very clean lines,  but I had no understanding of lighting or volume or shadow.  I didn't know what...

22:18
where to do the thing that they call spotting blacks, right? Where you figure out where the black areas are in  a drawing. And I was trying, I couldn't figure it out. I had all these various different artists that did great work like that. I couldn't understand it.  And then slowly I worked my way back down to Noel Sickles who broke it down into the simplest way of black and white should work.  And uh once I saw his work, the light bulb went off in my mind and I got, I found a way to approach this stuff uh in a raw. uh

22:47
way, I guess, rather than this sort of processed seventh generation removed from the original source kind of way.  And, uh, and that's, uh you know, a bit, been a formative influence for me. And then,  um,  and then if you combine that with my sheer love of Jack Kirby,  you know, uh, you get a lot of what you see in my work. Mike, I have a,  potentially a silly question. So bear with me here, but I noticed that depending on what outlet or website I came across or what article.

23:16
there would be a different term to describe your profession. Some would call you a comic artist, some would call you a cartoonist.  Other bios or websites would call you an illustrator. And I was curious, do you prefer any one term? Like  does any one strike truer to what you do? Like is there any difference in your eyes between an illustrator, comic artist, or cartoonist? Like do you favor any one title specifically? Well, um it depends on the context. Like oh when I...

23:43
say that I'm an illustrator, I meant like  I'm following that tradition of like that that occupation of being an illustrator, know,  doing illustrations for magazines and book covers and things like that.  Magazines no longer exist  in real form anymore. I mean, there's, you know, there's a handful of them that are around. But uh but that was what I um started out my career doing. I was drawing for the New York Times. I was drawing for the New Yorker, uh you know. uh

24:11
magazines in Canada, all,  you know, uh and all sorts of different publications as well as um doing book covers  and things like that.  And I didn't do that much comics when I started out. then slowly as illustration started to get weaker and die out, I got more and more into comics because all of my friends were cartoonists and they all encouraged me to do more comics because  my stuff was somewhat built for comics anyway, you know.

24:41
So  I don't really have a preference. The only thing that I do, I have a tiny little, um I guess it's a pet peeve is,  I don't like to be called uh a comic book artist or a comic artist. I like to be called a cartoonist. That's the only thing. And I don't really see a major difference there, but the only thing is, is that a cartoonist is like, don't hate the word. I'm not ashamed of like,  I see people  who are cartoonists who uh refer to themselves as a comic artist because they don't want to be mistaken for.

25:09
the guy that draws, I don't  know, the little three panel gangs or something, right? And I'm like, it's all comics, you know, and some of the best storytelling happens in three panel comics, you know? So  I don't mind being called a cartoonist, you know? I enjoy  that term. Mike, do you remember what is,  this was something I was having trouble finding is I was trying to find what was your first like credited uh comic book work. And I was having a little trouble trying to narrow it down.

25:36
I guess I can ask you directly, do you remember what was your first, I guess, credited comic book work or the one that you felt like,  I'm doing this professionally? um Yeah, I think it would have to be, uh I used to draw children's comics in Canada for a children's magazine called Owl Magazine.  And if you're a child, uh

25:59
a Canadian of a certain age. You will know that because was our magazine was at every school.  was like the Nickelodeon magazine of Canada, you know, uh and a lot of kids read it and they always had a comic section in the back and I was doing uh editorial illustrations for that magazine. It was one of the very  earliest clients I had and I was doing, you know, like animal of the month kind of drawings of, you know, what the platypus looks like and things like that. And then uh one day they had a

26:26
They had a mystery comic in there that was like a four page, um like a preteen mystery comic where the kids are two kids are detectives.  And  they were thinking of getting rid of the artist because the artist didn't understand how to do panel by panel storytelling  to their uh satisfaction. So  they asked me if I would lay out uh four pages of the story for this artist.  And I did that. then the artist...

26:54
uh got upset with them and then they asked me if I would draw  continue on the series so I did that for a while  and so I think that's probably my first  Credited comics thing and then beyond that  the only thing that comes approximately the same time is  When I started in comics, I did a lot of indie comic work. So uh I had uh a Comic that I did for a local literary magazine. That was a two-pager  about a girl who works at a variety store and and

27:24
That was probably my other published story as well. And then in terms of comic cover work, that's a tricky one. Like if it's mainstream comic cover work, I want to say that I did some work for DC. I did like a before Watchmen cover and then I did a Superboy.

27:49
uh, like a collection cover for stories in from the 1940s. I painted a drawing. I painted this picture of super boy carrying kids in a red rider wagon with a puppy in it. And I think that might be right near the earliest work. So, uh, but I think I found that the adventures of super boy hard cover. Yeah, it's got the super boys lifting up a red rider wagon and stuff. Yeah. That was a wash painted. did back in the day. That was an actual painting. So yeah, I think that was probably around my first one. And then the one, the, the,

28:18
The project that sort of started uh getting me noticed was that  I put out a graphic novel in 2012, I think, called Shoplifter. Yeah, Shoplifter. Actually, I started reading that last night in preparation for this, and it's amazing. And I noticed that that entire story is done in two-tone colors, which you seem to favor.

28:38
a lot in your career, especially in the covers that you do for like Marvel. I know a while back there was a month where you're doing variants that were only done in two-tone colors and then, you know, I'm looking at Shoplifter, that's two-tone, it's pink and black. What opportunities does two-tone colors give you as an artist? Like what's the appeal of working within that limitation of only two colors? Well, it was a way for me to uh make a fresh image. Like uh I  worked in black and white when I was starting out uh and then... uh

29:08
I didn't like digital color.  I didn't like  the slick digital color look. um my philosophy of art,  if I could call it that without sounding pretentious, is that  I'm always trying to reduce,  right? I'm always trying to  strip things out.  I'm the kind of person that prefers  less uh and trying to balance and make the most out of a few elements rather than cramming everything into  a cover or into an image or into...

29:37
whatever  and  letting that cacophony be the work itself. I'm always trying to figure out how to do more with less.  And when I um was starting out in illustration, one of the first things I did was develop this sort of  style that used  only  black, white, and one other color, right? uh And not a lot of lines. A lot of it was built on the light, so a lot of the drawings are open.  And I really enjoyed that uh look because it was fresh and it was something different.

30:07
You know, it involved a bit of reader participation because the images were more evocative rather than absolute. so you had to read more into the picture yourself than was actually there. And I enjoyed that because it meant more reader engagement. So I worked in two colors that way. And plus, I found that it was better for getting across emotional content because you may be trying, like if you're doing something in full color,

30:36
you are constantly working on how to balance all these different colors to get across the approach you want.  For example, I'll give you an example.  Say you're trying to draw a scene uh and let's say it's the Avengers,  right?  And there are saying,  Cat America saying, my puppy is dead, right?  Everybody's in bright red, yellow,  and blue, right? Standing around  and those colors are going against the emotional tone. You know what I'm saying? So you're trying to figure out how do I get something that has pathos?

31:06
while also seeing the most high key colors possible  on a page. Well, that's difficult, right? So, if I could strip the color out and replace it with a half tone that substitutes for the color in most people's minds, so you could read it as Captain America's body tone and your mind knows that even though my color here is like  a teal,  you know Captain America's costume is obviously blue in your mind, so you're filling that in with your own blue  and such,  then it allows me to uh bypass the... uh

31:35
the need to figure out color  to match the scene and rather just concentrate on emotion. So uh the color doesn't get in the way of  the impact I'm trying to get. So that was why I worked in two-tone for a long while. I still do. ah I still like to go back to it, but I also don't like being pigeonholed. I uh still have that sort of uh shit-disturber kind of... uh

32:02
uh attitude  of the teenage kid who when you try to define me, I wanna be something else.  And  I definitely,  I always used to say,  I reserve the right to disappoint anybody's expectations of style. You Yeah, that's great. You brought up being  that teenage kid rebellious aspect to it. ah I wanna talk a little bit about that, that made me think that I did find that we do have something in common.  I am not a

32:30
super hyper talented uh illustrator and cartoonist, but we both did learn how to read via comic books. I learned that you immigrated to Canada around the same age that I had immigrated to uh Florida here in the States around five, six. Yeah, immigrants. Yeah, immigrants, baby, come on. We get it done. Damn right we do. That's what we're trying to tell everybody, but they don't want to listen. Anyways, look.

32:54
I learned that you also learned how to read from comic books. Comic books helped me fine tune my English and just helped me read and actually fall in love with reading. Do you remember your first comic book or like the one that made you the fan that you are now? 100%. 100 % I remember. I've actually went to a con recently to buy it again.

33:15
I'm thinking it's issue 145  or 146, somewhere around there, of Iron Man.  And it's called Raiders Rampage. It's written by David Michelin. I can never pronounce that name. I don't know if I'm pronouncing it right.  And John Romita Jr., the great John Romita Jr. with  inks by Bob Layton. uh And it was the very first comic book I ever read.  And it was because I grew up reading comics in Korea when I was a little kid.  It's called Man-Maw there. uh

33:44
And then when I came to uh Canada, I was like, there's no giant robot manua anywhere. Nobody likes giant robots in this country? What the hell?  It's like, how could you tell a story without giant robots,  And there wasn't any giant robots  comics at the time. I didn't realize that Shogun Warriors was a comic that was out a few years before, but  I  was just looking at newsstands at that time. And then I ran into Iron Man and I was like,  that's like a giant robot, right? Like, except he's small. uh

34:12
but he's wearing an armor around him and fighting bad guys. was like, that's the closest I'll get.  Gravitated to it, immediately read that issue and then I was hooked on comics. It's not a particularly great issue.  A few issues later, they do a really good one where Iron Man goes to uh King Arthur's court with Dr. Doom.  Classic issue. I love that. That was a two part story. And those covers  are so fucking fire.

34:39
That story is such a banger. I re-read it recently and I was like, this still holds up. And John Junior, I man, I love  John Romita Junior and  I loved him as a kid. mean, in those  books, he's not John Junior yet. So that shows how prolific his career is when you consider the fact that what we understand to be John Romita Junior,  he had a whole early career before he hit that point that was still great.

35:05
You know, that's what kills me. So, but I was hooked at, at Soirmen was the very first comic I read. My parents owned a variety store with a spinner rack. So I had the luxury of being able to take some comics home and keep them, you know, when they were, it was time to send them back. You had a plug. You had a connection to the source. Oh yeah. 100%. I read everything. I read everything. If I couldn't, if my parents wouldn't let me keep it, I would just sit there in the store reading it off the rack and putting it back.

35:33
I read a lot of issues of Marvel two in one. And then uh one day when I was like, think 12,  someone told me there was a thing called the comic shop in my town and I didn't know what that was and then I  found that it wasn't that far from me. Went there and figured out, found out what back issues were and then  the guys there turned me on to uh Frank Miller's Daredevil and that blew my mind and that's what started everything. uh

35:58
Yeah, so I do remember my first comic very fondly and it has something of a totemic power to me.  That is so cool, man. um Random tangent, but can I just say you brought up Spinner Rack and can I tell you, Spinner Racks are not cheap. I wanted to buy one for  the studio to have one in here and it's like them things are expensive. you can find Why, what do they run for like a thousand?

36:20
Like a thousand or something insane. Well, I want to, I want to find one of those like vintage ones that has like the little comics. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Those I think, I mean, you,  you can't just buy them. You gotta be hopeful that someone on Facebook marketplace sells it. But if you want to buy like a more modern one, that's just like, doesn't have the core at work. Uh, it'll run you like 200 bucks, 300 bucks on Amazon.  Um, but I'm holding out for a vintage one. But look, you brought up Frank Miller, you brought up Bob Layton, you brought up a John Romita Jr. I read an interview.

36:49
where you said you don't do art for the awards, even though you've got hella awards to your name, but one of the greatest rewards you said, that you've received over the years has been the friendship and respect of peers and artists that you admire. That is a direct quote, yeah.  I gotta do my research, man.  You're Mike Cho, I gotta come correct. But I wanna know, who are some of the impactful artists that you've had a chance to meet and have you had any like starstruck moments? Oh yeah, oh yeah, oh yeah. I've had many starstruck moments. So oh the first San Diego,

37:19
Comic Con I ever went to, right? I'll tell you a funny story.  I went to San Diego Comic Con 2006  and uh it was my first real gigantic Comic Con. I was not prepared. I went there to sort of make business connections  with  the editor at Nickelodeon Magazine. think Disney Adventures  was also, I had a meeting with them. So was treating this like a business trip, right?  And my friends were going there for Comic Con, right?

37:45
And I went there and by the third day I'm like, I'm exhausted, I can't believe this thing is so big. God, all these people are nerding out over this stuff. I can't believe this. There's just so many toys and all this stuff, but it's exhausting. And then my friend Steve said, so you're not going to nerd out over anybody? And I was like, no, hell no. And then he said, oh, Mike Royer's over there. And Mike Royer's Jack Kirby's income from the 70s. And I went, oh God, Mike Royer's here! And I ran off like a kid.

38:14
So, uh but that was like the first time I actually nerded out over somebody. But I've met many great artists over the years that some are artists that influenced me uh as a kid. when I found out that they liked my work too,  it meant the world to me.  know,  like we can talk about, I don't have that many awards, by the way. I think you were trying to shine me up a little bit there. But  if we talk about awards, for example, uh I understand that awards are good.

38:42
Right. And but there's also politics involved with awards. You know, somebody has a comic book or whatever that they're trying to turn into a movie property. So there's more lobbying for that kind of thing. Or sometimes an award is just made by retailers to help sales in their stores so that they could put something, a sticker on it saying, know, an award winner or something like that. But you know, we all think that it's an impartial, some sort of, you know,

39:08
judges in a star chamber somewhere that are trying to uh judge this thing in an ivory tower, but it's not, you know? There's real world considerations that go into awards.  So I don't really put too much stock into that stuff, but what really means something to me is finding out that  somebody who you really respect, who you consider an artist, know, like a real artist,  also respects your work. That, to me, is the golden feeling, you know?  And I've had the pleasure over the years of having some of these guys who

39:37
I consider just primo artists become my friends. Dave Johnson, I mentioned him for example, when I was starting out, I approached him at a con because he was friends with another friend of mine. And I just nerded out and told him, I just love your work. I love all the sensibility. There's a lot of great thought into your work. Design sensibility that's so fresh and everything like that. And he was very kind to me. And then over the years we've become good friends and we see each other all the time at cons and I'm happy.

40:07
You know, it always brings me a sense of joy that, uh yeah, this is a guy that I really respect whose work is, you know, like tops.  And, you know, and we can talk high level stuff about art as peers, you know?  I feel the same way with, uh there's Dan Panosian is an artist who I consider just insanely talented, you know?  I always think like, Dan, it just comes out of you like water. Like you just turn on the tap and you just make a great drawing. Me, I sit there and I sweat and have massive self-doubt over everything and, you know, wonder if...

40:34
Is this any good? What am I doing here? Can I even draw a finger today? Can I even draw this twisting body? Oh my God. And Dan is just like, know, he just picks up a brush. looks like just  knocks out another masterpiece and,  you know,  and, you know, and we're friends. And I've had like um people like, uh one time Dennis Cowan came up to my table and he actually said, you know, he introduced himself, right?  And I was  surprised because I was like, dude, I've known you since I saw the Dewar's ad with you  in it.

41:03
in 1989 at the back of a Playboy magazine I found in the woods. You were like my example of an amazing comic artist who was now featured in magazine ads. That's so cool. It's extremely heartening to me. Another modern contemporary artist that I really like is Josh Middleton. He draws incredible covers. He's one of my favorite cover artists. Me and another artist, Nick Darrington, were one time

41:33
chatting on, I feel like I'm name dropping here, I'm really sorry.  No, please continue. don't mean to. No, no, no, I'm a fan of all these people, so please continue, you've got stories. So me and Nick Darrington, we've known each other for a long while. We don't see each other often, but we've known each other a long while, and we were just chatting on Instagram or something at 2 a.m. in the morning,  you know,  and then he sent me uh his new cover that he was doing, and at the time he was drawing Mr. Miracle,  and I thought this was a bang-up, just a great cover, and so I sent him something that I was working on, and he was like,

42:01
hey, this is Dynamite, and then we both went,  but we're both playing second fiddle to Josh Middleton right now.  And he was like, yeah.  And then uh one, like the next year I was at New York Comic Con  and Josh came up and introduced himself to me and told me that he liked my work as well. And I was just like, I was floored, because  that's the kind of validation  that beats any award for me. The respect of your peers is that's all that you really need.

42:27
If you're in this for the journey to be an artist, you want to just know that you're getting somewhere,  that you've um done right by the people that inspired you and tried to keep to a certain standard.  You didn't shortchange the craft, um that uh all the work that inspired you and fed you,  that you are still contributing to that branch of the tree.

42:52
you know, rather than just to waste it all that inspiration that these people have given you and not done a great work or something like that, or try to  at least try to do that kind of work.  Um, and when you get validation from those people, that is, that's the motivation that keeps you going, you know, knowing that, you know, I've, you know, I've done something, you know, and I can continue to do something in this place, you know. That was extremely well said, very deep. Thank you for sharing that on the topic of peers. I would like to  introduce you.

43:21
to a couple of my peers and get into a segment of the show that I like to call the short box friends and family segment. This is a part of the show where I let someone else ask you the questions. This segment is sponsored by my local comic shop, Gotham City Limit Comic Shop. It's not only my local comic shop, but it's also Jacksonville's premier shop for comics, toys, collectibles and more is located in real life on South Side Boulevard or you can shop for them at gothamcitylimit.com. uh Mike, I have two voicemails from you. The first one is from the owner of said local comic shop.

43:51
He goes by Ben Kingsbury. He's got a question for you. Hey, Michael, Ben K. from Gotham City Limit, a comic shop down here in sunny Jacksonville, Florida. Thanks so much for taking some time to  answer a question.  fans love your work. It captures a sense of nostalgia that few can create as a comic shop owner. I can tell you.

44:14
that specifically your covers for the first volume of Space Ghosts were the most popular of all the variant covers  and your Thunder has been  doing very well. Just came out this Wednesday as we speak.  Your art feels timeless, like you could almost fit it in any era.  I believe that modern art  shading and printing have taken comic art to the next level.  How

44:43
Has art changed over the years for you  and has any of what I just mentioned affected your art in any way? Well, I'll leave you to answer. Thank you so much for what you do. We literally couldn't do it without you. And remember, short box nation,  always take it to the limit. Peace.  Big shout out to Ben. Wow, that is a very, very  insightful and interesting question. um the question was about... uh

45:10
How has art changed for me in the time that I've been working? Is that what it is? I think he's raising  a point about the technological advances. I think also techniques within comics. I guess is there any, when you think of  when you first started versus where you're at now, and guess  the advances in technology within comics, coloring, printing, all of that. And then maybe also just technique. Is there?

45:36
I guess what comes to mind to you when you think of like that turning point or like a catalyst for like a significant change in your process? uh There hasn't been like uh any like gigantic seismic upheaval. It's been a series of small changes, know, evolution in the industry. em For example, uh when I was a kid, mean, comics were done all analog, right? They cut ruby list for the color  and people handed in artwork on boards and you didn't get it back because they had to keep it to us.

46:06
have a stat camera shoot it, photograph it, right?  And then uh eventually we got  digital lettering and digital colors on like hand-drawn comic artwork. And then  we started seeing tools that allowed hand-drawn comic artwork to actually be done fairly well in a good approximation of that  digitally.  And then now we're at this point where the digital tools are equal to the traditional tools.  And also oh because they are  so evolved,  they can do

46:36
uh they can do almost any approach  via digital tools.  So you are not beholden to any limits of printing. You are not beholden to any uh reproduction process that requires a certain approach. Like for example, you must have line art  or the line art must be absolutely black or something like that. You can do whatever you want.  So because the tools allow you to do anything you want,

47:02
What you have to do  is ask yourself, what do you actually want to do? You have to actually consider that rather than like, I'm a comic book artist, so I draw line art with  black lines and black spots  of shadow, and then somebody fills in the color, right? Now you can actually,  like that isn't the only way you can draw comics. Now you can do  fully painted comics. You can reproduce that with great fidelity.

47:26
Alex Ross has obviously shown. You can do digital art that looks like traditional art, or you can make digital art that looks completely foreign and completely  looks like a mix of traditional art and digital art, or it looks like  digital art that was meant to look like an oil painting.  So all the different approaches are available and all combinable.  So therefore then,  you have to ask as an artist, you have to figure out what are you about  and what do you want to do with this stuff?

47:52
It's like uh if you're going to a record store and all they sell is rock and roll, you buy rock and roll records. But if you go to a record store that has every kind of music possible, you're sitting there, well, what kind of music am I interested in?  All the tools allow you to do anything, so therefore you actually have to consider what am I doing as an artist? What am I trying to do? Because  the other way is to just easily  slide down a road where you're throwing everything onto your page and you don't know what you're doing and it's just a cacophony of...

48:21
various mishmash of things, you know?  So you do have to consider your artistic approach more.  What I find the, what I enjoy about this era uh of art uh in comics is because of that sheer freedom, uh we're no longer  beholden to traditional tools  and we're also not  beholden to any limits on the printing process other than the fact that it's printed  CMYK rather than RGB on like on a digital screen.

48:50
So what I try to do  is, uh for me, I use it as an opportunity to question the work approach that I do and what I am  after in terms of  the impetus for this thing.  My thing for me is uh I try to approach art with  a sort of retro sensibility,  but using modern tools uh and using them in a modern way. Yeah, like you're bridging two different.

49:17
Yeah, I'm like the reason why people say my stuff looks classic is because of the fact that some people describe it as golden age some people describe it as  Silver age some people say it's like oh Yeah, this reminds me of 80s comics or something. Those are all wildly different arrows with wildly different styles But what they have in common like is that  they hit your brain of what comics should be You know what you remember of comics what the language of comics is I still use the same language of comics I do it with modern tools uh

49:43
You know, and uh my storytelling or my design or my image making uh process  is informed  by all the decades of advancement that have come since.  But I haven't discarded the past way of thinking either. I'm just trying to update it and use, you know, and see if there's something in that that can that can apply to the modern milieu, if that makes sense.  That was very insightful. Mike, I want to go into our next uh voicemail.

50:11
This one comes from a uh fellow peer, a fellow podcaster. I was excited to submit a question for you. Let's hear from Brad Gullickson. Yo, what's up short box nation? This is Brad Gullickson, one half of the Comical Couples Counseling Podcast,  the lesser half, obviously.  I just want to say that I'm grateful to Bader for giving me the chance to ask the great Michael Cho a question.  Frankly, I just want to hear him talk Jack Kirby.  As an artist who has interpreted his art so many times, Mr. Cho,

50:39
What was it like to finally draw yourself into Jack Kirby's Marvel universe?  When we spoke to Chip Kidd about the veracity trap,  it seemed to be quite the emotional experience for him. Was that the same for you? And, Bader, if you don't mind, I'd like to sneak one more question in here.  Michael Cho, what are the Jack Kirby characters, concepts, or designs  that don't get the love that his more iconic work does?  What are the Jack Kirby sleeper comics, basically? Thanks for taking the time to consider my questions.

51:08
Butter, you rock. I love the short box. There we go. That was Brad Gullickson, one half of the amazing, incredible comic book couples counseling podcast. OK, so the first part is what was it like for me to draw myself into a story that was pretty much a Jack Kirby type story? uh It was great. uh It was fantastic experience.  think he's referring to the Veracity Trap graphic novel where  we use uh

51:36
like 1960s Avengers and in a 1960 story and Chip and I also appear in it. um That for me was like,  I love Kirby to death. uh And I get Kirby  in an artistic way because, and like he informs a lot of what I do when I do superhero work.  The only way that I was able to find a road into doing superhero work for me was for me to uh embrace my Jack Kirby side, right?

52:05
That's the stuff that really turns me on about superhero work. It's an idealized version of superheroes. They're flawed, but they're also, they don't quit. You know what I mean? Captain America takes a licking and keeps on ticking, you know? Yeah, I love drawing Kirby characters. The  Verasity Trap is me trying to do my best Kirby as if, like,  if I  had no more constraints and I could just Kirby out everything the way I wanted to, then this was the book that I would make, right? That's what we did.  So it was great to  put myself into that.

52:35
and see myself with the Avengers. There's a panel in the story  where uh Captain America sits down at my drawing table and takes over finishing my drawing. Yeah, I love that scene.  And Chippa just wrote, like, uh Captain America sits at the table and starts drawing while the Avengers gather around him. And I added me in the back holding, because we were just supposed to be standing in the back watching, and I added me holding Captain America's shield  while he's drawing. I got the...

53:00
whole nerdiest look on my face. I'm just sitting there like standing there like a total fanboy holding his shield watching as he draws and finishes my drawing. know,  so that was like my little, you know, little nerd cameo to put in there of uh to show how, you know,  amazed I was at that experience. So  that was  it was super fun to do. I love  drawing Kirby characters. My all time dream project  is a Kirby project. I always wanted to do new gods.

53:28
And I have a story idea that I've wanted to do for years  that  I think in limbo at DC that it's something maybe they'll make it or something.  it's the best thing I've ever wrote. it's the thing that  if I only draw one superhero comic in my life, that would be it. You know what mean?  And so  I would want to do New Gods as the thing that I'd want to do. That shows how much I love Kirby. But the  second part of that question is,

53:53
If you're ever gonna ask me about neglected characters or sort of not as popular characters, which is  like a huge list when you consider that Kirby created just like,  more than people were doing like 10 lifetimes. oh But for me, uh I'll tell you one that's relevant right now is that  I love Jack Kirby's Eternals, for example.

54:15
uh It's uh it's sort of a forgotten book It's considered lesser by some people because uh it was in it was in mid 70s after new gods Some people don't like it as much. I love it. I love everything by Kirby, you know,  and and one of my uh favorite characters in the Eternals is a guy called  ransack the reject  and him and Carcass the other big brooding uh animal uh like gladiator in there

54:40
are my two favorite characters of The Eternals because they're such cool archetypes. Kirby doesn't really write  subtle characters. He writes,  you know, mythical archetypes. And Rantzak is interesting because he's guy who's,  he's born in the kingdom of the deviants where everyone is ugly, but he looks normal. And because of that, he's hated  and he has become an absolute monster because he's been hated and, you know, bullied.  And so he's become the toughest, meanest gladiator in this kingdom.

55:09
right,  and because he's good looking, you know, and then contrast that to  Karnak,  or sorry, Karkus, the other gladiator in the Eternals, and he's a giant monster who looks hideous,  but he has the soul of a poet and is an intellectual, you know. These are like classic Kirby, like, archetypes, right, and those two characters when they showed up in the Eternals, that book changed and I was like, oh, these are my favorite characters immediately, right,  and  the reason why I mention this is because

55:37
Recently,  I  just finished drawing a 10 page eternal story for their 50th anniversary  comic  featuring Ransack the Reject.  And when Marvel asked me uh to draw something for them for this eternal's book,  it was a bit of a long winded road  to this thing because I was at San Diego Comic Con and they contacted me. The editor, Mark Panacea,  asked me uh if I would draw a Scrooge McDuck story.  And I said, no, I can't.

56:06
I'm no good at that. can't draw Disney characters. I am not a funny animal guy. I'm no good at that kind of  work. There's way better guys than me  for that.  And  then he said,  would you draw like an eternal story? And I was like, dude, why did you lead with that? Yes.  So I said, yeah, I'll do that 100%. But I was secretly in the back of my mind hoping, oh, I wonder if they'll ever like do an eternal story featuring my favorite characters, know, like Ransack or  Carcass.  And I was thinking, well, they're probably going to give me something that features, know.

56:35
somebody else. then  they came back and Ralph Macchio, the old Marvel editor there,  who loves the Eternals, came back with the Ransack the Reject story.  And his story was dynamite. It was exactly what I pictured  for this character. And I told him, like, I'm 100 % in  and I'm going to do this story like gangbusters. You know, I'm going to do my best job on this thing because this is one I'm already inspired reading the pitch, you know.  So so it was a thrill to do that. So  to answer that question, one of my favorite

57:05
neglected characters  the the deep cuts  on Kirby's uver is is Red Sack to reject and and  I got to try I got the chance to draw them and that would be like an almost impossible set of circumstances who would ask you to draw that story, you know, like  Roth macho would  and I know this because I at Heroes con last year I had a chance to do a host a fantastic four panel and he was added last minute

57:32
And I felt so unprepared because I'm like, this is Ralph Mongeau. This dude's got like history. He was a great addition. mean, in the way he spoke about Kirby on that panel, as well as his reference for Fantastic Four, like it sucks because the audio, couldn't save the audio for the life of me, but it's a memory. And when I heard you say Ralph Mongeau, I was like, oh, I got to read this. You're telling me he wrote the script and you did the art? Come on now. Yeah. And the thing is, he wrote it Marvel style. But when he sent me the pitch, right?

58:01
I was reading it, by the time I got to the first paragraph, was like, if I had the chance to pitch a story for The Eternals, this is literally the story I would pitch. Only he's already written it, it's fantastic. I didn't have to come up with something, right? And as I was reading it, I was like, yeah, I agree with this 100%, it's got a lot of emotional bite to it. I like stories that have stakes and have emotion, and he's written that. And we shared a few emails where I was trying to tell without being too fanboy, like listen.

58:29
I 100 % get what you're trying to do.  I guarantee you,  I know what you want. I'm going to give you what you're looking for.  Because we're all the same wavelength here. You're not going to be surprised by these pages.  I think I can confidently say Brad is going to  love this part of the interview and your answer.  the topic of, mean, 70 % of this interview has been about Kirby and I'm all here for it. To tie it back to Thundar and Michael Cho.

58:58
You'll notice a really cool Easter egg on the cover of Thunder the Barbarian number one. ah There is a broken sign  that Ulick, is that his name, Ulick, right? Ucla. Ucla, thank you. That Ucla is holding, he's holding a street uh sign. It is a half broken sign that says Kirby Street. And I thought this was an interesting timing, because I imagine that, when did you do this cover, the art for this cover? You'd say like a couple of months ago? Maybe a year ago? No, that had to be done way long ago. I think it was like uh last year.

59:27
Late last year. We'll call it late last year. I think the timing is so interesting that this, the first issue with your cover came out this Wednesday, February 4th. And I think it was this week, maybe a couple of days earlier that there is a Kirby Street that has been approved by the New York City council that they're co-naming a street after Jack Kirby. It's called Jack Kirby way. It'll be at the intersection of Essex and Delancey streets on the lower East side. Delancey is perfect. Like how?

59:57
Fucking cool is that Kirby's place is close to Essex Street So he's getting a street named after him at an intersection in the Lower East Side I think that is amazing so when I saw you know this cool Kirby Street Easter egg in your comic and then the news of it actually happening I was like there's no like this is a weird serendipitous. Yeah. Yeah, that's weird synchronicity. Yes I mean that cover is obviously set in New York. It's got the Statue of Liberty right there, right?

01:00:21
Maybe they are really using Jack Kirby's actual street side,  you know, to attack those monsters.  But I mean, I'm always happy to shout out Kirby.  And,  you know, I know that you're saying that 70 % of this podcast was about Kirby. It could be a hundred percent  about Kirby and I could do this for five hours about Kirby. You know what I mean? Like that's how much I love and respect his work. Like  that man has fed a lot of fam.

01:00:46
You know what I'm saying? Like if there's artists out there who are working in comics if you you know  if they don't already know that like  Your job probably exists because of Jack Kirby, you know, you know if they don't know that they should because  There's a lot of like I said there like the stuff that he made, know has made it possible for me to have a career You know, so  I owe that man a ton. I only wish I'd gotten a chance to meet him I know friends who have  you know, but  I was just too young at that time. Yeah. Well look

01:01:15
Big shout outs to Ben and Brad for submitting some great questions, leading us down some very interesting rabbit holes. Mike, I do have one, I'm just looking at my notes  for any questions I might have missed. And this feels like a weird pivot, but you brought up immigrating from South Korea at a very young age. You brought up Manwha yourself, which I'm pretty familiar with. think a lot of fans, when they hear Korean comics, they might think Manwha, but I think a lot of folks will think Webtoons. And I'm curious if you've had a chance to maybe dive into like...

01:01:44
Manwa or webtoons? mean, are you a fan of just manga in general? do you like it's breathing? Yeah, but I'm not as Like like everything I'm just too busy to catch up on everything I rely on my kids to get me up to speed on the newer stuff like My daughter is a something of an anime fan and a manga fan So she teaches me about the new series that I should read and we sometimes watch

01:02:08
anime together. But I don't really keep up so much with Korean comics these days because I just don't have the time. But when I was a kid, I just read Astro Boy, you know what I mean? I was like five, you know? yeah, I mean, there's a lot of great stuff happening in manga and manga, but I'm just not as aware of it these days. I think the last manga series I might have read was

01:02:38
Oh gosh, was like Dragon Head, think that was like, what, eight years ago, or maybe I Vagabond,  the one about  Miyamoto Musashi. I recently had started Vagabond myself,  and I was reading that digitally, and the amount of screenshots I have, I reading on my iPad, so I could screenshot a couple of pages. The amount of absolutely breathtaking screenshots and splash pages,  there is no way a comic book.

01:03:05
A human being could draw some of these images. It's insane. Well, they do have teams. They are assistants. That is true. Just like modern comics here, we have teams for various things. Also, I love webtoons and I that medium and the flexibility of that medium. I see some really innovative stuff because you don't have to consider page charts. You don't have to consider page size. know what I mean? It's always panel by panel. When you're a comic,

01:03:34
interiors, you are constantly aware of the page size, the limits of the real estate, uh the page turn, uh and the pause that it creates. And those are part of like the rhythm of comics, you know, and uh with webtoons,  with those types of comics, you don't have that you have a completely different set of arbitrary restrictions, and then certain other restrictions are completely gone. So it's fascinating to see how the medium can  shift and adapt to those to embrace those,  the lack  of limitations.

01:04:05
Mike, you are a very,  I mean, no surprise here. You are a very smart guy when it comes to the industry and  you're very well thought out when it comes to like  the techniques, the art,  the medium itself. Where do you see comics going? Like, do you feel like comic books, like when you think about the medium and where it's going, the growing popularity of manga, but also comics, comic book related content, like TV and movies, like, I guess, what do you think about?

01:04:32
your career and growing along with the medium, do you think there's anything that comic books in general maybe needs to improve or do more or do less? I know that's kind of like a loaded question, but just curious about what comes to mind. um If you're gonna ask where do I think comics are going, I don't know because  it'll always depend on the creators, right? I am just one of many and there will be a new one that has a great idea. That's the great thing about comics, is that you just need a good idea.

01:05:00
You can get something made. But the thing is, the medium itself is not going anywhere. It's gonna be here forever. It was here since uh hieroglyphics.  even if the comic industry goes belly up, let's say,  tomorrow or something, then there will still be people making comics  on their own. They'll be making little zines, they'll be putting them up online, they'll be having webtoons. There will be a different audience of comics. The  kids, for example,

01:05:29
The average person gets into comics when they're like 12 or something, right?  There will always be  something comics  for somebody that's 12. Like we sit there and complain these days that  I complain that a  lot of mainstream comics, like superhero comics are made for 40 year old men or something like that instead of younger readers.  Those younger readers have the world's most popular comics. you think like, uh like Raina Telgemeier, for example, right? With  her books.

01:05:56
They  routinely outsell anything  superhero related. Those are comics. Manga is comics, right? You see kids at the comic book store that are sitting on the floor reading manga. And those are comics. So the medium isn't going anywhere. uh The industry may change. You may see ups and downs of superhero comics or whatever, or indie comics or whatever,  or there'll be a big boom because people want to come in and...

01:06:25
create properties that can be turned into million dollar IPs or whatever.  But the medium, you know, isn't going anywhere. The medium is still  as flexible  and as accommodating as  it always was. Like uh I always say that comics doesn't require a whole lot of skill. needs, it requires a whole lot of energy.  know,  that's what makes, that's what sells a comic. um You could have the crudest, worst drawn thing in the world.  And I won't point out any examples, but you know, that,

01:06:54
doesn't fit anybody's definition of  high-skill artwork. And yet it can be fantastic comics that feels alive  and vibrant to the reader because it has the passion of the creator in it.  It's not about the rendering of how well you drapery or how well you knew anatomy. It's about how well you could connect with an audience and pass on the passion and energy you have for your story to them through your  writing and your artwork.

01:07:21
You know, and  you can see people achieving great things with just a ballpoint pen and, know, full scat paper that, that moves people, you know? So the medium will always be here. Great answer. uh Mike, I got one last question to wrap us up. I want to know what's the best piece of advice that you ever got and who comes to mind when you think about like  mentors.

01:07:43
in  the industry and in your career, whether they be directly or indirectly.  Does anything really stand out when you think back in your career and advice that you've gotten or  important mentors or people in your corner?  The best piece of advice  I got um was when I was coming out of art college.  it was my last day of art college. And I was finishing up  my last critique with my last prof.

01:08:10
And I knew that once this meeting was over, was done whatever education I had started in kindergarten  and had done for  decades.  And it was going to come to an end that I would have to be on my own to figure out what the hell to do with the rest of my life.  I  asked my professor, do you have any advice for me? This is my last class. And he told me,  in the first five years of your career, have an absolutely unwarranted.

01:08:35
and unshakable confidence in your own abilities. It will be the only thing that carries you through. And uh it's great advice. uh And it did carry me through. uh The advice I would give to people if  that was changed was, uh particularly to young artists,  don't fucking think about style, man. Style doesn't mean shit. Like,  I  never think about style. People ask me, how did you develop your style? I don't give a shit about style.  style is, uh some people say style is your accumulation of mistakes.

01:09:04
I don't know,  I don't care.  just do what the...  If I have a project, I change the way I work depending on that project. Like,  you know, I don't draw Batman the same way that I draw, say, uh naturalistic landscape. You know?  Like, it's... They're two completely different things, you know? So one suits a different approach than the other. So I don't care about style. Eventually,  people go, yeah, but how do you, like, know, reconcile that you love?

01:09:30
this guy who hatches stuff and this guy who doesn't do any rendering whatsoever. And I said to them, look, you could have disparate influences.  People like  one kind of music and they like a completely contradictory kind of music.  And it mixes in their head. The medium between those two disparate influences is you, right? And you are the meeting point of those things.  Eventually you will take  all those disparate influences. It may take you years.

01:09:56
but you will take all those disparate influences, they will be blended up inside you and come out through your fingertips, through your pencil or your stylus.  Don't bother trying to  set rules about how you're gonna do this because  God forbid that you should have the same style that you had in your  20s when you're 50.  That would be the worst, that would be a curse I would give to people I hated.

01:10:18
I hope you draw the same style that you drew in your  20s when you were fully mature. That would be like the worst thing. So don't bother trying to work out a style. It will evolve on its own for you. So what  was  the last part of your question besides that? Besides the best piece of advice?  Oh, mentors.  I've had a few really good ones when I was an illustrator.

01:10:38
uh First art director was  a great art director in Canada named Tim Daven who taught me the ropes of editorial illustration.  I had come out of school with a fine arts education and I was doing contemporary artwork and I needed to make money and I thought illustration would be good so I faked my way through a few jobs  and  he talked to me about, know,  and guided me about what illustration is, how to approach  thinking like an illustrator rather than a fine artist.  And then  the other set of mentors I've had are

01:11:07
the peers I had here in Toronto uh in a little club we called Superman Club.  And it was a bunch of uh Toronto based cartoonists uh of which  there was at the time there was Darwin Cook, uh Jay Bone,  me, Ramon Perez, uh Steve Lanalli, uh and Andy Belanger, Scott Hepburn, and then later, and later. uh

01:11:31
a few other people as well like Jay Stevens joined us and so forth. And we would get together every Wednesday to meet and uh we'd go to the comic shop together.  They'd pick out the previews and then just mercilessly make fun of things like, you know, talk shit about stuff.  And then we'd go to the same restaurant where we would trade shop talk uh and share artwork and stuff like that. uh those times were extremely uh formative for me because I got to experience the  council.

01:11:59
the fellowship of fellow peers who were working. And it was an eye-opening experience just to find that I was in a period of my life where I had peers who were accomplishing things rather than all of us just talking about like, when we get out of school, we'll do this together. And then you realize, wait, I'm the one doing most of the work and y'all are just goofing off relying on me, right? Or whatever. But instead you had everybody was holding their own. Everybody was a pro.

01:12:29
Everybody  was uh an excellent artist in their own right, but oh open-minded to other people's artwork as well.  so those years were very, very formative for me too. Mike, it's taking everything in my power to  not ask another question related to Darwin Cook. mean, Darwin Cook is one of my favorite artists ever, rest in peace to a legend.  Can I bother you  for your favorite?

01:12:56
Just one Darwin Cook story, whatever comes to mind, a favorite memory of him.  No, because you can't tell the best Darwin stories.  Listen, Darwin was one of my best friends. We live five blocks away from each other.  That's how close we are. You know what's wild is uh I met Darwin because uh he was sharing a studio with my friend Steve Manali, who's a local cartoonist. Everybody in Toronto knows Steve, but he's kind of regional.

01:13:21
um And Steve was sharing the studio with Darwin who had just come back from his years in Warner Animation and Steve was like  you should meet my buddy Darwin like he's you guys would get along you guys have very very similar approaches to things  so I was like yeah, okay, but I was busy and whatever and you know he was ten years older than me and uh and then one day I was at our local comic shop, and he had just put out uh Batman ego  which was his first major comic work and they had

01:13:48
They had the pages from it hanging at the comic shop and I looked at it I went, who the hell is this? This guy's like, he's already there, he's got it all, right? And so I met Dhar, we hit it off, we became friends ever since and I have lots of great Dharwan stories. None of them, absolutely none of them are suitable for public consumption. If we ever have a drink together, I'll tell you a few and you'll go, oh yeah, you could never tell that story. He was bigger than life.

01:14:17
He uh was a great,  a  phenomenal artist,  a uh curmudgeonly son of a bitch sometimes, just a lovable guy. uh I miss him daily. uh And he was one of my closest friends. And uh the thing is, all of our friends,  whether we were in Superman Club or whether we're, I see the American crew of friends of ours, like uh Jimmy Pagliotti and Amanda Conner.

01:14:46
Dave Johnson, Dan Panosian, and all of the regular gang in towns and things like that. When we get together, Frank Thierry's another one, whenever we get together, we always find that we end up talking about Darwin no matter what. It's been over 10 years, and we'll just be having drays, da da da da. Do you remember that time, Darwin? Oh yeah, oh man, do you remember? so he's always on our mind.

01:15:15
That's beautiful. Man,  no better way to end this. Mike, you have been fan fucking tastic. And with that, will say, ladies and gents, this is the Short Box Podcast. And we just finished talking to Michael Cho  about it all. We talked about his cover work on the new Thunder, the Barbarian series. We talked about his covers on Space Ghost. We talked about the King himself, Jack Kirby.  We talked a little bit about Darwin Cook. We talked about artistic process. Look, this one had it all, okay?  You can't say,

01:15:44
that you didn't have a damn fine time in this interview. um I will have links to  Michael Cho's  social media, his Instagram, as well as his website in the episode Show Notes. Check that out.  Pick up Thunder the Barbarian from Dynamite Comics. Pick up Space Ghost because it's a great comic book and Michael Cho is doing the covers. I will also recommend checking out The Avengers and the Verocity Trap written by Chip Kidd of Art by Michael Cho. It is  fucking fantastic, especially if you're a fan of Silver Age.

01:16:12
Marvel and Jack Kirby are all that good stuff. Pick that up as well. Mike, like I said, you've been great. Do you have any parting words, any shameless plug before we wrap up? No, but it's been a pleasure being on here chatting with you about Jack Kirby and my career. So thanks for having me on. Yeah, my pleasure.