Badr Milligan 0:03

In this episode of the short box, what did Todd McFarland say on the phone when he called you and asked if you were interested in writing Spawn? And what is it like being on the phone with Todd McFarlane?

Matthew Rosenberg 0:15

I'm on the phone with Todd a lot. His assistant reached out to me and was like, you know, Todd wants to have a meeting. Are you available tomorrow? And I said, Yeah, I'm available. I was like, well, what would I want to write? And I was like, well, Sam and Twitch. I love Salmon Twitch. So I'm I'm gonna like be like, yeah, what does it take to get me salmon twitch? And we got on the phone and, you know, small talk for a minute and a half. And he said, So I'm just calling to see if you wanted to take a shot at writing spawn, taking over Spawn. And so my salmon twitch thing got thrown out immediately. You know, I took three or four days to write down some notes, and then we jumped back on the phone for another three-hour call. And we did that for a few months of me just being like bouncing ideas off of him and asking questions until I had a pitch. And then I sent him my pitch and he hated it. And uh he just said no. And like he's been so forthcoming with his feedback that I immediately was like, uh-oh, like I think I just got fired.

Badr Milligan 1:12

Ladies, fantastic. The short box podcast is recorded live from Jacksonville, Florida. Yo, Shortbox Nation. Yo, Shortbox Nation, hello again, welcome back, and thanks for pressing play today. If you're brand new, hey, welcome to the show. I'm your host, Vodder, and this is the Short Box Podcast, the comic book talk show where we bridge the gap between the panels of your favorite comics with the people who put their blood, sweat, and tears into making them. This is episode 498, and today's guest is comic writer Matthew Rosenberg. He's the award-winning writer behind really good comics with really long titles, like What's the Furthest Place From Here? Four Kids Walking to a Bank and We Can Never Go Home. He's also worked on comics like Marvel and DC, such as Uncanny X-Men, DC vs. Vampires, The Punisher, Amazing Spider-Man, and a lot of other stuff. Matt is on the podcast today to talk about his new creator-owned comic premiering on Wednesday, May 6th, which should align to the same day that you're listening to this episode, because I release episodes every Wednesday. So issue one of If Destruction Be Our Lot should be out the same day. The series is ran obviously by Matthew Rosenberg, along with his brother Mark Elijah Rosenberg, and artist Andy McDonald. Issue one, it's on newsstand. It's also a giant-sized issue, okay? It's a big boy. It's a new ongoing sci-fi adventure series about service robots living in a world without humans, and one robot's particular journey as he looks for new meaning in life. The robot in question, you may ask, it's an animatronic Abe Lincoln. So if any of that piques your interest, stay tuned because we're going to chat with Matthew Rosenberg about the new series and all the other great things that he's got lined up and that he's working on like a brand new era of spawn comics. He's writing not one but two new spawn comics starting this summer. So we'll talk about that too. But before we get started on that, I want to give special recognition to our amazing sponsors who help us keep the lights on. Big shout outs to our presenting sponsor, CoverPrice. It's the ultimate comic book price guide and collection management tool for comic collectors and comic fans alike. You can check it out for yourself at coverprice.com/slash the short box. Uh, we also got to thank Gotham City Limit Comic Shop for being a sponsor as well. All right, it's not only my local comic shop, but it's the best comic shop here in Northeast Florida. You can visit the shop for yourself here in Jacksonville, Florida on Southside Boulevard, or buy comics directly from them online at GothamCityLimit.com. Those are our sponsors. They're great. We couldn't do it without them, or the loyal supporters over on the short box Patreon. I see you guys. I love you guys. You guys are the best too. Thank you to everyone. Now, without further ado, let's bring on our guest of honor today, writing a brand new creator-owned comic starting today and spawn later this summer. Let's give it up for Matt Rosenberg. What up, Matt? How you doing? Whoa.

Matthew Rosenberg 4:12

Crowd's going crazy.

Badr Milligan 4:13

They are many. Yeah, it's so much energy at the end of the day.

Matthew Rosenberg 4:17

Yeah, yeah. They they, when I came into the studio, they look angry and I was like, oh, it's gonna be a tough one. But they're they're they turn it around. I won them over, I guess.

Badr Milligan 4:24

Yeah, I mean, when you pack a thousand uh people in a live studio audience like Sardines, it'd be tough. But you know what? We're here to impress them. Um, I'm happy to finally make this interview happen uh before we hit record. I was telling you we've we got a couple of mutual friends. They all speak pretty highly about you. Big shout-outs to uh David Harper and Brad Gullickson, by the way.

Matthew Rosenberg 4:43

I I yeah, I I did say beforehand that I I speak medium highly of both of them. They're fine.

Badr Milligan 4:49

They're both fine. No, as they deserve, you know.

Matthew Rosenberg 4:52

Yeah, they're okay, guys.

Badr Milligan 4:53

Look, I guess on the one thing I did forget to mention in the intro, you know, I'll give you credit for all the amazing comic books you wrote, uh you've written. Um, but I forgot to give you credit for also being a podcaster. You're a fellow comic podcaster, you're the host of Ideas Don't Bleed. Um, a comic podcast presented by Ashcan Press featuring you, the supple boys. Big shout outs to them. And you have wonderful weekly guests from the world of comics on the show. Uh, you guys launched uh 2022, you're 148 episodes in. I gotta ask, any big plans for the 150? That's a milestone.

Matthew Rosenberg 5:27

Uh no, didn't even think about it. Never even never thought about it. Don't care. Um it's a good question.

Badr Milligan 5:34

Damn, I wish I had that energy.

Matthew Rosenberg 5:36

Yeah, no, it's it's uh uh it's a good question because it it implies that we give a fuck at all and we don't. Um we're very casual. Uh how the show keeps happening is a bit of a mystery to me, but it does. So um, yeah, thanks for people for checking it out, I guess.

Badr Milligan 5:56

Man, I gotta say, I wish I I joke, I wish I had that energy because this is episode 498. I already have four uh episode 499 in the tuck. Oh wow. Dude, I have nothing planned for 500. Like the way it's snuck up on me is like scary. Uh so I'm like trying to like pull some strings together for like a big moment. But a part of me is also like, but why?

Matthew Rosenberg 6:17

You know, like can I pitch can I pitch you something? Yeah, come on.

Badr Milligan 6:20

Yeah.

Matthew Rosenberg 6:22

Just eat a cake live. Just eat cake, don't talk, no guests, just be like, hey, it's 500, blow out a candle, introduce what it is, then just eat a whole cake.

Badr Milligan 6:31

So the ASMR episode of the short box, finally. Damn, they've been asking for that. They've been asking for that.

Matthew Rosenberg 6:36

I'm sure. I'm sure. Everybody, that's what everyone wants. People like here and people eat. It's great.

Badr Milligan 6:41

Cake's gonna sound so squishy, too.

Matthew Rosenberg 6:43

Yeah, get a wet cake, wet it up. Yeah. I don't I don't see any reason why this shouldn't be. Matt, can I take more free?

Badr Milligan 6:50

I have no other idea. That is technically the best idea I have right now. So it's where we're going. Damn, I'm excited.

Matthew Rosenberg 6:55

I'm gonna tune in. I'm gonna tune in for that for sure.

Badr Milligan 6:57

All the years that you've done, you've been a podcaster for four years going on now. Yeah. Is there any difference now being on the other side? You know, you being the interviewee.

Matthew Rosenberg 7:06

No. Uh, you know, the the difference, I don't think there's a difference in the actual thing. I have a lot more respect for podcasters because I know um that it takes work to make a good one because I don't do that work. So I recognize when I when even even things where I'm like, this is an okay podcast, I'm like, man, this is so much better than what we do. So I'm kind of like, good job, good job, everybody. Um but no, I I I I think that it's it's always I I I I guess really the real answer is like I just don't take it lightly. Like I I people giving me their time and and asking good questions and stuff. Like that's it's a lot of work and it's a pain in the ass. And so I really appreciate it. I don't think I took it lightly before, but now I'm very aware of not taking it lightly.

Badr Milligan 7:52

Yeah, it's a different beast. And I mean, kudos to you guys. Uh, I don't know if you know this. One of my favorite stats to share the average podcast does not go past, and I'm gonna fuck it up, is either seven or ten episodes. Usually after seven or ten episodes, a podcast kind of ceases to exist. And I think it's because a lot of people realize just how much work it is. Um, I mean, it's a ton of work on the back end, editing, planning, you know, coordination for interviews, like, you know, social media promotion. So I can see how a lot of people experience that pod burnout is what they pod fade, is what they call it, very quickly. And uh, so hats off to you guys, 150 episodes or nearing 150 episodes. That is no joke.

Matthew Rosenberg 8:33

Yeah, yeah. It's funny. I um we play with giving it up a lot. We talk about doing it a lot. I mean, I think I just talk about doing it a lot. I'm like, guys, are we done? And then Ethan Griffin, my co-hosts and and collaborators on it are always like, no, let's keep going. And uh I went on a signing tour last year. I did like 30. Um, I had a book called We're Taking Run Down with us come out, and my buddy Tyler Boss have a book called Um You'll Do Bad Things. And they came out on the same day. So I was like, hey, let's go on a signing tour. And we went to, I think, 32 shops in 30 days or something. Yeah, it sucked. Um and uh we uh all the time people came up and were like, oh man, I really love the podcast. I really like the podcast.

Badr Milligan 9:17

Oh my god, that's the drug. That that's that's so that's what it'll do to you.

Matthew Rosenberg 9:20

You know to you.

Badr Milligan 9:21

Some praise gets your head. Oh, you like hearing my voice?

Matthew Rosenberg 9:24

The the the well, the thing is the the thing that I really felt not, I mean, Tyler was constantly kind of in shock because he was always like, Man, people listen to your show. And I was like, I guess I was like, I guess they do. But the the thing I thought about was the number of people who were like, Oh, I heard this person on your show or I heard you talk about this book and I checked it out. And that to me is what I'm hooked on. Like, I I I'm a big evangelist for comics and good comics and talking about comics and sharing comics. And so, like, if I could stop doing it and have someone else do it and it would fill the same void, I would do it. But I'm like, people keep saying, like, oh yeah, you introduced me to this thing. And that to me is very addictive. I love that. I that's like the thing I'm proud of is when people are like, Oh, I discovered this thing through you. It's it's awesome, it's a great feeling. And I'm sure, you know, your show and and all these podcasts, like people are, I'm sure people are tuning in now, and I mean, maybe not for me, but I'm sure for other guests they tune in and they're like, I want to check out that guy's books, and that's great. That's awesome.

Badr Milligan 10:21

I think you'd be wrong. There's the excitement of of you being on the show. Uh, I've I've definitely gotten some comments about it. But I want to ask, because it your your last episode, which I need to, I I've actually got it queued up. Um, it's a like a lightning quiz round with Rick Remender. I think it's like 23 questions with Rick 24. 24 questions with Rick Remender. What's been, I guess, like the biggest have you had like a light bulb moment, like talking with like your peers and colleagues? Like, has there have you, I guess, learned anything about the trade and the medium of comics from other, I guess, talking to other creators?

Matthew Rosenberg 10:51

You know, that's sort of my goal. My goal always was like, well, I want to learn to be better from people who I respect. Um and I do at times I I get into that. What I've found is that the best episodes, the ones people respond best to, are the ones that are much more like a bunch of comic creators sitting around talking. Like it's less like an interview and more like a type of a behind-the-scenes chat. And people are like, oh, is this what it's like when you guys are like at a con or at a bar together? And so in some ways, like the thing I want the podcast to be and the thing that it is, don't you know, the thing that I want it to be and the thing that the audience wants it to be aren't necessarily in sync always. So no, I haven't learned there hasn't been a lightning bolt moment. There's a lot of little stuff. Like hearing how people come up with ideas and put stuff together is always interesting to me and and like process stuff. I'm always intrigued. I don't interview a lot of artists um because I feel like I don't have the tool set like linguistically to talk about them. Like I just don't um I know a lot about comics art, but I don't think I could do it justice. And so like I'm much more talking about story and writing because I get that better. And when I have people who are writer artists on, I'm always fascinated. So I should interview more artists because I'm always like, well, how do you do this and and how does this affect it? So like I've had a bunch of, you know, I had Tim Seely and Tony Fleece and Tyler Boss and Chip Sidarsky and and like a lot of people like that who who draw and write Morgan Beam, like, and they're always interesting to me because it's giv it definitely giving me insight from a different perspective. And I like that, but I don't try and do it more because I'm dumb, I guess.

Badr Milligan 12:36

You know, on the on the topic of like authors or solo creators that write and draw, it reminds me of something you said on another interview. I think uh I was watching this clip where you were talking about what makes what makes comic books special. And I'm paraphrasing here, but you were talking about how comics are like an urgent medium, like it's like made in little to no time compared to something like a movie, a TV series, or any other kind of uh creative uh medium, like comic books are pretty fast-tracked in comparison to other mediums, and they're also special because in some cases they can be made by one person, you know. I I think about like Cliff Chang, I I think, you know, I think about his Catwoman Lonely City. Not only did he write it, but he drew it. I want to say he colored it and he lettered it, you know? And even if we're looking at like something like if destruction be our lot, where it's you, your brother, Andy McDonald, you know, uh um uh Otzman Elho and you know, the editors, you know, that's still like 10 people. And in comparison, it's still a small thing. Um so that's been on my mind a lot lately. And and I guess I want to know, how fast do you think you can crank out a comic?

Matthew Rosenberg 13:40

Um You know, I don't draw it, so that's that's the quick part. The the fastest I've ever had to write a comic, I had I had to write a script in 18 hours. Um is that like unprecedented?

Badr Milligan 13:50

Like what's the average?

Matthew Rosenberg 13:51

No, no, no. I I don't I don't know that there is an average. I know I know pl plenty of plenty of pro writers who it takes a month, and I know people who it takes four days. Um my I'm not fast. People assume because of the volume I do that I'm I'm a fast writer. And I know fast writers and I'm not one. I just um have no social life or free time. So uh the volume is is because of that. But you know, I yeah, I mean I I I I tend to think like a week for a script is is is healthy for me. Um two weeks is nicer, three weeks is better, but I uh a week is healthy, but I can do it in under a week if I need to, which I I often do.

Badr Milligan 14:37

Yeah, so 18 hours is is insane in that comparison. I mean, and you you said it yourself, the volume of comics that you have to your name is is really impressive. You've written a lot of comic books.

Matthew Rosenberg 14:47

Yeah.

Badr Milligan 14:48

What's the comic that made you want to write comic books? Like, could you pinpoint one?

Matthew Rosenberg 14:53

You know, I think that there's there's sort of a multi-part answer to that. Like I've been a comics fan my whole life, but I never thought I when I was a little kid, I thought about making comics, but I wanted to draw them. And I was terrible, and so I gave that dream up pretty quick. Um once I realized that I wasn't Jim Lee or Todd McFarland after two weeks of trying, I was like, yeah, I'm sober. I'm driving.

Badr Milligan 15:14

You too? Okay, cool. Yeah, yeah.

Matthew Rosenberg 15:16

It's pretty disheartening to be like, I'm gonna draw like just like Jim Lee, and then you sit down and you're like, I you don't even know that that's Wolverine. I just I just hung it up right there. Um, 12-year-old me throwing the towel or whatever. Um but I didn't think about making comics for a long time, and then there were two sort of things that made me that so I there's sort of a two-part answer. One is Powers by Brian Bennis and Michael A. Von Ooming. That to me was like a lightning bolt moment for sure. Of just like I I know it's it's corny to say, like, oh, I didn't know you could do that. But like reading a book like that, I was like, oh, I didn't realize you could play with the medium this way. I didn't realize you could play with genre this way. I didn't know you could do something that felt so personal and intimate, but also fun and epic and big. It just felt like all these things that I hadn't seen. And it's all I don't want to disparage it because I love the book. It's one of my favorite comics of all time. I it's nothing, none of the ingredients to powers are original. It's just everything is done at their pinnacle. And that to me was exciting. That I was like, oh, there's a way to do everything that I've seen done before better and more interesting and combine them in interesting ways. But I still didn't have a key as to how to make comics. And I sort of, that was just a moment that got me excited about the idea, but I didn't think it was realistic. It was uh actually reading an interview with Steve Niles, the writer Steve Niles. Um he uh made a lot of books I love, like Thirty Days a Night and Um Criminal Macabre and a bunch of stuff that I love, the the Cal McDonald books. And uh I was reading an interview with him, and he used to play bass in a band that I loved. Um, and I had no idea. And I grew up in like the punk and hardcore scene in New York, and he was in a Washington, D.C. punk band that was before my time, but I loved them. I had all their records, and um finding out that he played bass in in Gray Matter, I was like, oh, someone who came from sort of where I came from now does this other thing. And that to me felt because I didn't know anyone who made comics. I never met anyone who made comics in my life. That felt like, oh, I could do this, and and not in a like, oh, if Steve Niles can do it, I can do it away, but in a like, oh, someone from my background like figured out how to do this. So that that combined with powers was like powers gave me the passion, and Steve Niles' career gave me the the belief in myself, I guess.

Badr Milligan 17:54

Yeah. Matt, I'm glad that you brought up your music background because I'm a big music head myself, big hip-hop head. And one of the most interesting fun facts I learned about you is that in 2012, 2013, you co-wrote an an album and a comic with a member of the Wu-Tang clan, and not just any member of the Wu-Tang. I'm talking about the Ghost Face Killer. For those not familiar, I'm talking about the 12 Reasons to Die album by Ghost Face Killer and composer Adrian Young, who's amazing. I just gotta know how did you get involved with working with the Wu-Tang clan and Ghostface Killer and and Rizza? How did this album and this comic come to be?

Matthew Rosenberg 18:33

Yeah. So um I it's my first published work. Yeah, 12 Reasons to Die with comic. So my um like I used to work in music, I worked in the music business, and I I quit to make comics.

Badr Milligan 18:49

Um wait, what what were you doing in music?

Matthew Rosenberg 18:52

Uh I did everything you can do in music that doesn't involve having musical talent. So I I booked shows, I I ran a merch company, I tour managed bands, I uh put out records, I, you know, I I can change a guitar string, I can tune a drum set, I can fight a promoter for money, I can run security at a door.

Badr Milligan 19:13

Important skill to have, by the way. We're dealing with the Wu-Tang clan. I don't know if you know any of the stories, but that tracks.

Matthew Rosenberg 19:19

Um so I can do all that and I can't, you know, play a chord on a guitar. So uh I I worked in music and I I put out records for a while. Like I ran a label out of my out of my living room. Um and I gave all that up to sort of uh I I I was just getting burnt out on music. The music industry is awful. And the only thing I liked as much as the music was comics, so I I jumped ship and tried to make a go of it of comics, and I was you know, getting nowhere and super broke. And then this guy reached out to me, and he someone had put him in touch with me because they knew that I was a music guy who was into comics, and he had a bunch of comics questions. And so this guy just called me out of the blue and was like, Hey, you know, can I take you to lunch and pick your brain? And he's like, I'm a manager of a musician and I want to pick your brain. And I was so broke that, like, you know, he could have said, Can I take you to lunch and then I'm gonna kill you after? I'd be like, Yeah, it's it's lunch, like sure. Um and uh so I went to lunch and we had this really long lunch and um he paid for it, which was all I was there for. And then at the end I was like, you know, he's asking me all these questions and advice. And at the end, I was like, Oh, by the way, like you just gotta tell me who the artist is. And he was like, Oh, I'm Riz's manager. Um, this is a project for that we're doing with Ghostface. And I was like, Oh, everything I said, like, throw it out the door. Because I was giving him advice based on like how to use a comic to promote an artist. And I was like, you don't need to do that. Like everyone knows who Riza and Ghost are. You can use the comic as a thing to sell itself and make money on it. And like, it's not a promotional giveaway, it's it's an item that could be sold. And so, you know, I was gay, we went back and forth for a long time for weeks, and then he was like, Yeah, do you want to write the comic? And I was like, Yeah. And I I ended up writing and sort of project managing and the whole comic. And I, you know, hired all the artists and all this stuff. And it's it's based on yeah, it's based on this record that that Ghostface made with Adrian Young, who's an amazing producer, amazing musician. Um, that was this concept record. It was this like story, sort of a giallo horror kind of story about Ghostface and the whole record, every song is sort of a chapter in this story.

Badr Milligan 21:38

I just want to jump in and say the the premise and theme for this record is is insane. I I'll be honest, I remember this record coming out, and at the time I, you know, I was on to other things, so I did not check it out like that. So that's probably why I missed the comic connection. But I went back today actually and gave the album a run through and I'm like record. Yeah, I'm like, how the fuck did I skip over an Adrian Young producer? Produced album of Ghostface. Insane. But you know, they have a Wikipedia entry in, and I just want to read the album story for anyone. It says the album's story is set in 1960s, in 1960s, Italy, of a character of Ghostface Killer, Tony Starks. He's an enforcer of the DeLuca crime family, who was murdered by his former employers after striking out on his own and falling in love with the Kingpin's daughter. His remains are melted in vinyl and pressed into a dozen LPs that, when played, resurrect him as the ghost face killer, a force of revenge incarnate. Badass.

Matthew Rosenberg 22:33

Yeah, yeah. It's good. It's not how vinyl works. You can't melt a person in it. But other than that, it's cool. Um the uh no, it it it, you know, they brought it to me and it was this whole thing. And and we had a very funny problem with it in the start because I was talking, I remember talking to Adrian and talking to ghosts, people, and and I was like, yeah, there's a problem because comics, the way comics work in single issues, they were like, Yeah, we want it to be a horror thing. And I was like, but it's not a horror thing because it starts as a crime story. It's not a horror thing until he dies. And they didn't want him to die in the first issue, and they were like, Yeah, it has to go for a while, where it's like you have to really show the gangster. And I was like, What we're gonna have is we're gonna be selling this to crime fans, and then suddenly a ghost is gonna appear and they're gonna be confused. And people who want a ghost story will already have not picked up the first three issues because they think it's a crime story. And so we had to build this whole structure. I was like, we have to restructure the whole thing for the comic. So the comic works in this very weird way where it's like two different stories, half a crime story and half a ghost story. And then partway through you realize that the crime story is taking place in the ghost story, that someone is telling you the crime story as a way of explaining who the ghost is that's hunting them and whatever. It was a little bit clever, um, or convoluted. I don't know, whatever. It was fine. Uh, but from there, yeah. So we did the book, and um, I brought it to Black Mask. They were a company that was just starting and they had a music connection, and I I knew the guys who made it and who ran the company, and I brought it to them, and they were very I I brought it to a lot of publishers, and um everyone was excited, but the time frame, everyone was like, you can't make it this fast. And Black Mask was like, didn't know better, and they were like, Yeah, let's go for it. Like, we're a new company, like let's try. And so we did. We've just made the comic as fast as possible. Um and yeah, it was good and it was fun. And then from there, like Riz's people um I got along with really well, and and they wanted to go and do a sort of sequel, and A Adrian didn't want to do a sequel, and they were like, Well, we can't do a sequel because it's Adrian's thing. So I ended up coming up with a different record that was like a thematic sequel, but not an actual sequel. So it's called 36 Seasons, and that is the a pseudo-sequel, and that's a ghost face record. And I wrote, you know, what all the songs were in the story and named it and designed all the art and everything. And then while we were working on that, Adrian was like, you know what, I do want to do a sequel. And so there's a 12 Reasons that I too that is a different record that I didn't work on because there's no comic. And then there's a 36 seasons record, which is like so there's a literal sequel and a spiritual sequel to the record, which is weird. Um, but that's very Wu-Tang to me. That's very like, yeah, we got pulled in a bunch of different directions and had a bunch of crazy ideas and tried them all. Um, so yeah. And then I was gonna do, I I actually was doing a bunch of other like they liked everyone liked the concept of like having a writer come in and write the story, and then, you know, because I was like, these are what the songs are, like, this is what each song is about. It's a chapter, like here, here's what they are, and then like ghosts would come in and and write them. And I was like, you know, it's 11, it's 12 songs or whatever. So these are the 12 verses. And then there were moments where they're like, oh, we got, you know, Faro Montreus coming and do a guest verse. You gotta put a character into the scene that can be him. And so I had to like go back and rewrite it.

Badr Milligan 25:55

And like I have never heard of something like this where there is an independent writer writing the. I mean, I've heard of like, you know, rappers being in the studio and someone's pitching an idea. It can be a collaborative effort, but like for you to almost them to be working off a script, I think really speaks to how fucking good Ghostface is at being a storyteller and having such an abstract like you know, like he he'll do a record of like MF Doom and it feels at home. Like he's he's a walk-in comic book character for me. Like he's a legit living walking comic book character.

Matthew Rosenberg 26:25

Yeah, for sure. It yeah, it was super, it was super strange and surreal. And like there's a funny thing in the credits because they were like, Yeah, you're gonna get credited for co-writing the record. And I was like, cool. And then when the record was coming out, like they called me and they're like, hey, there's a big problem. And I was like, what's the problem? No, like we can't give you a co-writing credit. And I was like, no, I already did that, and like it's already recorded. Like, and they were like, no, we legally can't do that because the way music publishing works, they were like, writing credits are one of two things. It's either lyrics, which you didn't write, yeah, or music, which you didn't write. They're like, there's no categorization for like based on a like they were like, you would be entitled to like publishing, which I was kind of like, well, shouldn't I be entitled to publishing? And they were like, no, you're not. And I was like, well, okay. And that was bad negotiating on my part. But they, but so it like the I the credit in the record is like based on a story by me. And I'm like, that makes it seem like Ghost read a book I wrote and like was like, I'm gonna make a which isn't true. Like I wrote I wrote it for him. So it's very weird. Like people always act, people come across it and ask me about it. And I'm like, yeah, it's very like confusing to explain. But they liked it so much that I was doing a bunch of others. I was working with a couple other rappers to make records, and then the label that was doing it ran out of money, and there was some mix up, you know, it's like running a label's hard. So there was a whole mix-up, and I was just like, yeah, this is all more than I want to be doing, and I want to be focused on comics. But I had two other rappers that I was doing records with, and one of them I thought was really cool. One of them I was like, oh, this is not cool. It's gonna be a bummer, but one of them was really good, I thought.

Badr Milligan 28:03

Talk about a way to enter the comic industry. That is one that might be one of the most interesting stories I I've ever heard on the show. What would you say is the most important thing, lesson that you learned from that experience working with Ghostface and and you know, Riza and the and the whole team, like working on a project like that?

Matthew Rosenberg 28:21

Um I think the thing to learn was just like be flexible. Like it's just there's so many pieces of that that just change where you're just like, oh, we had to, you know, we couldn't when we were making the comic, we because the time frame, we were I, you know, like I had to change the story, I had to be flexible because of the way comics are made. And then we were like, oh, no artist can draw all this this fast as the in the time frame we need. So we were like, well, every short story, every chapter is a different artist, and one artist can do half of a book in this time, but the other ones are always changing. And so then it then there's like 10 artists on the book.

Badr Milligan 28:56

Um do you mind if I name some of these artists? Because it is a murderous row of talent. And when you consider that this album and the comic came out in 2013, I think, you know, full respect, some of these names were not who they are then versus now. I mean, some of the names involved with this comic Jim Mafood, Tim Seeley, Nate Powell, Tyler Crook, Ben Timblesmith, Joelle Jones. I know I'm missing a few, but I mean, I'd still be lit listing names if I named everyone. It's like an insane amount of talent.

Matthew Rosenberg 29:25

Yeah, yeah. It's yeah, it was just me putting together like a dream list of people to do stuff. So I we were just constantly emailing people. And it was, it was super funny because I was constantly emailing people and being like, hey, like you don't know who I am, but I'm doing this thing with the Wu-Tang clan. And I had multiple people be like, Can you prove that you're doing a thing with the Wu-Tang clan? And I had to kind of be like, no, like I don't have a like, you want Riza to email you? He's not going to. Like, do you want Ghost to call you? That's not gonna happen. And and I'd be they'd be like, Well, do you have contracts? And a lot of the stuff was sorted before we had publishing deals. So I was like, No, like we don't have anything. Like, uh you just have to trust me that this is happening. And so it was eventually when enough people had signed on, I could just be like, Hey, I'm doing this thing, all these people are working on it. Can you do it? And so that's how it went. But like for a while, there were multiple people who like later came up to me and were like, were like, so that was real. And I was like, Yeah, that was real. That was like, you know, I w we the first issue Ghost played on Jimmy Fallon, and Jimmy Fallon like held up the comic and was like, There's a comic, and talked about it. And a lot of people who like had passed on it or whatever, like emailed me like the next day or two. Oh, hey, yeah.

Badr Milligan 30:36

There's a sequel coming out. Can I get in on that?

Matthew Rosenberg 30:38

So that was funny to me. That's cool. Yeah.

Badr Milligan 30:40

Hey, that was one hell of a fucking rabbit hole, man. Thanks, man. That was dope. Yeah. Uh I I don't know if you've shared that story to that extent before, but thank you for sharing that on the short box. That was great. Now that I'm kind of in this like hip-hop mind frame, Wu-Tang, when I think like Wu Tang, I think like grimy, gritty 90s New York hip-hop. I know that you're based in New York. You live in New York. Is it safe to say that your New York upbringing is pretty much baked into the DNA of a lot of your characters and stories? And this is gonna sound stupid, but I gotta ask, does living in New York make write writing Marvel comics a little easier?

Matthew Rosenberg 31:14

Uh, you know, it's funny. I feel like to me, Marvel Comics, I I connected a lot more to Marvel when I was a kid because of the whole world outside your window, and and like you'd just see it. You'd see buildings you knew, you'd go to places I've been. Like, I feel like Marvel has lost that a lot. Like the it used to be the writing staff was very New York based, and um, it's not anymore. They're you know, like I'm from New York, Charles Soule's from New York, Greg Pox from New York, I I know I'm forgetting others, but uh Ethan Sachs, but there's not it's not most of the writing staff, it's a very small percentage. Um and I feel like Marvel these days doesn't do that as well. Um, doesn't do the world outside your window. It's become too big, it's become too global to bother to be like, you know, this is what grammarcy looks like or whatever. And like the artists aren't from New York, and it's it just doesn't. I always tried to put that stuff in my work. I was always trying to be like, well, where can they go? Like, you know, I was doing The Punisher and I was like, yeah, he's not gonna be in Times Square. He's gonna be in like, you know, Gravesend and Hunt's Point and all these places that like, you know, people are getting in gunfights. Um and the I think, I mean, I did put him in Times Square in the book. I said I'm not gonna put him Times Square, but he definitely is in Times Square at one point.

Badr Milligan 32:34

But you know, it's Punisher isn't too cool for a little tourist in New York every now and then.

Matthew Rosenberg 32:38

He got he needs to go to the MM store same as anyone. Um the uh yeah, that's that was my contribution to continuity is that Punisher only eats at Bubba Gump Shrimp Company. That's um, but you know, I I feel like I I feel like I didn't do enough to be like these are New York essential comics, but I feel like I did more than a lot of people. So it's it's very it's complicated.

Badr Milligan 33:03

I bring that up because it makes me think of the stories that Frank Miller has shared, as well as like other writers from like the the 70s and 80s that were working at Marvel, like Jim Starlin thing has also shared stories about like, you know, on their way to work, they might get mugged, they might see some shit on the train, and they bring that into like I think Frank Miller specifically was talking about, I think getting mugged or held up at gunpoint, and he brought that yeah, and he brought that right into the story. And I think to your credit, reading like old Marvel from 70s and 80s, that New York energy, like that's what I thought New York was. Between Marvel comics of the 70s and 80s from my dad's collection, plus like hip-hop. I when I go to New York, you know what I'm saying? Like these references and and this these things that I absorbed as a child. Like, I don't know. When I go to New York, I just I don't know, it all kind of coalesces.

Matthew Rosenberg 33:49

So yeah, it's it's hard because the city is not the city that New York is famous for being is not the city that New York is. And like I think a lot of people, even non-comics people, they think of New York and they think of the Warriors and Death Wish or like, you know, Panic and Needle Park or whatever. The like a lot of there's a lot of like 70s, 80s exploitation stuff that's like escape from New York. People are just like, yeah, is that what it's like? And you're like, no. I mean, even my friends who come like I have a buddy who's a British uh writer and he he comes here a lot and he loves New York. And we were hanging out in Central Park and it like got late. And he was like, should we get out of here? And I was like, why? And he's like, you know, Central Park after dark. And I was like, man, everyone around here is like a rich old lady walking a golden retriever. Like, what do you think is gonna happen? And I I was just like, you you just you think this is Death Wish, and it's not, man. It's just not. But I yeah, it's it's uh I jokingly pitched it when I was at Marvel. I was like, look, we still tell stories about Hell's Kitchen, and Hell's Kitchen is like the best foodie neighborhood in Manhattan. It's like the I was like, it's not, it's not the Hell's Kitchen we talk about, and we're still just being like Daredevil patrols Hell's Kitchen. And I said, the only place in Manhattan, in in uh, you know, central Manhattan that feels like that, I was like, is the Port Authority bus terminal. And everyone was just staring at me, and I was like, we should do a story that is like an alternate universe that just takes place in the Port Authority bus terminal. Like Kingpin runs the bowling alley below the bus terminal, and Spider-Man is in there. And I was like, and it never leaves the bus station. And everyone was just like not amused. And I was like, yeah, I'm not entirely joking. I think that would be a really good, like, you know, not an ongoing series, but like a fun thing to just be like, what if the Marvel Universe consisted in just this one little nexus of like really rugged New York that still exists?

Badr Milligan 35:37

Matt, I want to go ahead and uh shift gears and and talk about the main reason why why I've got you uh here today, and that's to talk about if destruction be our lot number one. It comes out, like I said, by the time this episode comes out, it's it's on the same day. So uh I'm hoping that someone right now is listening on their way to the local comic shop to pick up this wonderful issue that you put out. The first issue is a giant side, it's a big boy. Um, I had a chance to, uh you sent me an advanced preview. Thank you so much for that. Um, I will say it is a moody first episode, uh first issue, a lot of storytelling. It's very tone-driven. Uh uh, we get introduced to this world, these characters, it's a lot of atmosphere. Uh, you're tackling themes of loneliness, uh, isolation, uh, finding purpose and meaning, uh, a lot of existential things I was not expecting to feel reading this first issue. But I think the most interesting thing about all of that is that it's centered around the central one central character, and that is an animatronic Abe Lincoln. And it's so you know I gotta ask the obvious. Where did the idea of using a robot Abe Lincoln come from? Why did you feel like he was the perfect vehicle to be the main character of the story?

Matthew Rosenberg 36:42

Um I don't think I did feel like that. The uh the idea came from something you alluded to earlier, which is just that I I like walking around my neighborhood in New York. I I I go out at, you know, I'll I'll finish a I'll finish a chunk of a script or I'll finish a script or something. And I'll just grab my headphones and I'll I'll go walk for a couple hours, just you know, two in the morning, go out and you know, hit the halal card if they're still open, get a get some get something to eat, whatever. Um, or just walk. And I was walking one night. It's uh, you know, not very busy. I go places that aren't very busy and uh hadn't seen anyone in a few blocks. And I just had this vision of of just this thought about, you know, it'd be funny if the animatronic Abraham Lincoln from Disney World was walking these streets and there was no people left. And that was it. That was I don't know why I thought that. I don't know where that came from. That's not really how story usually comes to me. And it just kept popping up in my head as like a thing that I thought was funny. And I I brought it to my brother. He's a screenwriter and a director um by trade, and we've been talking about trying to do something together for a long time. And I was like, is this anything? And he was like, Well, it's a cool visual, it's not story. And I was like, Yeah, but is it like fun? And he was like, Yeah, I think it's a fun idea. Like, what is why is Abe Lincoln, animatronic Abe Lincoln, the last thing left on Earth? And that's really the derivation is off just trying to make a story out of it, out of just this visual that we liked.

Badr Milligan 38:11

How often, real quick, how often do uh like does this follow your typical process? Uh like how often are you uh does the character come first, or is it normally like the plot?

Matthew Rosenberg 38:20

Or was this um you know, I this is this is more character first than anything I've ever done. Um, but it is normally things don't really work until I have the character. Like I'll have a little bit of an idea, but mostly I I tend to think of myself as a very character-driven writer. So mostly it is figuring out who the character is, and then whatever I started with to figure out putting that character into it probably disappears or changes drastically by the time there's an issue or an outline because the character has sort of dictated what the story is more than the story dictated what the character is.

Badr Milligan 39:00

And then you mentioned that, you know, uh working with your brother on this project. Like growing up, did you guys did you guys have a lot of similar hobbies? Like was comics something that you guys shared?

Matthew Rosenberg 39:09

Comics is actually, I he was into comics when we were real little, real little. And so he was always buying comics. We lived on the block of a comic shop. So he would go and buy comics, and then he's my older brother, and so then he'd be like, you know, don't fucking touch him. And uh he would go out and I would go into his room or uh we shared a room for a long time, so I would just go into his dresser and and take them and try and read them. And it was before I could read, really. So like I was learning to read off of you know Claremont's X-Men and stuff like that. And so we did have that, but actually, by the time we were a little older, like, no, we had nothing in common. Um, we didn't like the same bands, we didn't like the same movies, we didn't like the same. Um he was much more into sports, I was much more nerdy. Um we don't have the same taste in food, like we have no and we still that's still true that we're not uh super compatible on taste on anything.

Badr Milligan 40:10

So I guess what what brought you two together for this? Like, I mean, and you know what I'm saying, like writing a comic isn't just like a like a you know an afternoon, like, you know, bonding session. Like this is, and especially you I think this is gonna be an ongoing series, so this is gonna be like a pretty long endeavor. Like, what was it about this project that brought you two together?

Matthew Rosenberg 40:25

What you know, it was it it's funny because I spent a long time being nervous. Like we talked a lot about working on stuff. I have a ton of respect for what he does, and I I can't speak for him, but I think he respects what I do, and I'd like to think that. And um so I didn't we talked about working together a ton just because we thought it would be fun. We're we're close, and and we couldn't ever find something that we agreed on, and we had a lot of ideas that we'd start to go down and then not go anywhere. And I spent a long time questioning the idea that I was like, well, we don't have the same taste, like we're not gonna find a thing that we agree on, like we're just not. Um there's very little that excites both of us. There's a few things, but they're like finding those things. And at a certain point, I realized that maybe that's an asset that that we don't agree because when we find the thing that clicks for both of us, that means something special. It's not just this hit a checkbox for two people who like the same things, it hit a checkbox for two people who like the opposite things. Um and that's sort of what this was that like when we started talking about Abe Lincoln in a world where humanity's gone extinct, like it was just something that amused us both and something that intrigued us both. And the more we added to it, the more excited we both got. And I think in for very different reasons and in different directions. And I think the book is a balance of those things. I I I don't know. I think anyone who reads it and knows my stuff will think like very much it's very much me, but anyone who knows my brother and his sensibility will definitely think it's very much him. Uh, and I think that's sort of the ideal that we're looking for, you know.

Badr Milligan 42:05

You know, I'm I'm looking at the your your bibliography. I I told you I'm currently in the middle of reading four kids walk into a bank. Uh, I've I've read a little bit of We Can Never Go Home. I've read uh Destruction Beer a lot. So I'm using like that. It's a small sample size in comparison to everything that you've done. But what I find uh interesting is that you have a really you do a really good job of writing different voices. Like four kids walk into a bank. I love how Paige is different than Burger from Walter, from everyone. Like there's you do a really good job of establishing like unique voices. And even if I don't know everything about the character, like I kind of feel like I do. I feel like you know these characters are lived in, like there are people I can, you know, I know personally outside and all of that stuff. So when I see if destruction be our lot and the premise is this sci-fi premise, it's you know, following it's a world with no humans that we know of so far. I guess how much different is it for you writing, you know, I mean, does it really make a difference that you're writing, you know, robots and androids and things like that versus like flesh and blood, you know, quotation, air quotation marks at humans?

Matthew Rosenberg 43:07

Yeah. What what's funny is that when they I mean, thank you. That's nice. I of you to say, I I sort of pride myself on, like I said, like character stuff. And so I I when we started, the initial idea was actually that um all of the robots sort of were this giant network, that the city was just kind of one big organism. And they were all super intelligent, like just the the the smartest intelligence, you know, the the knowledge of all of the internet and all of humanity combined into this. So like your garbage can is as smart as the thing that runs the whole city. And and then Abe was going to be this outsider who was not connected to that network. And it essentially became this idea that like every character he met was God. And we were like very intrigued by that and thought it was a very interesting idea. But I I hit a point where I was like, yeah, this book only has two characters in it now. And like that's fine. You can do a book with two characters in it. You can tell a story with two characters in it. That's great. But I just felt like we had a real missed opportunity. And I was like, we should throw that out. Like there, there's an interesting idea there, but it's it's an interesting idea, but I don't think it's a better book. Like it's a it's a better hook but a worse in execution. And from there we just ran with this idea that like every robot is unique and different and like people and and they take on the best and worst attributes of people. And so no I kind of write them just like people for the most part. And so there are, you know, there's big gruff ones and sad, meek ones and you know ridiculous ones and weird ones. And it's it's um yeah but when I'm when I'm feeling good about a script I sort of forget that they're robots. They're just the characters and and you know like it just happens to be that one of them is named Bus and one and one of them is named Breakfast Robot.

Badr Milligan 45:01

Look easy to remember it which I can appreciate by the way. Sure. And I'm glad you brought up both bus and breakfast robot because it kind of stole the show for me. I I fucking loved Breakfast Robot. I won't spoil anything just know Breakfast Robot right here.

Matthew Rosenberg 45:15

Feel that in a mind I know Breakfast Robot Breakfast Robot is so beloved among us who made him that there's a lot of conversation about like will does where does Breakfast Robot come back in the story and how can Breakfast Robot come back?

Badr Milligan 45:31

Matt, real quick I gotta ask I I read somewhere and maybe I'm misremembering because I like to do my research at like fucking mad late at night where my eyes are starting to cross over. Am I correct that I read somewhere that this is ongoing and you're ready on like scripting out like the third volume or something like that?

Matthew Rosenberg 45:48

Yeah, yeah. Andy's drawn issue 11, which is the the middle of the third trade. How long has it been in the making? I mean it's been in the making in some form for six years. But uh that is me and my brother getting together and talking about it for a good chunk then COVID hitting and nuking everything for a good while um and then you know me taking over the Joker and DC vs vampires and my brother you know doing all the all the stuff he's doing and and Andy coming in and then Andy being like, oh they need me on Wonder Woman or they need me on Doctor Strange. So we were never on like the comic schedule of like this is full time and has to come out soon. But very early we we made the decision that I was like well let's just make as much as we can because let's make it in a different way than we normally make comics. Let's let's do a thing where we can go back and change things. Let's do a thing where um everyone can do their best work and not be on a deadline crunch or not be sacrificing their health or you know their relationships with their families. And so yeah I just decided like well I have the money I can pay everyone to make it and just not put it out for a long time. And so we've been making it full time it's existed for all of us for years and years and we've been making it full time for a while. So yeah we're on the second year of the book and and turning ahead which is creatively great and um fiscally very very stupid very dumb way to make a comedy but it's fine.

Badr Milligan 47:17

Yeah I I I love that you're putting it all out there. Yeah uh talk about a leap of faith that's that's awesome to hear do you have any kind of like like like a a custom uh like something that you do when it comes to the release of first issues like do you still like is it still a big deal for you? I know that you know your bibliography is crazy but is the release of a first issue still a big deal for you?

Matthew Rosenberg 47:41

Yes. I I I'll I'll be honest I don't think I do anything special. I maybe get like you know some Chinese takeout or something but like I don't do something crazy.

Badr Milligan 47:52

Give me double meat on that beef and broccoli.

Matthew Rosenberg 47:55

It's a big day I don't I don't do I don't do uh yeah I might get the picking duck on the ice um the it's dying in today baby uh no takeout on the yeah the the but I don't think I do anything crazy like I'll tell you this like I don't take a day off I'm not like oh I'm not gonna go work do you go to like the comic shop to pick it up yourself okay so I used to do that I used to do that for every issue I would go to the comic shop and pick it up I would go when I started making comics New York was a much healthier place and I would go uh I had a routine where I would go to Times Square I'd go to Midtown Comics I'd sign a couple copies then I'd walk to 34th Street I'd go to Jim Hanley's Universe sign a couple copies I'd walk to 23rd Street I'd go to cosmic comics sign a couple copies go to 14th Street bin planet sign them go to 8th Street St. Mark's walk the whole way maybe stop at Shake Shack outside Cosmic Comics and get a burger um most of those shops have closed so New York is rough New York is a rough city uh the uh Jim Hanley's still do going strong but in in Long Island in Staten Island and St. Mark's comics still going strong but in Brooklyn um cosmic is no more sadly so it's just Midtown for Bidden Planet. But the uh I used to go do that I'd buy a copy I'd signed copies of every single book um and then I just hit a point where I was too busy and also didn't need them. I I hit a point before I didn't need them where I was buying them and then I would just hand them to someone on my way out the door and be like here's a free comic because I was like well I don't need this I don't need to a bot copy of my own book. And then I just stopped doing that. I still will pop in but that's not that's just a time constraint thing less than a feeling honestly when you're like is there something special you do for a first issue I feel kind of overwhelmed and emotional on a 20th issue on a on a you know 10th issue like I I anytime a book comes out I feel really honored and lucky that I got to do this even one more time. So there isn't a routine but I do have the feeling still of of just kind of is it it's not exactly the same as the first time we ever put out comic but it it's close.

Badr Milligan 50:07

Damn no that's awesome to hear that that there's still uh a a sense of excitement like the thrill is still there. And if anything I I think what you said about even if it's a I would almost assume that the release of the 20th issue especially in like today's kind of like comic landscape where most things don't last past you know six, 10 issues, you know, for like a 20th issue to come out I almost feel like that would be even more you know cause for celebration.

Matthew Rosenberg 50:31

Sure. Yeah yeah you don't get you don't get a lot of issue 20s in your career these days.

Badr Milligan 50:35

Yeah. All right so Matt, uh you've said before that if destruction be our lot is a story about friends. At its core it's a story about friendship and finding meaning. I think this is a perfect opportunity to introduce you to some of my friends and get us into our next segment of the show which I call the short box friends and family segment. It's the segment of the show where I shut up for a little bit and let someone else ask the questions. In this case I've got two voicemails for you Mia all right two big fans of yours that wanted to chime into the conversation the first voicemail is from Ben Kingsbury. He's the owner of Gotham City Limit Comic Shop. It's my local comic shop they're also the sponsor of this year's segment he's a big be on the show from Gotham City Limit down here in sunny Jacksonville Florida thank you so much for taking some time out to jump on the short box podcast. So last year we're taking everyone down with us was one of my favorite comic runs period uh this is a spoiler alert for anybody who might read it afterwards you might want to fast forward but Matt, that whole chess scene with Annalise and her mom is one of the single best sequences that I've read in years. The writing, the staging, the way it plays out on the board, the artwork did you script that first and then build the breast of that issue around it or did it just hit you when you got there? So I'll leave you to answer, but I just wanted to tell you one more thing as a shop owner I got to say you do what very few other comic writers do sending out sign prints, posters, ashcans, even emailing us with any information that could potentially help us order. Since diamond distribution went out of business, FOC ordering has been a lot harder for the everyday comic goer. And what you do and the hustle you put in is greatly appreciated. We couldn't do it without you so thank you so much. And remember shortbox nation we'll always take it to the limit.

Matthew Rosenberg 52:30

Peace that was very nice. No I appreciate that so much uh I've never been to the shop but I've always heard good things about it.

Badr Milligan 52:38

I'm a I'm a big like comic shop nerd like I love dude I yes you are and I was on your blue sky account yesterday just kind of scrolling for anything that might stick out. Your feed is primarily reposts of other comic shop posts you know like you're always sharing other comic shop which I think is awesome.

Matthew Rosenberg 52:55

Yeah yeah I I uh I grew up going to comic shops it's like literally the first store I ever could go to on my own in New York City was a comic shop. It's where I, you know, my my allowance when I got when I got little weekend jobs and day jobs it's where my paychecks always went um I worked in a comic shop uh I used to tour the country and I would go to comic shops in every town. I still when I travel I'm always it's the first place I go when I go to a city um so I'm a I'm a big comic shop nerd I'm a big supporter of comic shops and um so it's always nice to hear from a shop a shop that is well regarded and well loved is always nicer. So uh I appreciate that. As to the question about the uh we're taking run down with us scene. Yeah so I knew early on in that issue Annalise you know the book is about um the child of two supervillains essentially who is uh lost a parent and ends up uh on the run and and she ends up at with with her mother spoiler but whatever uh she ends up with her mother and she has no relationship with her and I I knew that I wanted to do a scene where they they're sort of playing a game together doing something together that is very foreign to both of them seems very out of character. And at first I actually had them the scene in mind that they were going to be cooking together um and I thought that was a a funny thing but then I just couldn't make it fit with the characters and it didn't make sense. And then I was like well chess and then I had the realization that like Annalise the little girl was raised by her dad who was a man scientist and he was not would not have taught her how to play chess really um it wouldn't make sense. So then I realized that she's a super genius and she could pick it up as she goes and be quite dominating at it. She is uh you know one of the smartest people in the world and so all that went out the door the interesting thing about the scene is actually um you know I I Stefano Landini, my partner on the book, I said to him I was like we want to do this chess scene I was like it's very complicated my the way I have it in my head. It's gonna be hard for me to explain it. I'm going to literally make a grid of what I want to happen. Is that okay? Because that's I don't ever do that. And he was like yeah sure. Stefano is, you know, I've written so many things in that book where I was like I don't know how you draw this but this is what it is. And then he comes back and he is one of he is amazing at taking what's in my head and putting on a page and making things that would be most artists would have trouble making clear and making them super understandable and and very clear. He's one of the most concise storytellers I know um but I wanted to have the chess scene where the characters are on the board. It's that they're the board pieces are there there are panels on the page and the the squares of the board are panels on the page so they're peering but I also wanted it to not feel inauthentic. I didn't want people to look at it and be like this isn't a real chess game or like this an idiot. And yeah and so I had to research and find an actual chess game that that would be played by masters that would make sense and I had all these criteria where I was like well it can't be too many pieces on the board at the end of the game because I need all the space for dialogue and for their heads to appear. And I found a bunch and I found the game I wanted and then I realized that I needed Annalise was always represented wearing bright colors and her mother was always represented wearing dark colors. And so I had Annalise be the white piece and her mother be the black or I had Annalise be the black piece and her mother be the white piece and then the game I found had the wrong character winning the game and I was like goddamn and it was so I had to I spent another day researching to find it reversed which I could have just swapped the colors and I didn't realize that till later that's how much my brain was in it that I was like I could have just made the white pieces black pieces and that would have worked but uh it was it was a lot of work but it's actually um Chestner's one person one person read the book and called me on it and was like this is uh Bobby Fisher versus Boris Spasky in the World Chess Championship game six which it is it's the last three moves of of Spassky Fisher uh game six um so yeah that's that's what it is and I literally I made I said it's a you know 48 panel page and it's it's uh it's more because there's actually panels above it but whatever and I was like you know it's uh and I numbered every piece and was like these are the pieces that have to move and the three pages of it. Yeah it's a pain in the ass is the most I ever spent working on a page three days to get three pages.

Badr Milligan 57:26

Wow. It's not is it safe to say that I I I imagine that writing comics can lead you down some interesting rabbit holes research looking up interesting references like what's another instance of you having to learn a completely new thing that you had no idea about to make it work or realistic in a comic um well one I kind of hate research it's it's it's why I do a lot of sci-fi that is not super uh on point.

Matthew Rosenberg 57:55

But I do I do get hooked on ideas. There's certain like I'm not researching things meticulously but there are things that I get excited about researching. So just generally the idea of research I hate. But like yeah the chess thing there is one that I was just thinking about the other day because I was talking to my old editor um when I was on the Punisher we had an arc where the Punisher goes to prison and stages a prison riot and it was all very complicated how he does it. And like he does a few different things and one he he taps into the the sprinkler system the water line and there's a fuel truck outside and so he runs a fuel cable into the sprinkler system so that when he lights a fire it's sprinkling gas so he can just burn the place down. Um and then he's making poisonous gas and releasing it but he also makes a fertilizer bomb and in I researched how to make poisonous gas and fertilizer bombs and it's a punisher. So he sort of narrates everything and he's very meticulous. And I literally put in how to make a homemade fertilizer bomb into the issue step by step and a way you could do it and like with like you know with with different like how you can get the different things that you need. I mean he had fertilizer but how you could get the other things and how you can get triggers and you know what what kind of electric electrical vault you need to set off the triggers and the timers and things like that. And I did all of it. I did the research and it took me days and I was doing it like I didn't want to do it on my own computer because that's sketchy. So I was like going to library and doing it and like shit like that where it's really a pain. And then the lettering proof of the issue came back and Marvel had taken it all out had taken every part of it out and I was like so mad. And I wrote an email being like I spent days and days on that. It's super meticulous. And they were like yeah it's we're all by Disney. You can't teach kids how to make a bomb in the comic Matt and I was like oh yeah yeah totally that was totally and it was just a question of me being like I started from a place of being like well I want this not to feel like gibberish. I want it to feel like well maybe it would work. And then once I found out that I was like oh I could actually do this, I got so invested in it that I put it in the book and had completely gone down the rabbit hole so far that I forgot like oh yeah you can't give people a step-by-step instruction on how to make bombs in their house.

Badr Milligan 1:00:14

You're like do you know how many computers were sacrificed for me to go find this information. The viruses download it on these instant public library computers.

Matthew Rosenberg 1:00:24

Yeah I'm sure the I'm sure the FBI was at every library that I was at asking questions with my picture, trying to figure out what's going on. Oh shit but yeah so that's not in there but there's a script if anyone wants the script well I'm not gonna send it to you because it tells you how to make a bomb but it exists.

Badr Milligan 1:00:40

Put it on the dark web it's free on the dark web. You just need a tour, an onion client, all that good shit. Okay. Um big shout outs to Ben thank you so much for that uh question. I got one more voicemail for you uh I'm gonna leave this one to Ben it's David Harper from Sketched Up now and I just have a very quick question recognize all right I know that you are very good at promoting your books. You're very good at getting your comics in front of comic shops, getting them into the shops themselves. That's not a skill everyone has and a lot of creators who are first getting into the business don't really know how to do it. So if you had to give one tip to an aspiring comic creator who wants to sell their books to comic shops, what would it be?

Matthew Rosenberg 1:01:19

Wow.

Badr Milligan 1:01:20

I love how David just disappeared at the end of that no like all right thanks so much goodbye.

Matthew Rosenberg 1:01:23

No he threw he threw his phone into the cold lasting river. Smoke bomb um the well David that's a um obnoxious question thank you for that the uh it no it's a good question I think that the the thing I mean obviously I think you know there's a lot of stuff that I could say is helpful like provide people with PDFs provide you know be open to to sharing information like these are the people who sell the book and the information is good. But actually the best advice I could give is one I think people I I talk to very seasoned comics creators who never think about this, which is the way comic shops work, um for those of you who don't know at home is that uh comics used to be returnable. If you order them and no one buys them, you send them back, you get your money back. That they haven't been that for decades. Uh which means that the comic, unlike a bookstore, if you go into a bookstore those books are returnable. The book is not taking the that huge fiscal risk on it. Comic shop everything they buy they've paid for in it already. So um they're only buying things if they think they can sell them. They're not doing this out of a love of the game there they run a shop out of love of the game the the thing on the shelf that moment that morning is there to try and keep the shop open and to try and make sure that they can pay their rent and they can pay their staff and they can eat at night. So I see creators talk about shops and two shops in a way of like you need to order more of this you need to be doing this you need to be doing that. That's crazy. That's crazy. You wouldn't go up to anyone else and be like hey this is how you need to spend your money this is how you need to run your business we don't do that. That's a crazy thing to do in anything else and only in comics does this exist. And I always say I approach every shop in the same way I say I'm never going to ask you to take an extra copy of my book ever. I'm never going to do that. If you know what you can sell better than what I can I do you understand your shop you understand your customers I'm just gonna ask however many you can take is there a what something I can do to help you sell it and that's it. And I think that makes a big difference for people of just like they're inundated every day with publishers with you know everyone from the biggest to the smallest being like you got to take more of this you got to do this and if you do this this will happen or like you don't want to miss this. And it's it's just a terrible way to treat people. And I think you just go to them and say hey take what you want. If you want one copy if you think you can sell a copy awesome I appreciate it. If there's anything I can do to help you sell that copy when it's in your store reach out. That's it. That's that's my whole ethos.

Badr Milligan 1:04:00

And I think hearing from Ben, you know, him saying you know you've sending the the the advanced review the PDFs and just being uh accessible I mean clearly you know we're seeing that uh advice like in effect being very helpful. And you know David's question got me thinking about some of the recent creative ways that I've seen comic book publishers market new books. There's two two that came to mind as I was preparing everything, but IDW last year or the year before when they launched the new TMNT series with Jason Aaron, uh they paid for like a pizza party like I was able to order like a bunch of pizzas and I think he pitched in too and like you know it was cool. Like there was like 20 people in the shop when I went after work uh having pizza talking about team and tea and all of that. And then my favorite probably personal favorite last year was Ignition Press has this series called Murder Podcast. And for issue one and the whole premise is like um there's this podcast murder podcast in the story that if you listen to it you become like you go crazy and you end up murdering people. So uh based on that premise of the story they packaged the comic with like these branded earplugs you know that said like murder podcast don't let it get to you something like that. I'm doing a terrible job. But I thought that was such a nice you know what I'm saying like it was a cool way to tie it into the story. It was a cool little you know as a podcaster you know obviously that piqued my interest. What would you say, you know, what's the most creative way that you've seen a comic promoted or pitched whether that be at the creator level or the uh publisher level I think no one does it better than Robert Kirkman.

Matthew Rosenberg 1:05:37

I think and I think retailers would disagree with me on both of these things on both of the examples I'm giving you could find retailers who would say no, but I disagree. I well I think three things I can point to three times that Robert Kirkman has done things. One, the end of the Walking Dead um if the point is to get people to talk about it, coming up with fake solicits, fake story arcs, and then just having an issue be like this is the last one. It's Over. I remember, I mean, I've been reading the I've been reading The Walking Dead the whole my, you know, since it's been coming out. I literally bought it, you know, I bought issue one, um, read every issue, love The Walking Dead. And it still, I was just like, wow, the this book went a hundred and whatever it was, 97 issues, 190 something issues. And I was like, still, last issue caught me off guard, messed me up. So that I think is amazing. Um, I understand why people don't like it. My retail, some retailers got annoyed. But then, you know, he made Die Die Die and sent out a surprise trade of it before it started that ruled. Uh the stuff with void rivals being like, oh yeah, there's a transformer in it, and we're not telling anyone. Like, all of that, like that to me is so exciting, like such a good pop for for your dollar. Like, such a fun, like, yeah, we should be solicits and cover reveals and all of that takes so much of the fun out of this stuff. Like, I'm a person who doesn't watch movie trailers because I'm like, I want to go and have every shot be new to me. I want to all feel it for the first time when I pay money to sit down in a theater and see it. And we so rarely get that in comics because we're like, you know, your cliffhanger is immediately spoiled by the next issue solicit and the next issue after that and the covers. And so I love that Kirkman finds ways to surprise people. That's a huge, huge one for me for sure.

Badr Milligan 1:07:20

Those are amazing examples because I remember, especially the die die. I remember walking to the shop and it was like a frenzy. They were like, yo, did you know Kirkman's got a new comic? And it's like, wait, what? When? It wasn't solicited, it wasn't in the previews. Yeah. You know, like he gives you a reason to be at the shop, you know? And and I think that's yeah, and that's one of my favorite aspects. Uh I don't, my poll list does not look like what it used to look like years ago. But it's you can't beat the experience of going into a shop, that communal aspect. Anyways, big shout out to David Harper. Um, great voicemail. Um, Matt, we can't end this interview without me asking you about your new new project coming out. I mean, obviously we talked about if destruction be our lot, but you've got even more new projects on the way. One of those being Spawn. All right, I can't let you go if I don't ask a question about Spawn. Sure. And I think I've already said it, but you're not writing just one spawn comic, you're writing two spawn comics. So for those maybe unaware, starting late May, you'll be writing King Spawn with issue 55, which comes out May 27th, alongside artist Thomas Natchlick. And then you'll be writing the mainline spawn with issue 376 in June, alongside artist Steven Segovia. Uh, it'll be the launch of uh a brand new starting on point. It's being advertised as a perfect place to jump in if you've been curious about the spawn universe. Uh uh, my first question, and maybe my only question really is what did Todd McFarlane say on the phone when he called you and asked if you were interested in writing Spawn? And what's it like being on the phone with Todd McFarlane?

Matthew Rosenberg 1:08:56

I'm on the phone with Todd a lot. Uh, it's it's awesome.

Badr Milligan 1:08:59

Um did you did you ever meet him prior to him reading?

Matthew Rosenberg 1:09:03

Yeah, I met him twice before when me and Tyler Boss launched what's the first place from here image was the last time they did an image expo, like the con. Um, and Todd was there, and so he sort of introduced himself to everybody, and I was kind of just awestruck because he's one of my heroes. And then I did a Comic Con in Arizona, um, where he lived at the time, and he uh came to my table and just to chat and was like, How's it going? And I was just like kind of awestruck. So I had met him before, um, briefly twice. But yeah, his um his assistant reached out to me and was like, you know, Todd wants to have a meeting. Are you available tomorrow? Or it wasn't even tomorrow, it was like a few days later. And I said, Yeah, I'm available. Um, and for reasons I don't know, I was convinced that he wanted to talk to me about toys. Um and I was like, well, he's got McFarland toys, he wants to talk to me about toys. And I spent days being like, what is he talking about toys about? And then right before I was like, he's not talking to me about toys, what am I thinking? Uh and I was like, Oh, he's gonna ask me if I want to write a book. And I um I was like, Well, what would I want to write? And I was like, well, salmon twitch. I love salmon twitch, so I'm I'm gonna like be like, yeah, what does it take to get me salmon twitch? And we got on the phone and you know, small talk for a minute and a half, and he said, So I'm just calling to see if you wanted to take a shot at writing spawn, taking over Spawn. And so my Salmon Twitch thing got thrown out immediately. And I just was like, Yes, I do, I do want to do that. But it hadn't even occurred to me that that, even vaguely occurred to me, that that was gonna be an option, that that was a thing we were gonna talk about. Um, and he didn't beat around the bush. Todd doesn't really do that, so he just said, Do you want to take over Spawn? And then we talked, I think we were on the phone that first call for a little over three hours, just talking about Spawn and and what he thinks it is and what he wants it to be and what I think it is, and um, you know, think what I believe a comic should be. And I, you know, was asking a bunch of questions, and and then, you know, I took three or four days to write down some notes, and then we jumped back on the phone for another three-hour call. And um, we did that for a few months of me just being like bouncing ideas off of him and asking questions until I had a pitch, and then I sent him my pitch and um he hated it. And uh he just he just said no. And like he's been so forthcoming with his feedback that I immediately was like, uh-oh, like I think I just got fired. And I called him and was like, Yeah, can you give me anything else besides no? And he was like, Yeah, this just feels like you're trying to write like me. And I said, Well, yeah, it's your book, it's your character. Like I am trying to write it like you. And he said, if I wanted a book written by me, I'd write it. Like, I hired you because I wanted a book written by you. And uh that just blew my mind. That's not something that editors or IP holders or any of those people say a lot. Um, and so I went back to the drawing board, threw everything I had out, started the whole process again, and came through and pitched him what I'm doing now. And and yeah, he loved it. He was really excited and it he was throwing out ideas, and I was throwing out more ideas. And but basically the skeleton was that second pitch, and here we are now.

Badr Milligan 1:12:21

What I appreciate a lot about Todd and Spa, I I'll be honest, I haven't read Spawn in like years. This does pique my interest, but what I really respect I think the last Spawn comic I bought was 300 because it was such a monument. It was like, whoa. I forget what the the stat is. It's like the longest running creator-owned superhero comic, something to that. Yeah, yeah. Um, but what I've always respected, aside from just Todd being a fucking awesome businessman, is that he's never really fallen into the trap of like relaunches or new number ones and a legacy numbering. It's always been like, no, we're gonna continue on this train and we'll have jumping on points, but you know, the the numbering is the numbering. I I guess what's it like being the bridge? You know, you you're bridging, it feels like you're almost bridging the gap between the book's past and the future, right? Like, not just like longtime fans, but this an opportunity for like new fans to also jump in. I guess what can both sides of the fence expect from from your new era, from this new world?

Matthew Rosenberg 1:13:15

Yeah, yeah. I mean, that was really important to me. I'm a longtime Spawn fan. Um, so I did not ever want to, there was no point in my head where I was like, we should throw out everything that came in the past. Like, I love what's come in the past. Um, I think what Todd has built is just a monument to everything comics can be. You know, growing up for me, uh, numbering didn't mean anything. You jump on when you jump on and you figure it out. Um the big two have really dissuaded people from that, from understanding that that's how comics can be and should be. Um, and so I think spawn feels very intimidating to people when it doesn't have to be. It is also a very dense and very lore-rich book. So I think people are very intimidated, and I was very aware of that. So my idea was how can I do something that is for people who've been reading for 375 issues and read every, you know, read Gunslinger Spawn and read The Scorched and read Medieval Spawn and every spin-off book? Um, how can I give them something that they've never had before, but is still in the spirit of the book? And for people who stopped reading at issue 100 or stopped reading at 300 or never read it, how can I make it so this is accessible? And that was my goal. That was my entire math problem is how can I make a book that is literally for uh die hard fans and people who've never heard of the character? And that's uh the solution we came up with is is a simple one. In issue 375, which is um Todd and Brett Booth's last issue for now, um myself and Steven Segovia have a five-page story on the back of it that sort of sets things up. And you meet a you meet a kid, something happens to him that is going to be shaping the world, um, shaping his world and and a hint of things to come. Then a few weeks later, King Spawn 55 comes out and we've jumped forward a year in time. We're a year past there. And then when King Spawn 376 comes out, it's also in that year jump. So that in that year gap, um there's some big things that happen and some little things that have happened. And I mean, I can just say basically um the entire history of Spawn, there has been a war between heaven and hell, and Earth is the battlefield. They're fighting for the souls of humanity, and they're using us as the soldiers in this war. And Spawn is a was created as a soldier for hell, and he's switched sides and he's you know stopped fighting, but he's always in this war. We've all always been in this war. Uh, in our time jump, the war is over and heaven and hell have left. That is not in the story anymore. Um, what has taken, what has happened in its place is that um there's a power vacuum from heaven and hell, but more than that, everyone on earth knows that heaven and hell were real and that they don't matter anymore to them. So it's created this global crisis. There is an economic collapse, there is an epidemic of crime because there is no moral law backing our laws, there's no reward for being a good person, there's no penalty for being a bad person. You just have this life. People are taking what they want, doing what they want. Businesses are closing, people are quitting their dangerous jobs, um, addiction is skyrocketing, people of faith are really rattled and depressed, and people who didn't have faith are also questioning their existence. So there's this massive depression, and in that time, spawn has vanished and no one knows where he's gone. So that is the one-year jump. So when you come into the book in King Spawn 55 and Spawn 376, all you need to know is that there was a war between heaven and hell at one point. It's over. There was a guy named Spawn, he's gone. Um, and from there, what we're doing is we're gonna be introducing new characters, new villains, um, new, new allies of spawn. Spawn is gonna come back, obviously, and he's gonna be a little different. There's gonna be a different power set, there's gonna be a different, he's gonna have a different mission, uh, a different, a whole different kind of feeling to him. And so that's that's what the book is. And the two books, Spawn and King Spawn, are are concurrent stories that tell sort of different parts of his mission.

Badr Milligan 1:17:24

This sounds so fucking radical, like radical with a capital R. But it's got me thinking something that tracks with with you, Matt, and and you know, your bibliography is you're not afraid to tackle uh big stories that have existential elements to it that ask like big questions. I I guess how do you keep yourself like does does it ever I guess do you ever get uh does it ever affect you emotionally working through some like writing these scripts, exploring these characters, getting into the heads of these different voices and characters, like and if so, how do you, I guess, like unplug or or step away and like you know, just I don't know, keep some sort of semblance of like happiness and you know uh and whatnot? Uh no, I think it's the opposite.

Matthew Rosenberg 1:18:08

I think I'm working through all of the big things in the work. I think that, you know, um honest work is personal work, and I always try and make honest work. I think that I'm dealing with things, and if you know me well, my close friends could say, like, oh, well, this book is about this. This is this time in his life, and this is what he was dealing with. And um and so, like, no, the the making making I don't get so sad I have to go to therapy because of what I'm writing. The books are the therapy for what I'm actually going through. So I don't, I mean, it it's intense to sometimes be so locked into the stuff, and I have to wake up and think about it for 16-hour workday and go to sleep and dream about it, and that's sometimes my my lot in life. But like I love my job, so that's not a bad lot in life. And yeah, I it's just me processing it, and and my escape from that is I mean, I have a terrible work life balance, so my escape, the thing I do for fun is read comics. So when I'm too burnt out making comics and my comics have been too intense, I go and I read someone else's comics.

Badr Milligan 1:19:24

Yeah. Damn. I appreciate that honest answer, man. I'm I'm also glad to hear that it's uh that that writing is therapeutic too. Um I and and hopefully my the question didn't come off rude, but uh No, no, not at all. That was a great answer. Uh I guess, you know, uh to wrap this up, um, you just mentioned that, you know, you read other people's comics earlier in the conversation. You mentioned, you know, you take pride in being an evangelist for comic books. I would like to uh end this conversation by asking you to recommend some other comic books that people should be reading. Like, what are some of your favorite comic books that you're not currently writing right now that you think more people should check out?

Matthew Rosenberg 1:19:59

Uh all right. Let me think. Uh we'll start big. I really love The Absolute Line. Um, Batman, Wonder Woman, Superman, Martian Man, Hunter. I love those books a lot. Um, I think they're very fun. Uh I'm loving Cyclops at Marvel. Cyclops is the best best book Marvel's publishing by Leaps and Bounds in my mind. It's it's my favorite thing they've done in a while, and and I I love it a lot. Um Exquisite Corpses has been great. It's a lot of buddies doing that book, and I I really like it. I'm very excited for the spin-offs. Um, I'm really excited for Absolute Green Arrow to go back, but since Pornsac works on corpses and ad, I can say both uh anything Pornsac does is amazing. Um I really uh I've been loving the Phantom of the Opera has been great. Um we were talking about it beforehand. It's not a new book, but uh anything David Lapham does to me is a must-read. And so Stray Bullets, if you've never read Stray Bullets, that is a must-read for me. Um The New Powers, we talked about that too. But uh Powers 25 is amazing. Um I don't want it to end. I love it so much. Most of my own reading. Um I read a book called Mr. Boop recently. That's a uh Silver Sprocket book about um Betty Boop's husband. And uh he's just a regular guy. He works at a cars are great. He works at a sandwich shop, at a chain sandwich shop, and he's married to Betty Boop, who's you know the most famous cartoon in the world, and he he doesn't think he can sexually satisfy her, and he has a lot of crisis about that, and crisis about how he loves her so much. And um is a lot of one page one page like strip jokes.

Badr Milligan 1:21:42

And there's these are great.

Matthew Rosenberg 1:21:44

Yeah, Mr. Boop I love so much, and there's just there's one that I I literally like probably sent it to half of my friends at various times, where he just goes into a divorce attorney's office and he hands him a gun and he says, if I ever come in and say I want to divorce from Betty Boop, I need you to shoot me. And that's it. That's all and it's just the funniest thing I've ever read. So I'm a big evangelist for Mr. Boop. Um, yeah, I mean, I don't know. I read so much stuff, I'm trying to think. Uh I just read recently a book called The Smell of Starving Boys, um, which is a Western that I really, really loved. Beautiful, surreal, sad, spiritual Western. Um, if you want more Westerns in your life, that's that's a must-read. Um yeah. Uh Power Fantasy is great. People should be reading the Power Fantasy from Image. I love that book.

Badr Milligan 1:22:35

Matt, you are uh uh you are in tune, man. And I I love the range of books too. Right now I'm like I'm now like trying to simultaneously like scroll through Silver Sprockets like uh page because they've got a way more comics than I thought they did.

Matthew Rosenberg 1:22:46

Oh yeah, everything Silver Sprocket makes is awesome. Yeah, I uh I I have a little subscription to Silver Sprocket. They offer a little subscription and they send you everything they put out.

Badr Milligan 1:22:54

Oh, that's dope.

Matthew Rosenberg 1:22:55

And so I get everything. I bought Mr. Boop because it came out. I bought it before the subscription, but I love Mr. Poop so much. Uh I had Mr. Boop in singles, but then they had a nice hardcover and I was like, well, I need it in the hardcover because I love it so much. Um I really like you know what I've been really reading and and loving, and I can't wait for it to come out in comic shops so I can buy it again, is the Three Worlds Three Moon stuff.

Badr Milligan 1:23:15

Um I am so excited for that to get a a wide general release. I'm a Mike Del Mondo super fan.

Matthew Rosenberg 1:23:22

Sure, for sure, yeah.

Badr Milligan 1:23:23

I cannot wait.

Matthew Rosenberg 1:23:24

Mike Del Mondo's a genius, Mike Collison's a genius, Nick Spencer's not a genius, but he's pretty smart. Uh John Hickman's a genius. It's yeah, and it's amazing. It's world building and stuff. Like if you're a nerd for sci-fi at all, it's like a sci-fi dream because it's just the scale of it is so big and crazy, and so many awesome people work on it. So I'm very excited for those books for sure.

Badr Milligan 1:23:44

Hell yeah. Not like my reading list needed any more entries. I've got uh an insane to read pile, but a lot of those things I took note of here. So thank you for that, Matt. Sure. And I think with that being said, we got an episode. Ladies and gents, this is the Shore Box Podcast, and we just finished talking to Matthew Rosenberg about a little bit of everything, right? We talked about the Wu-Tang clan. We talked about the Wu-Tang clan this episode. We talked about his brand new sci-fi ongoing comic series, If Destruction Be Our Lot, issue one, available right now at your local comic shop. We also talked about his upcoming work in Spawn, all right? Spawn 55 and Spawn 376 hitting comic shops in May and June, respectively, uh, and a whole bunch of other stuff, all right? Um, so check out what he's got going on. I'll have links to uh Matt's social media and website in the episode show notes. Uh, you should also check out his podcast too, Ideas Don't Bleed. All right, it's a damn fine podcast. That'll be linked in the show notes. Um Matt, you've been great. Uh, this has been a really wonderful conversation. Seriously. Do you have any parting words, any shameless plug before we wrap up?

Matthew Rosenberg 1:24:44

You know, it's right after Easter. And uh it's right after Easter, right? I'm not crazy about that. If you can still find marshmallow peeps, if you can find them on sale, put those in a hot chocolate. Like get a hot cocoa, get a Swiss mist, whatever your hot cocoa is, throw a peep in there. Peeps are pretty gross, but in a cocoa they're great.

Badr Milligan 1:25:02

I have actually had that and i co sign. Uh normally I don't fuck with peeps at all. No, they're bad. Come on, man. Hot cocoa just makes anything great. So that's true. That's true. With that being said, folks, you got your marching orders. Uh buy some peeps, drink some hot cocoa, go buy if destruction beer a lot. That's what I got for you this episode. Thank you so much for tuning in. You guys are the best. Peace.