Joshua Williamson 0:00

In this episode of the short lines. Sometimes it's tough because you get caught up in and you'll hear this from people about work for higher comics, comics in general, but you're told a lot what comics should be constantly. And what ends up happening is you end up eliminating what comics could be. And then because you're constantly hearing that, whether it's from editorial or other voices in your head or voices around side, it's actually limiting.

Badr Milligan 0:53

Hello again. Welcome back and thanks for pressing play today. If you're brand new, welcome to the show. I'm your host, Bodder Milligan, and this is the Shortbox Podcast, the comic book talk show where we bridge the gap between the panels of your favorite comics with the people who put their blood, sweat, and tears into making them. This is episode 498, and today's guest is comic writer and world builder Joshua Williamson. If you go on Google right now and search for hardest working man in comics today, results may vary, maybe you'll get something else, but I'm telling you right now, a big old picture of Joshua Williamson will be the top result. And honestly, that's only a slight exaggeration. Joshua is writing not one, not two, but three ongoing comic series. One for each of the three major comic publishers at that. I'm talking G.I. Joe for Image Comics, the main Superman ongoing series for DC, which he's been writing since 2023, and most recently in January, he returned to Marvel Comics after a 10-year-long hiatus to write and launch a brand new Iron Man series alongside artist Carmen Carnero, which is up to issue 4 at the time of this recording. And that's just talking about his recent work. You can't bring up Josh Williams' name and not mention his iconic 101 issue run of Flash and his creator-owned work such as Ghosted, Earth Right, and Nail Fighter, which hopefully we'll get into this episode. It's a lot to cover. But before we get into that, I want to give special recognition to our amazing sponsors who help us keep the lights on. Big shout out to our sponsors, including Gotham City Limit Comic Shop, the best comic shop in Northeast Florida. Visit the shop for yourself here in Jackson, Florida on Southside Boulevard, or buy comics from them online at GothamCityLimit.com. And also shout out IDW Publishing, the company that publishes great comics like TMNT, Beneath the Trees, and Godzilla. Find these great comics from IDW at your local comic shop or buy them directly from IDW at IDWPublishing.com. Once again, big shout out to our sponsors, Gotham City Limit and IDW Publishing. Now, without further ado, let's bring on our guest of honor today, riding Iron Man, Superman, and G.I. Joe at the same damn time. Short box nation. Please welcome to the show, Joshua Williamson. What up, Joshua? How you doing? I'm good. How are you doing?

Joshua Williamson 3:07

Is this really your your so is this your 498th um podcast?

Badr Milligan 3:11

Yeah, you'll either be either 498 or 499, depending on um uh how the the the schedule goes. But yeah, it's oh man, that's awesome. Thank you. Um congratulations. You're so close to 500, dude. That's dope. Thank you, thank you, thank you. Don't ask me what I have planned for the 500 because it feels me to dread. I bet.

Joshua Williamson 3:30

It's funny, yeah. Planning ahead is a funny thing. Yeah, it dude, it's funny though when you're listening to the stuff like that I've I've done or worked on. I know I do a lot. I know I've always done a lot. And it's funny, I feel like the last two years, you know, I've definitely cut back a bit, like publicly cut back, I feel like. But I'm always doing a lot, like, because yeah, there's so that the ongoings, you know, it's G.I. Joe, Superman, and Iron Man. But it's like I'm also doing uh Wolfman mini-series for Skybound, the Universal Monsters ones. Yeah, yeah. That's come out in June. I work on a bunch of little stuff for DC. I also do the consulting work for DC, which we could talk about if you wanted to.

Badr Milligan 4:12

I absolutely want to hear what it's like being a consultant for a company like DC. Uh it's it's weird.

Joshua Williamson 4:20

It's weird. But uh uh, and then also, dude, like the amount of like secret projects I work on, like Legion of Superheroes is gonna launch soon.

Badr Milligan 4:30

Wait, so so um you just you said yeah, you said that you were cutting down, but now you're listening like the wolf man. No, secret projects.

Joshua Williamson 4:38

I I cut down, I feel like I cut down two years ago a little bit. Yeah, two years ago I cut down a little bit and then I ramped back up. Like I recognized where some of my burnout was coming from, and so I I cut back and then gradually just ramped it right back up. And I mean, it's kind of crazy. I feel like next year I was I haven't done the math yet. I have a so in my office, I have this um 100-inch whiteboard, and I use that for mapping out a lot of stuff. Like when we did DCKO, I took a picture of it, and one of these days I'll post it. But I the whole board was just covered in the planning of DCKO from beginning to end. Like it was like every little piece of it and all this stuff, all how all the fights were gonna work, everything. But on the far right side, I have like my schedule lined up and it's lined out all the way until like the end of 28, like to 2028. So it shows me where I'm working stuff, you know. And I look at that and I'm like, man, if you think I'm busy right now, when you see next year, you're gonna fuck out crazy person. Like you're gonna be like, How are you doing this? I'm like, I don't sleep. That's all it is.

Badr Milligan 5:39

I need to get my ass into gear. I'm sitting here, like, what am I gonna do three episodes from now? And you've got your 2028 plan. That's that's insane.

Joshua Williamson 5:46

Yeah, I know, I know. It's crazy. Like, I do, I I couldn't, I could. If if things are going as planned, I could literally tell you what I'm working on in like the summer of 28. And there's other stuff, yeah. There's other things. I was created own books that I'm I'm you know putting together and things like that. So it's like, yeah, I'm always I'm always doing a lot. That's just my nature. I don't know.

Badr Milligan 6:04

Yeah, you know, on this topic, I I want to ask, uh I didn't get a chance to ask before we hit record. Are you are you based out of Portland still? Are you still in Portland? Yeah, okay, absolutely. Well, then that leads me to my uh very important question here on how busy you are. What's in the water in Portland? Because I found a list online of like all the comics. Yeah, it's like Alex Ross, Brian Michael Bendez, Rick Remender, Mad Fraction, Kelly Sudakonic, Jeff Parker. I mean, like, and then obviously, like you, what is it about Portland that you think attracts or supports so much like comic book talent?

Joshua Williamson 6:36

Well, the ironic thing is I moved here because of Rick Remender, and then a year later Rick Remender moved away. Rick Remender is back in LA, actually. Um, he has been for almost 10 years now. But so uh man, so almost 20 years ago, almost 20 years ago, Rick Remender wrote an article for CBR about Portland and how Portland was becoming this comics hub, right? And so it's like outside of LA and New York, Portland has the largest comics community. Like the majority of people work here. And you know, I think some of that started off with like Dark Horse and Oni were here. Like I think that's the thing, because you know, one led to the other, right? So there was Dark Horse, and then Dark Horse led to Oni, and there was Top Shelf, and now Image Image has been here for almost 10 years, I think. Um and so you have the publishers here, and then you're just having creators, and then I think the the creator who moved here that really started the um the the trek here, the one that started people really pulling people in was Bendis. Like once Bendis got here, because you're talking about like there's a lot of legends that are here, you know, like Matt Wagner, and the Bob Shrek was here, is here now, and you know, you had all these people coming here. But I think once Bendis came here, that that really started making it like a magnetic pull, right? And there was a couple of different studios here, and so Brian was here, and then that's when that's actually what got Matt and Kelly here, and like Gail Simone has always lived here, but she lives closer to the coast. Um, Rucca is here, yeah. I forget how Rucca got here. I think he might have got here because same thing, because of Bendis. I think he was in Seattle for a minute. I might be wrong on that because Brewbaker was in Seattle, but like all these people just moved here, and so I read this article from Ruckermander where he was like, This is what's going on, this is why it's here, this is why it's great. And um I moved here, and the first day I was here, I was like, I'm gonna go check out the comic book store. And I walked in this comic book store, and I kid you not, I ran into Jim Valentino and Brian Michael Bendis on my first day here at the comic book store. And then it became this thing where it was like, it really was like I immediately saw how quickly it was like, oh no, there's a big community here because you couldn't go anywhere without running into summer within comics, and and people hung out, there was dinners and signings, and it really was like a community. Um, and so I was I was in it immediately. Now I never see anybody ever because then they leave my house.

Badr Milligan 8:59

Um you have a small comic shop, you have a small comic shop in your office, from what I can tell, and what you've told me so far.

Joshua Williamson 9:05

Yeah, I'll go to the comic store. What's really funny is the comic book store. I'm not gonna say what they are, but the comic book store that I go to here in Portland that's closest to my house, they don't know I'm me. Get out of here. So I can walk in. I think a couple people figure it out. One time I was in there and somebody from Things Similar World was there, and they like which is a major change here, they were there, they didn't work there, but they were there and they saw me interesting and talked to me for a second. And so I was like, Oh, I think one of the employees was like at this other shop, was like, wait, what, you know? Um, but yeah, they don't they uh because I usually come with the kids and I'll buy things, you know, for myself and stuff like that. But uh I mostly I'm there to like let the kids. This is the one that's the closest to me. So I'm like, you know, my kids buy some comics and stuff, and I'll buy stuff and everything, but they don't they don't know it's me. Um, but yeah, dude, like here it's just uh it's just a big comics community, a lot of cool, you know. I there was a guy who um I had met when I was in college, Dennis Culver. So Dennis Culver, who I co-wrote some stuff with, and he's done some stuff at Image and and Marvel, but when he did do patrol for DC a couple years ago, he and I actually met, I mean, I don't even know, like early 2000s, like really early 2000s in California. And so I was here for maybe like a month or two, and I ran into him and I was like, What are you doing here? And he was like, What are you doing here? And I was like, I live here, and he was like, I live here, you know. So it's one of those things where it's like Spider-Man Pointing meeting, yeah. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, it's just a it's just a pull of this location, and you know, I think especially when I was coming up, it was awesome because you get to be around a lot of other people that are coming up, a lot of their creators. You know, I got to listen to people, and and you know, Jeff Parker, who's also a comic book writer and a comic book artist, but I think you know, he was somebody, Steve Lieber, like those guys run a studio here, so it's like I would run to them and just learn, just learn, just learn stuff, hear stuff. And then Bendis, he actually teaches a class at PSU. And his first the first year he did it was 2010. And I was in that first class that first year, and I already written books by then. I was probably I probably had the most experience out of that class in terms of publishing, self-publishing, working. I had already worked in Marvel in DC by then. Uh and so I was in his class and stuff, but yeah, man, Portland. I'm not I I I would blame Bendis on anything else. I'm sure somebody else is gonna be like, blame Mike Richardson, yeah, you know, because I think it's all connected. I think dark horse is really the key element that kicked it off 30 or 40, 40 years ago, really. But yeah.

Badr Milligan 11:38

What what would you say is the most helpful, most important thing, what whatever adjective you want to pick, uh thing that you learned from that class from Bendis?

Joshua Williamson 11:47

Bendis' class, man. There's a lot it took me a long time to learn. It's like it took me, took me a long time to like let the things from Brian's class really click in my head. And you know, there was all kinds of stuff. I mean, dude, there was so much I I learned from him in that class. But I think one of the most important things, and he really he really talked about this a lot. Like it was the thing that he really hit on, which is like being yourself, like your writing, putting yourself on your writing and having your own individual like voice and style, you know. Like, what is your thing? You know, it's like I'm not sure if you're a wrestling fan at all, but it's like have what's your gimmick that separates you from everybody else? You are a wrestling fan, yeah, yeah.

Badr Milligan 12:28

I I actually um okay. So I won't say I'm like I'm there's some serious diehard wrestling fans that I know that would call me out, but I did have a chance to go to Mexico two weeks ago and go watch a lucha libre match live. And it's it was like a religious experience. So like I am a budding. Uh I'm trying to get back into it. I was really uh big into wrestling as a kid, fell off into it. But now I feel like uh, you know, like I I think that lucha libre match, my friends uh being really big fans, you know, it's I don't know. I'm starting to get like revitalized into it.

Joshua Williamson 13:01

That's awesome. Yeah, I I've had moments right now. I'm kind of falling out of it a little bit. Um, but I remember there was a moment where I was kind of down on it. I went to a PWG show in California, and it was like, that's where I got to see this is where you're you're seeing like, you know, this is back in the day. So it's like Seth Rollins when he was in Seth Rollins, you know, he had a completely different name. And then you're talking about like Daniel Bryan. Like I saw him wrestling before he was in the you know, NXT and all that stuff. I gotta watch those guys. And now it's always fun when you get to go to a live event. It's like a whole other it's there's something different about like going to a big WB event, you know, or AEW, like going to a big one. And when you go to one that's like smaller, more intimate with people who are just starting to break in, there's something about that that there's like an energy there that can be really uh really fun. It can help you remember, like, oh, that's why I love this. But uh yeah, so Bendis, yeah, man. Bendis, uh, I think the voice thing was something that he really he really harped on a lot, but it was like, I don't know, man. I could probably I could probably sit down and make a list of stuff because I really did learn a lot from that class. And some of it it took a minute to get there, you know. Also, just like knowing to breathe. I remember it was funny. I was probably a little frustrating for Brian because I remember one time I went up to him and I had done this assignment and I got a good grade on it. And I was like, I want my I want some notes. I want some notes. And he pointed at the grade, and it was like an A, and he's like, There's your note. And I was like, No, man. And I was so very like, oh, you know, I really want to do work for Marvel in DC. And he was very like, you're clearly very ambitious. Like that was the I think I had his biggest takeaway with me, was and we already knew each other a bit before that. Yeah. Um, but I think he was sort of like, oh, you're very ambitious. One of the parts that's I think weird about my career sometimes is because I started trying to break in when I was a lot younger, right? Like, and I found myself in the space with a lot of creators. So, like Jeff Johns, I actually met Jeff Johns when I was like 19 years old. Wow, you know, um, he had just started writing The Flash. So I've known him like his whole career too, you know. So it's like it's interesting. I think a lot of people I met, like Bendis, Kirkman, Brew Baker, some of these people I met when I was like in my late teens, early 20s. And so I think and like like John Layman is a writer who did Chew is the Titans, you know. I've known John since I was like yeah, 20. And like I these are like with John, we used to be an editor at Wildstorm. And so I remember pitching him stuff really early on. So it's kind of weird sometimes when I'm like in the position I'm in now, doing the work I am now. I'm like, I've known some of these people, they've known they've known me since I was a kid. I feel like, you know, it's a weird thing. But yeah, Bendis of the class was really interesting, dude. I have to think about that some more, but I could probably write a list of like the 10 things that I really took away from it.

Badr Milligan 15:46

Well, I mean, uh well, I've got two follow-up questions. Yeah. You know, you mentioned uh, you know, the the advice being, hey, find your voice, find your shtick, what makes you uh, you know, what separates you from the pack? And you know, I I I could have easily like spent another like 10 minutes like naming all of your accolades and all these all these stories you've done, right? Which one would you personally say like is the most you that that really represents your voice or the one where you found your voice?

Joshua Williamson 16:13

I mean nail biter. Nail biter? You know, I think ghosted was the one where where ghosted was the one where I really um started being like, I'm doing it my way. Yeah. Because I think when you're coming in, you know, you you want to be a little bit of a yes man at times, you want to be helpful, you want to be additive, you know. And it's like when I first started breaking in, you know, you're doing every note, you're doing everything you can, you're just trying to say yes to everything, you know, you haven't learned how to say no yet. And I had had some defeats early in my career. Like I had had some, like, you know, got jobs, gotten taken off jobs, felt like I had my foot in the door, I did not have my foot in the door at all, you know, like I had all these things that kind of fell apart.

Badr Milligan 16:53

Yeah.

Joshua Williamson 16:54

And then um there were all these little, little challenges here and there. And I remember with Ghosted, ghosted was the time where I was like, okay, this is me. I'm gonna figure this out. Like I'm gonna, I'm gonna do it this way. This is this is more me doing it my way, not doing it somebody else's way. Because what happens is you sort of start becoming like a mimic because you're just like, well, if if they want me to do it this way, I'll do it this way. And that was always one of my biggest challenges in my career, was like not trying to mimic other people. And so it's like when I started doing ghosted, that was a bit more me being like, okay, this is a bit more me. But how I got to nail biter, it was it was weird because it was like, that was me really doing all the stuff I like to do, being a little bit looser with it, not being as stressed about it. But then also saying to myself, like, I had a bit of a chip on my shoulder at that point because I had struggled with my Marvel and DC work. I couldn't get some attention in the areas I wanted. I wasn't happy with some of the work I was doing. And then Nailbiter, and I was thinking about this earlier today, actually, like Nailbiter got rejected by so many people. Like Vertigo rejected it. Um, you know, Oni uh rejected it. Like all these publishers rejected it. And then I was trying to pitch it to Dark Horse, and Dark Horse just had all these notes and all these things. It just it felt like it wasn't, it was the problem. It wasn't mine anymore. Yeah, you know, it was gonna, and so I was getting frustrated with that. And it was just one of those things where I was like, I it was one of those moments of like, I know I'm right. I know I'm right. Like I know I have this correct. And we did nail butter like my way, like Mike and I. We did our way, the way we wanted to do it. Because Mike Henderson and I had done some stuff before that. So we we knew each other and we knew how we knew how to work with each other. I know what he liked, he knew what I liked. So it hit, and then you know, it became this big hit, and um, it sold really well, and that's actually what got me. You know, it sold really well, it did really well, and then I did birthright after that. Birthright's very me as well, birthright's very personal. And uh both those books are what got me the job on the flash, and it was because there was a guy at DC at the time, he went to Dan DeDio and he showed it was Hank Canals. Um, Hank Canals showed Dan DeDio. He was like, Look at the sales on the trades. Like, look at this, it's trade sales. And that's when Dan was like, Okay, we'll take the meeting. And that's basically what got me a job on the flash. Like that's that's sort of what led, that's what led to it was that. And so um, but yeah, nail biters the one I think to this day. And there there are things here and there, you know, it's tough because when you're working on when you work on something you you don't own and you're trying to have ownership of it, like even while it's on Flash, you know, it's like I don't own Flash, but it's like, and I'm I'm just I'm just another person in that relay race, right? They've handed to me now, it's my job to run it. But I have this I have this thing I can tell you about crater-owned and and and working on the license books and doing work for hire books, is like you are you are babysitting somebody else's kid, that is not your kid, you know. So it's like you can take care of that kid as much as you want. You do not own that child, you are babysitting that kid, and that's how you are taking care of that kid, and that's how I always see working on those things. But when you are doing a crater-owned book, that is your baby. Like, that's a whole other, whole other world of things to get into. But so even when I was on a flash and stuff like that, you know, there's other there's other forces at play, there's other things you gotta consider, there's other creators, editorial, all these different things come at you, and then you're just trying to navigate your way through. So it's like there are times flash is like oddly almost autobiographical at times. Um, but when you look at things, you know, I think even like Damien, like when I was doing Robin with Damien, and then you do things like now with Superman. I think Superman is probably the one of the more me books at DC in a way that I've done. Um but yeah, I mean, Yellby is probably the most like this is it, and and trying to remember that sometimes is it can be challenging because you get caught up in sometimes it's tough because you get caught up in, and you'll hear this from people about work for higher comics, comics in general, but you're told a lot what comics should be constantly. And what ends up happening is you end up eliminating what comics could be, right? Because people are constantly telling you what it should be. And then because you're constantly hearing that, whether it's from editorial or other voices in your head or voices from outside, it sometimes can be limiting. Um, and I find that more so with work for hire than anything else. Yeah. Oh, it's interesting. It's something I I keep an eye on when I'm working.

Badr Milligan 21:19

Josh, I got so many follow-up questions in my head. Sorry, go ahead. I'll stop talking about it. No, no, no, no, no. I'm like, man, my man is cooking right now. He's in this stream of consciousness, he's uh like we're being reflective. I love it. But man, I would be remiss if I didn't bring up that when Nail Biter came out, which I believe the first issue came out 2014. I think I was still working at a I was still working at the comic shop. Uh uh big shout out, R.I.P. Universe of superheroes here in Jacksonville, Florida. I was working there. I want to say either that was towards the tail end or in the middle. I for I forget. But I remember when Nailbiter came out, and I'm being a little uh vulnerable here, uh, as someone that used to His nails like a lot. You know, I was a nervous nail biter. I could not read that story. It was like too personal for me, even though we sold so many fucking copies of nail biter. Um, I I personally was like, nah, this is too close to home. I will admit to you, I did not read the first trade until maybe a couple of days ago. And I was like, God damn, this shit is great. My jam from you personally was birthright. Bro, when birthright came out, I was collecting every issue. I I forget where I stopped, but man, I loved birthright. It was like the fantasy element. Uh, Andrea Bresson, I think that was his name. Bresson art was stupid incredible. And then like there was this noir mystery aspect to it, man. I I loved it, Birthright. And I remember when Nailbiter came out. Uh, and you brought up Flash. That was another series that we could not keep in the shop at all. And it was one of my uh my bet big shoutouts to Drew, my best friend, uh, one of the biggest Flash fans I know. He praised your Flash fan every or series every month. He was a huge fan of it. And I was talking to him today about it. I'm like, dude, I'm interviewing Joshua Williams. And he's like, bro, come on, you gotta ask him about this, you gotta ask him about that. Um, and he, you know, he brings up the Flash series, and I was like, Yeah, I just learned that it's like it ran for a hundred issues. And I was like, Can you name someone else that's done that in the last decade? And we could not bring up it was hard for us.

Joshua Williamson 23:23

I could tell you who's done it. I can tell you who's done it.

Badr Milligan 23:25

The only name I could bring up, let's see if it's the same. Let's say it on the count of three. One, two, three. Todd McFarlane. Chason Aaron. Jason Aaron.

Joshua Williamson 23:32

No, Jason Aaron. Jason Aaron wrote over 100 issues of Thor total. If you add everything up, it's over 100. It's like 100 and something. Okay. Todd McFarlane, you're right. Todd McFarlane has written. Well, it's weird, right? Because he would have go, he would have, he would have guest writers on spawn.

Badr Milligan 23:48

Yeah.

Joshua Williamson 23:48

He would have guest riders. Like right now, you know, I think. Yeah, Rosenberg has taken over the main book and King Spawn, right? Yeah, okay. Uh I see where you're going. Yeah, yeah. Jason Aaron. Jason Aaron did over, I think, uh, like a little over 100 issues of Thor when you add everything up from like, yeah, you have like Thor's, Durant, Secret War, and you have Mighty Thor.

Badr Milligan 24:09

Yeah, that's a good point.

Joshua Williamson 24:10

All the different Thor's. It gets, it gets, I think, I know it's over 100, but I don't know the exact number. It's not as many as I did, because I actually did, I think total, technically it's 101. And then it's like if you include annuals and specials and all this stuff, then it's like 109 or 10 or something like that.

Badr Milligan 24:26

I'm curious, uh, how much of that, like, you know, we're talking about you finding your voice. At what point in the in the totality of Flash, 101 issues plus annuals and all of that, did you feel like you entered, like, did you ever hit autopilot mode at some point? Like, did it ever get like pretty easy, or was it or was it like even more challenging because you're like, fuck, I'm like running out of ideas?

Joshua Williamson 24:50

I never ran out of idea out of ideas. The biggest challenge on Flash was that it was a double ship and I had to write it out of order. Oh wow. So what happened is that like, yeah, so if Howard Porter, so how reporter, you know, if if we wanted to have him do four, five, six issues in a row. So, like, you know, I want him to do uh flash war, right? And so he has to do flash war. Okay, well, that means I gotta start writing flash war in like let's say it hits in June. Okay, well, I gotta start writing in October, but that means I'm writing it in advance. So basically, I was writing flash. Let me get this right. So I'm writing flash 38 and 47 at the same time.

Badr Milligan 25:33

That's insane.

Joshua Williamson 25:36

So it meant outlining, it meant it was difficult to pivot. It meant that sometimes, you know, some issues would breathe, some issues would get smashed a little bit, you know. Um, so it was weird. I it was never easy. I don't think I ever got an autopilot. There were tricks. There are tricks you could pull, you know, you could be like q-paste spread, flash running, you know, like things like that, you know. Uh but you could imagine whatever.

Badr Milligan 25:58

I imagine there was a lot of that. Oh, there's a lot of those.

Joshua Williamson 26:01

There's a lot of those. I think I joke. That's my joke about the relationship between writers and artists, is that like an artist is gonna spend a fucking week on that. And I'm like flash running, two pace spread, you know, take me all of like 10 seconds to write that page.

Badr Milligan 26:14

That's hilarious.

Joshua Williamson 26:14

Yeah, uh, but you know, same thing. I mean, I don't do a lot, I don't do a lot of two page spreads, two bands flying pages, but but you know what I mean? It's it's like that. But uh no, it was never, it was never uh easy on that one. It was always tough. I never felt like I necessarily there are arcs I like more than others, you know. Um, there are some I really enjoy, but that's part of the problem was we were having to do these out of order. And then obviously, you know, you have a lot of editorial interference, you have people, you know, you got things going on, companies pivot, things change. All of a sudden it's like, oh, well, this book's doing XYZ. So, you know, uh, you gotta be mindful of those things, you know. Um, and I'm very much a believer of like I want that book to take place in the DC universe, not be not be siloed off. So that means that like if something's happening over here in the DC universe, I want to reflect it, you know. So that that was the challenges. Yeah.

Badr Milligan 27:05

On the topic of that, I I've been dying to ask you this question about continuity. I've read uh I was reading an article, and you mentioned that yeah, you said, hey, I'm uh quote, I'm personally obsessed with continuity, but I've grown up to be like I can honor it and then move forward, et cetera, et cetera. I'm currently reading this book called All of the Marvels by Douglas Wolk. Um and Yeah, I know Doug. Yeah. He's from Portland too. God damn it. The Portland connection goes deep, baby. Portland Mafia. So I guess for anyone that is not familiar with this book, uh, Douglas Wolk is the author. He took on the this insane task to read every single Marvel comic from like from the beginning to 2017, I think was his cutoff. He had some other uh criteria, but all in all, he ends up reading over 27,000 Marvel comics. And the book is about his experience, what Marvel Comics can tell you. And I I love the way that he frames Marvel comics and continuity, where it's like, yeah, there's 27,000 issues, but it's one massive story that spans 60 years, multiple writers, like it's one kind of this one ever-evolving organism. And, you know, the baton gets passed, layers get added to it. I'm just curious to hear like uh how you approach continuity and if your thoughts on it have changed any, you know, being so ingrained with you know, a character like Flash or writing Superman of so much continuity.

Joshua Williamson 28:26

I have maybe mixed feelings on it now. I think I think you should always honor what has come before and try and not be dismissive. Like there's a difference between well, okay. So one thing with the Marvel thing is funny, is I mean, Marvel is the longest ongoing narrative story in history.

Badr Milligan 28:44

Yeah.

Joshua Williamson 28:45

You know, it just is. And there there's pros and cons of that. But so my take on is this is that I I think it's disrespectful to completely ignore something, completely ignore it. Or or or um dismiss it. Like there's a difference between you know, there there are times in Superman where it's like I'm not gonna mention every single time Superman has done something, right? Uh I can't. There's no way, right? You know, um, there's stuff right now with Superboy Prime that, you know, I will find a time and a place to mention certain things from the past, but I'm also not gonna negate it, I'm not gonna ignore it, I'm not gonna like put it down necessarily. Um I'm I'm weird about it because I feel like I'm a little bit less precious about the past than I used to be. But there are times every once in a while, like, you know, I was on a Zoom on Wednesday. Tyler was there for this, and one of the editors started talking about the order of events of um when Secret Origin started for uh Green Lantern, Secret Origin. And I was like, actually, you know, I was like, this is how it went. It was Rebirth, then it was Green Lantern, and Secret Origin was like later, you know, like in the run. It wasn't it didn't start with Secret Origin, they did Secret Origin later in the run. And um because I I couldn't let that go. Like, I was like, no, no, I gotta, I gotta set the record straight.

Badr Milligan 30:07

Yeah.

Joshua Williamson 30:08

Um, so it kind of depends, dude. I mean, I think that like it's tough, dude. I think it's impossible to cover everything. You can't. I I I've had this conversation with other friends, and I was thinking about this earlier today, where it's like, there are times I'll be in the room and we're talking about ideas to the future, and somebody's like, Oh, we did this, and I'm like, DC did that 10 years ago. Oh, DC did that 15 years ago, or somebody did that story 30 years ago, and a few different creators who I'm friends with have been like, you gotta find a cutoff. Like, you gotta be like, it's okay if it was just more than 10 years ago. Yeah. You know, it's like, because you know, comics is kind of always does repeat itself. It's almost built into comics at this point. You're gonna repeat yourself in comics, and you have to be able to make peace with it. And so I think I'm better now at making peace with it than I was in the past. I think in the past, I was very, I mean, you can see in the flash run. The flash run is very continuity heavy. Um, Damien was less so, uh, Robin was less so. And Shoot Man, I mean, it's interesting because I definitely go back and look at stuff, but I had a rule on Superman to not try and touch on any of the continuity pieces that like Grant or Jeff did. It was much more about trying to find my own path on it. If anything, it's more influenced by the Dan Juurgens, you know, triangle era of the 90s than anything else.

Badr Milligan 31:21

Yeah.

Joshua Williamson 31:21

Um, but even then, there are times like I'm doing research on something, I got to go back. I have a I have a comic on my desk right and I'm not gonna show you what it is, but I had to go back and read uh a comic from 20 years ago. Yeah, 20 years ago, geez, uh, for a continuity thing today. Like just to make sure I wasn't like blowing up something, you know. So it just depends. It's it's it's tricky. It's tricky. I think there's a way of not being precious about it, but also being respectful of it. You just gotta kind of it's it's a definitely a fun line of walk sometimes, but yeah.

Badr Milligan 31:52

Hell yeah. It's a balancing act for sure, I imagine. Uh well, you know what on this topic before we get into uh this next segment, uh you know, you you we mentioned nail biter, your early stuff, your creator on stuff, nail biter, ghosted, buright. Like you you went from indie horror, you know, supernatural, noir guy to the like the architect of the DC universe, or one of them for sure. What was the biggest mental shift in that transition?

Joshua Williamson 32:19

Well, so part is I've always been a DC nerd, but I was a I was a DC and Vertigo nerd. So you're talking about, you know, when I was in my teen years, I was reading all these superhero books, you know, I was reading for Marvel, you know, I was still reading Spider-Man and the X-Men like everybody else, you know, and I would read a lot of other books, but DC was the one where I kind of felt like I was reading everything. Like I was reading everything for DC, every book, you know, I was reading Green Lantern, Wonderland Flash, Batman. I was reading all the Batman books, I was reading everything. But I was also reading all the vertigo books, you know. I was a big preacher kid, you know, I really loved the Invisibles. Like I was reading a lot of that. And two sides of me, it's like I really, really love Vertigo comics, but I also love superhero books. I felt like those books that I was making, they were vertigo books. Like I felt like Ghosted, Birthright, you know, but I felt like those were a vertigo book. That's what I felt was a vertigo book, right? And so that's where my head was. But I still loved superheroes and I still loved those characters. And so here's the funny thing is that the mental shift really happened because of rebirth. Because I had kind of fallen off the DC a little bit during Year 52, and it was very much just doing my own thing. I was happy living in Indyland. I was happy doing my creator own books and doing what I felt was vertigo and you know, doing these kind of books I really loved. When I came into DC, originally my pitch for The Flash was darker. It was much more of a crime book. It was gonna be like a my original pitch. And I remember I had this opening arc that was gonna be this much more grounded kind of crime story. And then my second arc was the Speed Force Storm stuff. And so what was interesting about coming into DC in that exact moment was that I was coming to DC where what Jeff Johns and everybody was doing with Rebirth and all that stuff was very much about returning to core. Like that was that was it. It was it was getting everything back to what this specific version of DC was. And it was interesting because it was actually a version of DC that I really love. That's really where that mental shift happens because it was like I'm coming into DC at a moment where DC is pulling everything back to that core, right? Like, and that's something you know, Jeff talked about a lot was like get everything back to being this kind of like a very specific version of what DC Comics is, right? So when I'm coming into the company again, and in that moment, that's really where that that that switch happens, is that, you know, but that's why when you look at the stuff I was doing outside it, or even when I did like um the rogues book for Black Label, or when I do the stuff I do outside the company, it's still very much in that, like what I guess I consider my version of Vertigo, whatever, it's still in that kind of headspace. Yeah, like I don't really do a lot of superhero stuff outside it, but it's also interesting because when you're working on this some of these superhero books, it is a bit more commercial. Like that's that does lean a little bit in a it should be thing. And so it's an interesting balancing between the two. But it is funny, like, I don't know if I'll ever completely abandon superheroes. If I stop enjoying it, that's a different conversation. If I don't if I if I feel a different kind of struggle with it, but I do think if I ever leave DC, it's not like I'm gonna go do more superheroes, you know. If I ever, if I ever like walk away and stuff completely, it's like because Iron Man is a whole other thing, but it's like if I just suddenly decide like I'm done with superheroes, you know, it'll be it won't be weird at all. I'll just be back at a different home, yeah, just doing my creator home book. So I don't know. I but that's really where the mental the mental switch happened was because literally that's what was happening at DC in that moment was it was like we're getting back to a specific type of DC book, and then it just worked and I enjoyed it. So I was like, I'm staying here. But you know, it is funny how there are times where it's like I I wonder what how how my career would be different if I came back at DC in a moment where they were not doing that, if they were in a different space. Like that's the thing right now, like DC is in such a different space than it was during rebirth, where it is a lot more uh creative and and creator focused, you know, the energy is very different. Yeah, and I think you'll see that when you get when we eventually um reveal more of the stuff for Legion. I think you'll see Legion as being very different. So I don't know, we'll we'll see. Yeah.

Badr Milligan 36:39

Yeah. Look, uh, in terms of superhero stuff, I think you're at the top of the mountain, Josh.

Joshua Williamson 36:43

Oh, thanks, man. I appreciate it.

Badr Milligan 36:44

All right, Joshua. I know that we're working on a time limit today, but I'd be remiss if we did not do my favorite segment of the show, which is the short box friends and family segment. Sure. It's the segment of the show where I shut up for a little bit and let someone else ask the questions. Okay. Uh I've reached out to two people that are big fans of yours to submit a voicemail and a question for you. The first one that we're gonna hear is from Ben Kingsbury. He's the owner of Gotham City Limit Comic Shop, the sponsor of this here's show. They're also the best damn comic shop in Northeast, Florida. I told him you'd be on the show. He's been a huge fan of the G.I. Joe series. So he prepared a question for you to kick us off, right?

Ben Kingsbury 37:19

Hey, Josh, Ben Kay from Gotham City Limit, a comic shop down here in sunny Jacksonville, Florida. Thanks so much for taking some time to jump on the short box podcast. Bodder is the best. So you're writing Superman every month for DC, you're writing the new Iron Man series for Marvel. You're also deep in the Energon Universe, Duke, Cobra Commander, and G.I. Joe ongoing. Man, that's three wildly different worlds at the same time. So, how do you keep all those ideas from bleeding together? Like, what's your system for switching gears so you don't get any Clark Kent hope sneaking into Tony Stark's armor or worse, into Cobra Commander's war room. While we're at it, who's better to write? Heroes or villains? Well, I'll leave you to answer. I just want to say, as a Comic Shop owner, thank you so much for the passion that you put into the industry. We literally couldn't do it without you. And remember, short box nation, we'll always take it to the limit. Peace.

Badr Milligan 38:24

God damn, that was an energetic voicemail. That was a good one.

Joshua Williamson 38:28

Yeah. Uh I'll I'll I'll answer the question. Well, first up, you're listening, Ben. Thank you so much. I really appreciate everything you're saying. And same to you, man. Thank you so much for all your hard work. You know, uh, I worked at a combo, I've told this her a billion times, I think, at this point, but I worked at a comic book for all through high school, all through college. And so I'm very well aware of the like what it's really like on the front line. And it's very much in my mind when I'm working, is what my experience was working in that counter and trying to sell these books and being excited about these books and making sure we always give Scott Snyder as well all the time, is making sure we're giving the retailers something they can be excited about when they're selling those books. So uh I appreciate what you're saying. Thank you so much for your questions. Man, uh villains are always funny to write. Like, I mean, they just are. I feel like either villains or jerk characters, you know. Um, that's why all my books, I always find a way to sneak either a villain as a supporting character um or a jerk character. So you notice like even as far back as Flash, that's why Godspeed plays such a major role in the book. Um, that's why uh Superman I had Lex there from day one, you know, he was a supporting character. Uh with Tony and Iron Man, you know, he could be a jerk at times, but also you got like Madden Mask plays a big role in the book, you know. Um everything I work on, I always have either a villain or like a regular villain character or a jerk character just because it just makes something about it. I think the you know, Superman can be tough sometimes. I I it kind of annoys me, I think. Maybe I shouldn't say annoy when people talk about Superman being easier to write, and I'm like, what? I mean the characters that could do no wrong, a character who's right all the time, who's always does the right thing every time. Um you know, but uh yeah, I like the villain characters. Uh as for the the the universes, this is the thing I think about this a lot where it's like I I talk to people about taking on new projects and stuff, and I'm like, I don't just exist in different books. My brain exists in completely different universes right now. You know, it's like I got the Marvel universe, I got the Energie universe, I got the DC universe, and then I have other books that I work on and stuff like that. I consider them all universes, they are universes, and so that's always the biggest thing. But I just remind myself what the tone, the genre of that universe is, the those characters. I'm not a big fan of um, there's this phrase, uh, like filing the serial numbers off, you know. People will have an idea. There's this there's this thing, somebody talks about this, where it's like they have an idea for Superman and DC would reject it. So they would try to take the idea over to Marvel to do it on Spider-Man. And it's like, you shouldn't be able to do that. Yeah, you shouldn't be able to do that, right? Because if the story is based around that character, you shouldn't be able to do that. And so that's why I don't get a lot of bleed through. I will say, I think I have certain ticks, I have certain things that I love that will that come out through the work like that is an example. Is that like if you look at all my work, there are some like a villain usually operates as a supporting character. Like there, that is something that is there. I usually pick a couple characters that I focus on. Um I have my own little weird obsessions, those make their way through my books. Um, for example, I love haunted houses, just love them. So you'll notice a lot of my work, almost all of it has somebody going to haunted house at some point. Like, so you know, that's even that too. Like, I love horror at the end of the day. Like, I'm a big horror fan. So a lot of times horror makes its way into my comics in some form or another, you know. It's kind of funny. It's like when you when you think about Sam Ramy as a director, and you know, some people know him as like the guy who directs Spider-Man movies, but you know, the rest of us are like, oh no, Evil Dead, you know, Army of Darkness, you know, Dark Man. Like you're looking at these movies, and it's funny when you watch like Spider-Man 2 and then you're reminded, like, oh, that's like the Skyward Horror Director, right? So it's like I feel like there's a version of that in all my work. But yeah, when it comes to stuff, I just keep it is I I kind of dedicate each week to a project right now. I feel like I'm dedicating two projects each week. But those are the those are the pieces that kind of come together, is that I sort of um just keep it separate. I don't you you you have to hear that character talking, you know. That's how I work. Like I gotta, I'm many steps for me in my process, but I gotta hear those characters talking to each other. I gotta hear them and not, you know, I mean, I gotta hear Lex and Superman, I gotta hear them going at it, I gotta hear Prime, and then I gotta feel like I have to see the comic in my hands before I start writing. Like because there's a difference between writing and typing. Like a lot of writing is done on my notebooks, on my whiteboards, in my head. And then the day comes and it's time to type. Usually it takes me like two days to type a script, maybe three days, but it takes me forever sometimes to figure out what it is. But I gotta hear those voices. So once I hear the voices, that's what separates it out is those characters. Like you can't, you can't, you know, like like let's say Superman and Duke have some things in common, but then they don't. Like, because Duke, the way I write Duke is very impulsive, very impulsive. Clark is not impulsive, so sort of balances it out. But there's the answer to those questions.

Badr Milligan 43:26

Solid. Uh, I do want to uh extend a compliment and in terms of voice. I love the voice that you have for Superboy Prime. I just finished reading uh Superman 36 today. Superboy, Superboy Prime time starts here issue. Love it, man. I am a guilty. You know, I'm not even that guilty. I am a Superboy Prime fan. I know that he is kind of polarizing as a character, but contentious to people. Yeah, man. I I'm I'm kind of here for him uh being back in the spotlight. With that said, I want to get into the second voicemail I got for you. I'm not going to tell you who this is because I think you're going to recognize him by voice. So here we go.

Brad Gullickson 44:01

Hey, Bodder. Hey, Josh. It's Brad from Comic Book Couples Counseling. I'm sitting here on my couch. I'm actually lying down on my couch. My legs are kicked up, and all I want to do is talk about G.I. Joe. G.I. Joe is so important to me. It was the first comic that I ever read as a kid. I would not be the person I am today without G.I. Joe. It was issue 104, MD Bright on Art, Larry Hama writing. I'm so thankful that G.I. Joe is back in my life. I love the run that you have been doing with Tom Riley and everybody else. I love the fact that I can go over and still read Larry Hama's run with the real American hero on the stands. Still so cool. I love that you brought Road Pig to the comic book series finally. Road pig was a character that I cherished. I was like nine years old. I was at Chuck E. Cheese. It was my birthday. And my mom and dad got me the Road Pig action figure. He had that like cement block on a stick. I freaking loved that figure. So to finally read that issue, to get to that page turn where you brought Road Pig into Cobra Commander's life during your run. Whoa, what a moment. And so, yeah, I guess what I want to talk about is all these moments, all these opportunities you've been getting to bring in these childhood action figures into your series and give them real life, a new life. What have been the best moments like that road pig moment? What is it like to bring that character into your run, to figure out what that character is going to mean for your narrative? And what characters have you not introduced yet that you're itching to introduce? I know everybody asks you that question. We're asking you again. Uh, I want a new answer. Give me a new character. Give me an obscure G.I. Joe action figure that you want to see on the page. Anyway, G.I. Joe, I'm loving what you guys are doing. Keep it up. And uh thanks for taking the time with my question.

Joshua Williamson 45:58

You know, what's funny about this is I've talked to Brad so many times. I had no idea he was as much of a G.I. Joe fan. Like, I had no that he I don't feel like he's ever told me that. Like we we've we've talked during interviews and stuff. I don't think he's ever outright been like, I love G.I. Joe, I'm a GI Joe fan. Like, you know, he's never said, so that's really funny. Thank you for that. That's that's really funny. I did not know that about Brad at all. Uh, which character? God, that's tough. I mean, well, it's funny we're talking about the moments. I mean, I think for me, the moment that I I I actually really like my first issue at Duke and my first issue of uh Cobra Commander. Solid issues. Like, I think introducing those characters the way we did, I didn't realize what we were doing at the time. I felt like I'm really proud of those issues now. Like I feel like we did something really interesting. And I remember at the time other people would read those for the first time, like friends I had, and they would be like, fuck, these are good. And I'd be like, man, whatever. Just G.I. Joe. You know, I would be like, I love G.I. Joe. I freaking have like a giant thing of G.I. Joe toys over here. Like, I freaking love G.I. Joe. Um, but I remember at the time being like, you know, I I didn't, I didn't see what we were building, really. You know, I feel like, you know, I mean, I also I was watching what Daniel was doing or freaking Transformers, and it was just like every page was coming in, and I was like, so cool. So I don't know. Um, but those moments, I mean, I think Cobra Commander being able to introduce Cobra Commander the way we did and change his character just a slightly, you know, by literally saying, This is a dude who doesn't run away from a fight, he doesn't retreat. And that's the only tweak we're making. And then making him just a nut, you know, like we made him, we we leveled him up. Uh, I think that's probably my most proud thing we've done with G.I. Joe is changing. And the thing is, we've changed some of these characters, but it all feels organic. It doesn't feel like it's contrary, it doesn't feel like we're we're like throwing the baby out with the bathwater type of thing, you know. We're I think we're so true to who those characters are. Who have I not? I mean, we it's funny because Brad knows this. Like me and Tom, we really want to introduce Shipwreck. Like, Shipwreck is one, Firefly is another one that I really want to bring in. Sometimes I want to bring in some of the early 90s, like toxic type characters they created, just because it's like, I think that would be really fun. I think the challenge of of that would be really difficult. Man, there are a few, like like uh Big Boa is one we haven't brought in yet, and we we've almost brought Big Boa in a couple of times, and then it didn't work out. Same with Road Pig. Road Pig was supposed to be in the Cobra Commander series, and then we moved it, and I was happy because the way we introduced Road Pig later ended up making more sense and working. Um, I'm gonna say Big Boa. I feel like Big Boa is one. I'm looking at like the Walla toys in here that I have. You know, it's funny, like I had some thoughts on Mindbender and Sepentor. I have some ideas for them. Uh, I'm not sure we're gonna get to it, though. That's always the thing with this. I'm not sure we're gonna get to it. But I'm gonna say Big Boa. Big Boa is one I think would be really fun. We almost brought in, I don't sure if I should say this yet, because it it it kind of depends. There was a character that's only been in the cartoon, never had toy made ever. I'm not gonna say who it is. I'm curious if your listeners can guess. They only appear in one episode, but they're the villain of that episode, and it is one of the weirdest episodes in G.I. Joe. And I was gonna try to bring that character in, and we just it just didn't work. It just didn't work the way I wanted it to. We ended up doing something different, but I had this whole plan for this one character for a long time. Um, I can tell you off the record later, but uh it was somebody I really wanted, but yeah, there's some G.I.

Badr Milligan 49:39

Joe sleuths listening that has already cracked the code. Uh, but can I just say that as someone that did not necessarily grow up with G.I. Joe and use the the comic series as kind of a launching point for myself, I gotta say, man, uh everything that your friends that you've heard from friends about how I mean, even Ben and Brad, coming, uh, let me say it as a as someone that does not have a ton of like G.I. Joe background, the series is fucking awesome. I mean, uh, I've read the Duke Limited series, the Cobra Limited series. Uh, I I think it's a it's just a solid overall product from the design of the book. I love, love the design of the whole Interjohn universe, the visual identity. Um, the writing obviously is amazing. And can I just say the fact that we that you have given Tom Riley a vehicle to do interiors on a monthly basis is like, I mean, that alone makes a whole Energon series like worth it. That dude is incredible.

Joshua Williamson 50:34

Yeah, working with Tom and working with Andrea, there, that's the best part of working on G.I. Joe, really. And Ben Abernathy, too, is exactly right over there. And, you know, and Sean Makkowitz and Robert and everything, and the fun that we're having building all this stuff. That's probably the best part. That's a good way to put it.

Badr Milligan 50:48

Yeah, if I think the fun and the passion that you guys are putting into it, you know, from your own uh fandom of it, like it it just comes through in the pages big time. Um, I'm I don't know. I feel like a part two needs to happen because I still have so many other questions, but I am sorry, I'm a long talker.

Joshua Williamson 51:06

No, no, no.

Badr Milligan 51:06

This has been a shit ton of fun, and I don't do a lot of part twos. How about we let me try to do uh maybe a lightning round, but I I specifically want to talk about Iron Man. It's the newest thing that you uh that's currently out right now. I mean, I know you got Legion of Superheroes coming out, I think, next month or pretty soon.

Joshua Williamson 51:21

No, that's a while, it'll be a bit long. Perfect.

Badr Milligan 51:23

Maybe that'll be the opportunity for for part two, but let's end it on a high note. Let's talk about Iron Man. Uh, like I said, it is up to issue four right now. You are doing the series with artist Carmen Carnero, which is a fantastic pick. Um, I awesome. I'm to understand that Iron Man was in. I'm sorry, you were inspired to our Iron Man by a combination of two things, from what I could find. A family vacation to Disneyland, and and an idea you had for the character from 10 years ago that you held on to. Can you fill in the gaps of what's missing and how your return to Marvel, after a decade at that, like came to be?

Joshua Williamson 52:03

Yeah.

Badr Milligan 52:04

Yeah, I mean, it was really simple. They just asked me. Well, so had the had they been trying to like bring you on board for a while, and it was just like, ah, the right problem.

Joshua Williamson 52:13

Uh, it was a couple of things. So I went and um yeah, I had this idea for Iron Man about 10 years ago, more than that now, but I had this idea for Iron Man, it was real simple. It was like, what happens? It started with you know, he created the armor when he thought it was gonna die. If that was gonna die again, what would he crave next? That's how it started, right? And then I started thinking about the idea of somebody trying to manufacture. I mean, basically what we're doing the first five issues is is the idea. Like it's that's that's the idea, and then it bleeds out from there, and then there's more there's it's a the the story on Iron Man will be interesting because it is modular and that like the first five issues are a story, issue six is a story, and then seven through a number, and then you know, and it's like there are these like mini arcs, but there's one big Uber story, and the Uber story was the idea that I had, and and there were other things I was obsessed with Marvel and Iron Man and some pieces that I was like, how come they ever did this? Like it was funny. I was talking to them last week about one of the things that that I'm doing, and we were just talking about it, and the editors at Marvel were like, How come no one's ever done this? Like there was stuff in there, they just like they didn't think, but I was I had thought about it. And I have all kinds of I have a Marvel notebook, like just full of ideas that I put down, you know, because that's just how my brain works. You know, I read something, I see something. You know, I remember even when I was reading um Jason Aaron's Punisher, the last one he did. I remember reading that first issue of being like, I was like three pages in, and I was like, you know what's crazy? No one ever brought his family back from the dead, and then I got the issue and I was like, oh, that's what this is about. Like, you know what I mean? So there's times we the information just comes up, right? And I would put in the notebook. Like, I have ideas for Spider-Man, Fantastic Four, all of that. I would just I would just put in this notebook, right? And then um, so yeah, we hadn't so my wife and I used to go to Disneyland every year, and now we go uh almost twice a year, but we used to go every year, and uh we're actually taking a break. We just went in December, so we're taking a break this year. Um we're we're trying to plan a bigger uh Florida trip, that's why. But we went to Disneyland and we got there really early. Um, and we did the whole rope drop thing, whatever, but we did the rope drop at California Adventure. So, you know, we did it because I'm I'm a big I'm a big Disney guy. That's part of it too.

Badr Milligan 54:26

Like, so you know all the apps, you know, all the tips. And my wife is the same way.

Joshua Williamson 54:30

Yeah, I got all the stuff. Yeah, yeah, I got the I got all the stuff, you know. It's funny because Scott, he goes to Disney World, I think twice a year, at least once a year, but at least twice, maybe twice a year. So he knows Disney World really well. We were just talking about this the other day, and I know Disneyland, like the back of my hand. I grew up in California, so I used to go all the time. So, you know, um, and so we were there with my family and everything, and then we went in, and uh, the moment we walked into Avengers campus, and like the music hits, you get you're and now you're in it, right? You're living in Marvel land basically, you know. And I walk in listening to the music, and I was just like, man, am I? I was thinking about it. I was like, I kind of made peace in that moment. I was like, I don't think I'm ever gonna work for Marvel. Like I just, I just it was like a thing, you know. Yeah and then I was there and I was like, I gotta do something. I gotta do something over here. Like, I I just I need to do something. And so I went to um, you know, my exclusive of DC was changing to where it was gonna be a consulting deal. It was not gonna be an exclusive anymore. It was a longer conversation about that we could have. Um, maybe that'll be the thing we talk about next time. But then um, so yeah, I went there, I was just like, man, you know, I don't know. And so I uh talked to Marvel a couple times. I was like, listen, I could probably do one book. I could maybe do one book, you know? And some of the editors would reach out to me, we would talk, and so they would be like, What about this? About this, about this, and I would always be like part of the problem with the schedule. It was like, I'm not sure if I have time, I'm not sure if I have time, or oh, that's not the right fit for me. And then um I got this email from Will Moss, who is one of the senior editors over there, and he was like, What about Iron Man? And part of it was like, Who told you? Because like people who know me know that like I love Iron Man, I have my ideas, and I had this one big idea, this one big story I wanted to tell. And they were like, they did not know that. They were just like, Hey, if we're gonna get them, we're gonna get for some of our main characters. And I asked them, you know, so I got on Zoom with them, I told them the whole idea I had, and they were like, This is awesome. I had a bunch of questions, you know, like I wanted to make sure that nobody was getting fired because of me, you know, that they had already planned on wrapping the previous series and things like that. I wanted to make sure everything was in the up and up, there was no secrets, you know, the other teams knew, nothing weird was happening, and they were like, No, no, no, no, like everything's cool. Like they broke it down for me, and I told my idea, and then it was like, I'm not sure if I can do this. Like it was it became a time issue. It was like, Can I do this? Can I do this? Can I do this? And um I wasn't sure, you know, but then I really felt like I would regret it. I would regret it. And there was a time I was in here and my my son was in here, and I have like a shit ton of Iron Man toys in my office. And my son, who didn't know, he didn't know. He was just like, Dad, you really love Iron Man. I was like, God damn it. And so I was like, all right, so Marvel, we were able to make it work. Um, and they were really, they've been they've been really great to work with. My editors, uh Well Moss and Danny Kazam, they're great, and they've they've been awesome. And then they brought in Carmen. Carmen is awesome, like she's terrific, so good. I've been a fan of hers for so long. Like Captain Marvel stuff, doing you know, Captain America. Like she's great. So it just sort of it just it just worked. And um, I'm really happy with it. Like it's been going really, really well. I have some it's funny because I think that that book is gonna get just crazier as it goes. Like, there's stuff that's gonna happen in Iron Man. People are gonna be like, what the fuck are you doing? Like, I don't know, man. Like, I haven't fun with the character, you know. They're gonna be like, what are you doing exactly? And I'm like, yeah, I know it. I know it's starting in one way, but it's gonna get bigger and bigger and bigger, and then you're gonna be like, What are you doing exactly? Um, but I really enjoy it, but that's basically what happened, man. It was like, yeah, I had this idea for a long time. I've always liked the character. I've been a fan of that character since I was a kid. And then, you know, boom, here's my, you know, my my the family connection and stuff. And the opportunity came and it took me a while. It took me a while, but I was like losing sleep over it. Because initially I was like, I can't, I can't. At time, you know, my relationship with DC. It was like, I'm not sure if I can do this. But then it was like, I was literally losing sleep over it. And I was like, there's no way I can't, I can't take this opportunity. I would regret it. Like, this is what I would regret. Um and uh yeah, but it's been awesome so far. I mean, I really enjoy writing that character.

Badr Milligan 58:54

I think this is applicable to to say here, considering that in the movies they make such a big deal about Tony's heart. You know, it's like kind of a punchline at the end. Um, I think what you just said solidifies or confirms uh an idea, a thought I had about your career and and why I uh why I think you are a writer to watch. You put a lot of heart into it, you put a lot of heart and thought into your projects, and it comes across. And I'm so glad that you got to that I got to hear the story and you share it. Um with that being said, I think this is a perfect place to to put a pin in it for for part one.

Joshua Williamson 59:28

Uh yeah, well, let me tell you one more one last thing about it. Oh, come on, yeah. Uh I appreciate that. And I I you know, I do make an FS. I've had a couple editors at DC actually call me an emotional writer. They were like, that's that. They don't mean that a negative way, but they mean like I, you know, I dump or put your whole shelf into it. Yeah, I feel uh there's this line from the office, you know, Michael Scott, who is like, what's more personal than business? Right? Like, you know, people are just like, Oh, you gotta keep them separate. And he's like, No, what's more personal than business? Like, I think about that shit all the time. Like, because to me, like, I I really, I really love comic books. I love this industry. I love a lot of people that work in it. It's so weird. It's it's such a weird thing how comics is not just a hobby, it is a lifestyle for people. You know what I mean? It is a it is a piece of us. And so when I'm working on these things, that's what it is. It's a piece of me. So it is very personal to me. And so it is like I do put a lot of heart, a lot of thought, and a lot of really a lot of love, you know. And um, I Scott and I come up with this a lot. I am very sincere. I'm not embarrassed of my love for these characters. Damn it, you know. I'm not embarrassed about I love superheroes and I love comic books. I I'm not embarrassed about it at all. And I think I put a lot of that in that work, and so I feel like that's what people pick up on sometimes, is that like we can have a whole longer conversation about that stuff too, but but that's how I feel about it. I really do put it in there, yeah.

Badr Milligan 1:00:54

Amen to that. And uh, I think ending on a Michael Scott quote is the way to go out with this. With that being said, uh, Joshua, this has been uh fantastic. I cannot wait to have you back. Maybe we'll uh we'll arrange something when a Legion of Superheroes comes out. We'll be much deeper into Iron Man um and we'll see how Reign of Superboys uh Superboys ends up. But with that being said, ladies and gents, this is the Short Box Podcast. And we just finished talking to Comic Writer Extraordinaire, Joshua Williamson about a lot, but still so much more to go. We talked about Flash, we talked about his creator-owned stuff, we talked about writing for the love of the game. I mean, uh, we covered a lot of topics. There's still more to talk about. But I hope you enjoyed uh this part one. We'll have part two uh in a couple months. We'll see how that works out. Regardless, I'll have links to uh Joshua's uh profile on social media and website in the episode description, the show notes, give him a follow. Uh make sure uh you keep an eye on all the great things he's got going. Uh-huh. Keep an eye on all the great things that he's writing. I mean, we named three of them so far. He'd mentioned a couple of more to come out in the summer. So stay tuned for what he's got going on. And with that being said, here's my outro. I appreciate you guys. Peace. All right. Let me uh let me press stop on here so it can um upload.

Joshua Williamson 1:02:12

Yep.

Badr Milligan 1:02:14

All right, it's uploading on mine. Yeah, cool. Cool. All right, and yeah, it looks like it needs a couple seconds. Tyler, are you still there?

Joshua Williamson 1:02:22

I think he took off. He's probably like on eight. Yeah, he took off at some point. Yeah, he's good. He's he he he it's nighttime for him, like you too, I imagine, right? Yeah, 720. Yeah, I'm about to ride out too. Um, dude, seriously, this was awesome. Happy birthday to your dad. Oh, thanks, man. Awesome. Thank you, you know, for hanging out with me today. I know you got family stuff going on, so I appreciate you. That means a lot, thank you. You know, taking the time, yeah.

Badr Milligan 1:02:46

Hell yeah.

Joshua Williamson 1:02:47

Um, real quick, so that character in G.I. Joe, it's so silly, dude. It's a character named Game Master that basically was like arcade or mojo. Like in a character, right? Uh-huh. They kidnap this character kidnap. He's a giant, he looks like Kingpin, like he's a big dude. Whoa. And he kidnaps Flint, Lady J, Baroness, and Destro, and he puts him in like an arcade. It's like it's like reading an episode of Xmoth Arcade, right? Um, that is one of the weirdest episodes you can ever watch because it's it's just it's great and it's super fucking weird because he kidnaps Baroness while she's in a hot tub. So the whole episode she's running a bikini.

Badr Milligan 1:03:26

The whole episode. That's one of the images uh I pulled out on Google images.

Joshua Williamson 1:03:30

I'm like, he kidnaps her while she's in a hot tub. So the whole episode she's in a bikini. It's the weirdest episode. And so I wanted to bring Game Master in, and they just didn't it didn't make sense.

Badr Milligan 1:03:40

It didn't work with the are you also bringing this clown dude, Coco?

Joshua Williamson 1:03:44

I guess his no, yeah, Coco. Well, yeah, Coco is a robot. So we I wanted to do that and then we couldn't. Damn. We didn't, we didn't, and I don't think I'll ever I don't think I'll ever be able to. We had an opportunity and I just we we blew past it, so I don't think we'll ever be able to do it.

Badr Milligan 1:03:57

This would be a really dope deep cut, yeah.

Joshua Williamson 1:03:59

It would be a weird deep cut. That was the hope. But anyway, all right, cool. I'll let you go so you can get out of here and get to your family. Yo, take care, dude. Go take my son to uh T Ball. Hell yeah, better. Yeah, we'll talk to Tyler and then we'll figure something out.

Badr Milligan 1:04:10

Done deal. All right, man. Take care. Thanks again.

Joshua Williamson 1:04:12

Hey man, thank you so much.

Badr Milligan 1:04:13

You too. All right, I'll have links to uh Josh Rose's social media, his Instagram page, his website in the episode description in show notes. Uh, you clearly want to make sure that you give him a follow and keep an eye out on all the future announcements and projects he's working on. I mean, he's writing three current runs right now. He mentioned a few future runs, so it's a lot to keep track of. Give him a follow so that way you don't miss out on all these great things, all right? That's what I got for you. Take care of yourselves. Peace.