Zach Norris 0:01

In this episode of the short box. A big thing for me personally was like moving to San Diego, meeting Ben and Bobby, and getting to write for the blog, and be like, oh man, like writing is not just a thing that I could do as a hobby. Like I can actually make money and make connections and do cool shit by writing. And I interviewed Mike Shinoto of Lincoln Park, and then I ended up working for Mike Shinoto of Lincoln Park. I interviewed Kevin Eastman. Like the writing for the hundreds took me places and showed me, like, yo, your writing can take you places. But when the like the idea for comics rule everything around me starts like circling and becoming this kind of thing that's looming over me, I was like, man, this this feels like a book.

Intro Music 0:45

Ladies and gentlemen, Short Box Podcast is recorded live from Jacksonville, Florida.

Badr Milligan 1:08

Yo, Short Box Nation. Hello again. Welcome back. Thanks for pressing play. Thanks for being here. All right. Thank you for pressing play and tuning in and all that good stuff. If you're brand new, welcome to the show. I'm your host, Badr Milligan, and this is the Short Box Podcast, the comic book talk show where we bridge the gap between the panels of your favorite comics with the people who put their blood, sweat, and tears into making them. This is episode 509, and today I'm joined by writer, comic shop manager, and hip hop enthusiast Zach Norris. Zach is based out of San Diego where he helps run Now or Never Comics. It's a fantastic comic shop. I went there for the first time during my visit to Comic Con, so a lot of firsts that weekend. Amazing shop. I talked about it in depth on my episode with David Harper. So if you want to hear more details about my visit to Now or Never Comics, check that episode out. But on top of managing one of the best comic shops that I've been to, Zach is also the creator and writer of the comic book and hip hop zine Cream. Comics Rule Everything Around Me. How fucking it was it's right there. You know, it's one of those names. You're like, it was right there the whole time. Comics rule everything around me. Come on. So yeah, Cream, it's a it's an amazing comic book and hip hop zine. Volume one, which focused on comic book references and nods and hip hop lyrics, was a runaway success. Physical copies sold out. I think it actually might be on this third printing. I know it's available digitally. Uh, volume two is coming very soon. I have a little asterisk there, but we'll talk more about volume two here in a sec. It expands on the visual and thematic blend of hip hop and comic fandom. So take a wild guess at what we're talking about today. That's right, my two favorite things hip hop and comics. But before we get started on that, I want to give special recognition to our amazing sponsors who help me keep the lights on, all right? It's time to pay some bills and show some love to the people who uh show love back. Big shout outs to our sponsors, including our presenting sponsor, coverprice.com. It's the ultimate comic book price guide and collection management tool for comic collectors. You can get cover price for $1 for one month by using the special promo code in this episode show notes. I say it all the time, but it's the truth. I'm not just a champion, but also a client. I use cover price myself for tracking my collection. And you can too for one dollar. Check out the link in the show notes. And speaking about sponsors, we gotta thank Gotham City Limit Comic Shop for the support, too. It's the best comic shop in Northeast, Florida. If you live in Jax, you can go visit them today on Southside Boulevard or no matter where you're at, maybe you're not in Jacks or Florida, you can't make it to Gotham City Limit in person. You can still buy comics from them online at GothamCity Limit.com. And we can't talk about supporters without talking about the loyal supporters over on the short box Patreon, aka the short box patronies, all right? The homies that help keep me motivated, that support what I do. Uh the biggest fans of the short box. I appreciate you guys. Love you guys. Thank you so much for the help. Now, without further ado, let's bring on our guest of honor today. Comics rule everything around him, they rule everything around me, and probably around you two. Short box nation. Without further ado, let's bring on our man Zach Norris to the show. Zach, what up? How are you doing?

Zach Norris 4:19

Yo, yo, Mother, what's up, man?

Badr Milligan 4:21

Man. That was a killer, killer intro, dude. You're so professional, man. Thank you. I appreciate that. Uh, my man Vigo is going to edit all the bad parts and these parts I stumble. So I'm gonna sound real good, but thank you for the compliment. Um can I tell you this might be the fastest uh interview I've ever arranged. I think I drew him on like on a Wednesday. I was like, hey, what do you think about interviewing on you know Saturday? This is the interview I knew I wanted to do. I just didn't think we would uh coordinate so quickly.

Zach Norris 4:52

I appreciate you wanting to do it, man. No, it was we saw each other, what, less than two weeks ago, and then you asked me about a week ago, and I was really just trying to confirm with the family if I could sit down and be uninterrupted for a few hours.

Badr Milligan 5:04

Yeah, yeah. But you know what, but but it feels like we've definitely been in communication for a lot longer, if I'm not mistaken. Here's how I remember us connecting and meeting is I want to say a year ago, maybe two years ago, my man Chris Hacker from the Oblivion Bar podcast shoots me a message and he's like, Hey, this guy named Zach Norris is going to reach out to you uh and tell you about this thing that I know you're going to love. I think he might have even sent me a photo of like cream volume one. Um and I was like, okay, what is it? He's like, it's hip hop in a comic book zine. I'm like, say less. He's already like in my good book, you know. And I mean, since then we've been like going back and forth uh via DMs and sharing stuff. Uh when you interviewed Mike Del Mundo for for sketched, um, you know, that was amazing. So yeah, I guess it was kind of I've been talking about how San Diego Comic-Con with it being, it was just such a big moment for me, right? It was like my first Comic-Con, but also the experience of meeting a lot of internet friends in real life. And I gotta say, you got a lot of swag, man. I was like, man, Zach is even cooler in person. He's got a lot of swag.

Zach Norris 6:10

You're too kind, dude. You're too kind. No, um, yeah, that that sounds about right. I saw Chris last year during Comic-Con. There we go. And I had uh I had made an Ash can uh before volume one. It was really just like a little two-page kind of teaser thing, and um was giving that out to friends and giving that out to people who I thought would be interested uh to try and let people know, like, hey, this is something I'm working on, was giving it out at the shop and bumped into Chris on the show floor. And you know, shout out Chris, Chris Hacker, great dude, great show. Go listen to Oblivion Bar. And yeah, man, that uh from from Comic-Con to then December is when I really, really got like locked in head down, going to work on volume one and released that last year in December on New Year's Eve, actually, and then got volume two out for for Comic-Con this year. And real quick, before I get too too sidetracked here, gotta say, A, thank you for coming by the shop during Comic-Con.

Badr Milligan 7:07

It's a pleasure meeting you in person on the note of coming by on the busiest possible day I could have like, you know, I I mentioned it on the episode with David. I was like, I almost felt stupid for showing up, and they're just about to do a signing with like, you know, James Tanyan and the whole crew, and you guys were having a line form. And but if anything, I I did give you props on this. Was obviously like the timing was a little like, oh shit, okay, he's got a lot going on. So the fact that you even took like five minutes to be like, hey man, what's up? So good to finally meet you. You know, I got a chance to buy volume two from you in person. You even signed it for me. I thought it was a cool experience to be there during such a busy moment, like a big moment for you guys, and to see like how you ran the shop and the team coordinated and how the customers that were there, just there, maybe not involved with the the signing, still were like taken care of and all of that. So it was something interesting to see um you guys at maybe one of your busiest, and uh to see the shop run still really smoothly, you know. If anything, it left me with a really good impression. Like, damn, if this is what it's like on a busy day, like imagine like just a chill day.

Zach Norris 8:14

So no, dude, I I really appreciate the kind words. I've listened to the episode with David, so thank you guys very much. Um, I was actually, I'll I'll give you a little inside baseball, was showing my wife, we went to get coffee earlier today, and I was like, yo, you gotta listen to the homies. Uh David and Butter, they came by the shop. Butter had a podcast, gave us like some really, really great feedback, some really, you know, kind words. And while I was listening to it with my wife, she was kind of like, you know, chuckling at the part about me being like the wince, you know, Winston the Wolf or the Wolf of the World. Yeah, the wolf of now and never, yeah. And I was like, I don't know if I could have any higher praise than what these guys are are pumping me up as right now. Like if I if the only thing I ever do with the rest of my tenure in comics is be the equivalent of Harvey Keitel's character, the wolf, in Pulp Fiction. If I'm that for now or never, then it is a life, you know, well lived. Uh I will be happy with that.

Badr Milligan 9:10

Absolutely. And man, I well, I I guess on the topic of uh uh Comic-Con, real quick, and I feel like I've I I probably have pushed the limit of how much more I can continue to talk about Comic-Con. Being as like we're two weeks out, and this episode will be out like a week later. So bear with me here. But I was reading a local San Diego uh uh like ABC News article. They uh I guess they stopped by the shop before the big signing. They wrote about like, you know, uh the big uh big signing, you know, San Diego Comic-Con, how now or never like gets ready. And uh they interviewed you, you know, you there was a couple of quotes from you, and one stood out to me, which was you mentioned that you guys had your plans locked in for San Diego Comic-Con this past, you know, the two, three weeks ago, like as of early as October 2025. Like, that is that like normal? Do you guys plan a year out? That seems like insanely early.

Zach Norris 10:04

Is it normal? Probably not. That's not all of Comic-Con. That was one event in particular. Um, that was the the Tiny Onion uh Corpse Tour event. We did an event with them in 2025, we did an event with them actually in 2024. And so they love us, we love them, and they uh reached out to us in October and we're like, hey, we just had our big kind of like 2025 wrap-up meeting that then includes like a look at 2026 and what we want to do. Are you guys down to clown for Comic Con next year? Like, we if you'll have us, we want to lock in Saturday. And we said, if you want Saturday right now in October 2025, then Saturday. Yeah, and so yeah, man, we we have been talking with Tiny Onion since basically October. I think I reached out to Patrick Horvath a few months out to get that ball rolling. Um, we had him signing on on new comic book day of Comic-Con. And then same with Matthew Rosenberg, probably a couple months out. Um, he actually had reached out to us first asking if we had anything going on and if we had some free time. And so we we worked out something with him. And then um, we did a local thing on Sunday with myself and my buddy Just on who did our our Godzilla cover.

Badr Milligan 11:17

Yeah, Just on McGee. Big shout out to Just Stone. Yeah, dude. The fanciest version of Justin I've ever heard, Just on. Yeah, you got a little French flair too.

Zach Norris 11:26

Just Don's on his way up. I'm I'm really excited for him to start taking the steps that he's taking. And I would imagine in in a couple years or so, if not sooner, you'll you'll probably talk to Juston. Yeah, yeah. And you'll you'll find out it's it's not fancy at all. It's more a redneck thing. Um, I believe it was like his his grandmother in Kansas, like when he was born, she's like, Just on. And so it just Oh word, okay. His name is Just on. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Badr Milligan 11:52

Zach, let me ask you, let's I guess while we're on the topic of Now or Never and you know, uh planning these events for for the shop and things. How did you first get involved with Now or Never? And I guess what's your role exactly? Is it safe to call you a manager or or what do you how do you define your role?

Zach Norris 12:07

Yeah, I mean, I think I think it's that's an easy way, uh that's an easy title uh to put on it. We actually don't really do too much of that. Okay. I would say if you had to call me anything, I am kind of like the the point person for customer management, subscription management, orders, FOC stuff, uh receiving orders. Aaron is the owner of the shop. He opened the shop in 2018 and um I shopped there for two years before I became an employee. Uh I think Aaron had basically gotten tired of listening to me uh bitch about my previous job and was like, hey man, like I'm I'm ready for a full timer. Like if you want to get out of a situation that you're not feeling, like come on board. Um it was a a pretty big leap for my myself and my wife, uh, because my wife was pregnant. We were about three months out from my son being born. Wow. And I was like, hey, do you care if I give up this uh somewhat cushy job with an eyewear company and go work in the uh the infamously stable and very profitable marketing? lucrative comic shop, not just comic book industry, like a comic retail shop. Yeah, dude, yeah. And and my wife is is about as down as as anybody can be. And she was like, if if this is gonna make you happy and this is gonna make you more like physically and emotionally and mentally available for me and your son, then yes, I want that for for you and for us. And I was like, let's let's get it. Big shout outs to Miss Norris.

Intro Music 13:36

I like that.

Zach Norris 13:36

Yeah, dude. Huge shout out to her. She is she's she's the anchor. But yeah, oh, so sorry, I got sidetracked. I uh I really like my wife and talk about it a lot. Yeah, I can tell. Um but uh noted. So I shopped at the shop for two years, started working for the shop. I had basically I remember probably my second or third time going to the shop. I'm not sure how familiar you are with this uh like ideology or or lifestyle, but um, I'm straight edge. Uh don't drink, don't smoke, don't do drugs. It's like a hardcore thing, comes from 80s hardcore. So I walked, I went into the shop one day wearing a shirt that said it's okay not to drink. And Aaron saw my shirt and was like, hey man, are you straight edge? And I was like, Yes, I am. And he was like, sick, I'm straight edge. From Boston, Boston Hardcore. I was like, okay, sick. So we connected on the straight edge thing and we connected on comics, and from there it was basically like uh an avalanche or you know, snowball effect of of friendship.

Badr Milligan 14:30

If I was to list off the the number of friends that I have that are straight edge, we'd be here like another 10, 20 minutes. Sick. So like I'm I'm pretty familiar with with that lifestyle and just the the scene for my audio listeners. You're wearing a hat that says read comics, listen to hardcore. Yeah. And I mean, we're gonna spend a lot of time talking about you know the parallels between hip-hop and and comics, but I I think it'd be remiss if we didn't bring up hardcore a little bit and straight edge in the punk scene. Yeah I feel like there's obviously Vin diagram between comics and hip-hop and a lot of similarities and the things they share, the the cross-references and etc. And I don't know enough about it to comment on it, but would you say there is a similar Venn diagram with straight edge, hardcore, like the punk scene? Is it is it something about like the DIY nature of it?

Zach Norris 15:16

1000%, dude. Like there is maybe more so than ever, the the crossover between hardcore and comics, like hardcore guys that like are into comics is for sure more more prevalent than it's ever been. But also, dude, the the parallels and uh intersections or the Venn diagram, as you put it, between hardcore and rap also a thousand percent there, dude. Like um that kind of outlaw spirit, the kind of do-it-yourself spirit, got it, you know, guys going out on tour and driving themselves around for 200 days a year and sleeping in the back of you know, crusty old vans and playing shows for little to no money. Like there's and probably more so like independent kind of underground hip-hop and and hardcore are a little more linked. Um, there's there's not a ton of similarities between Discord records, revelation records style, like indie hardcore, and then like your big Warner Brothers records rap guys, but um it's it's absolutely there, dude. 100%.

Badr Milligan 16:16

So you end up getting this job at at Now or Never. You're you're doing a little bit of everything. Um well, I I I guess let's just jump straight into it since we we brought up hip-hop. Uh, where did the idea for cream come from? And and I also want to add to that, you know, I mentioned the intro, it the name is just so catchy. It's like right there, right? It's like, come on, comics rule everything around me. One of the most iconic, maybe the most iconic acronym in hip-hop history. I guess where did when did the phrase comics rule everything around me like first click for you?

Zach Norris 16:46

So I've been writing for probably 15 years or so. I've I've always been a better reader, writer like in school than anything else. Um, I was terrible at math, not great at science, but like reading and writing got me got me through. Have always been a little bit of a bookworm and have like off and on throughout my life, have loved comics. But probably like senior year of high school, I was writing for the school paper, and then a couple years after that, I was volunteering at a local venue. I was living in Arizona and was working at this venue called Open Aired that on Fridays would be hip-hop shows, Saturday would be hardcore shows, Sunday would be church. And so my brother and I were volunteering, it was a nonprofit, it's very like indie DIY. I'd work the hip-hop shows and then I'd go and work the hardcore shows. And through that stuff, I met this guy who was running a website and a blog called Underneath the Desert, and it was like this underground Arizona hip-hop blog. And he was like, Hey man, I know you're a writer. Will you write some stuff for my website? And I was like, Yeah, sure, man. And I had this idea, and what we called it was anime and hip hop where I would month after month would find an anime reference in a song and then write about that reference on the blog. I would write about the song, I'd write about the artist, I'd write about the anime.

Badr Milligan 18:05

Give me some examples because I I don't I don't think I've ever thought about the anime or even manga references. And I feel like it's probably a little more prevalent now because Yeah, for sure. Yeah, there just seems like a to be a bigger spotlight on on uh black culture and and anime in like that bin diagram. But I never thought about the hip-hop lyric. Obviously, I could go on and on about the different the comic book ones, but give me a few examples of anime.

Zach Norris 18:29

Um so J-Rock's song, Hood Gonna Love It. Uh you ain't gotta like it because gonna love it. Um J-Rock says, Whip like a fireball, call it Goku. Okay, okay. Um, there is, I mean, there's the Wu Tang, like, you know, connect like Voltron uh line.

Badr Milligan 18:45

So that was kind of like like the the first inkling or even like uh uh uh like through line to the cream was like this idea.

Zach Norris 18:53

One day when this becomes a book, because that's that's the like down the road goal, is that this becomes a book. I I will talk more about that. But yeah, man, that's basically like that's where the seed was planted, is like me noticing, okay, there's these rappers that are mentioning anime and manga stuff. And then as you know, we get to like 2015 and Marvel does the hip-hop variant program, and then I start listening to, you know, like I've always listened to rap, but then you start listening for it for a differ with a different kind of ear, right? Like, oh, there's these hip hop variant covers. Oh, and I remember when this guy said this, or I remember when this guy said that. Um, and so actually, probably the the real actual beginning of of Comics Rule Everything Around Me is I was reading Jack Kirby's New Gods for the first time, and reading Jack Kirby's New Gods made me want to revisit Tom King's Mr. Miracle. Nice, and then rereading Tom King's Mr. Miracle, which is probably my favorite Tom King, by the way.

Badr Milligan 19:47

Sure, yeah.

Zach Norris 19:48

That made me want to revisit Isaiah Rashad's house is burning.

Badr Milligan 19:52

Yeah.

Zach Norris 19:53

And Bodder, you probably also we haven't got to talk about this yet, also, man. But uh my dad was in the military, so I I bounced around a lot as a kid, but bounced around between basically the south and the southwest. So my life can be broken into like three chunks geographically the South, Arizona, or California.

Badr Milligan 20:11

Well, when you say South, what what what state are we talking? City.

Zach Norris 20:14

So I was born in North Carolina.

Badr Milligan 20:15

Okay.

Zach Norris 20:16

I lived in Virginia, I lived in Tennessee, I've got family in Alabama, I've got family in Texas. Okay, you got the South covered. I got it, you got the South covered. I'm like Southern, my mom is from Virginia, my dad's from Texas slash Alabama. I am like Southern by blood. So most of my like early rap fandom was either Beastie Boys or Southern rap. Cash Money Millionaires, 3-6, yada yada yada. I got married on March 6th, so that my anniversary would be 3-6.

Badr Milligan 20:45

I know for a fact you probably what? You've definitely probably played um oh my god, why am I drawing a blank on the the number one at 3-6 in Outcast wedding fire? Yeah, yeah. Played at my wedding for the record, by the way. I've also had that on the playlist.

Zach Norris 20:59

It's the wedding song now. Come on, like it's the wedding song of a generation. Uh so no, so like this is all like very long way of saying, um, so when Isaiah Rashad got going in like 2012, 2013, whatever it was, I've lived my life to Sylvia demo, dude.

Badr Milligan 21:16

Bro, it was Sylvia demo was on I cannot explain to you how much I played that album.

Zach Norris 21:24

Soundtrack to my life for like two years, dude. Yeah. And um when he dropped his next one, that one I I liked a another song that I read. Yep. But then when he dropped The House is Burning, I was like, oh, this and his second song I think is called Dark Side. So I'm rereading Tom King's Mr. Miracle, and I'm like, oh shit, like Dark Side, I need to go listen to some of you know Isaiah Rashad again. So I'm listening to Dark Side, and he's mentioning the new gods, and I was like, you know what? How many of these are there? I need to dig into this. I know like the BC boys. Mention Von Bodhi and Cheech Wizard and like because Beastie Boys are kind of like the beginning of me caring about music, dude. I'd I'd loved music before that. I'd listen to music a ton before that. But anyways, dude. So yeah, I I just had to start digging in and seeing like how many people do this, how prevalent is it? Is it just uh a certain section of guys in this one place? Is it everybody? Is it a newer thing? Is it an older thing? And it just sent me down the the proverbial rabbit hole, dude. It is it's such a deeper and wider uh you know pool of stuff than I really realized. I think I'd known for a while, because I've worked at the shop now for over five years, and that started connecting a lot of comic dots for me too, where like I'd kind of had a lot of the musical stuff kind of stored, but I didn't have all the comic connections because I was still pretty like I was a little like narrow focused in terms of my comic appreciation. But then I started seeing like, oh, this guy Bob Camp who did these Conan covers, he also did the this cover for this group, Nucleus. Oh, and then Nucleus has got a song where they talk about breakdance battling Superman.

Badr Milligan 23:11

Which I had I mean, that was one advantage of I have not actually read the volume two top to bottom. I've just flipping through it, and uh Bob Camp was new to me. I had no idea that, or even about this group Nucleus at all.

Zach Norris 23:24

Yeah, dude. So like that's they're still they're early enough in rap, like early 80s, to where it's still a little bit like it's still kind of disco, it's still kind of dancy, still like a little electro. They're they're very much rapping, and they've got a song, you know, one of those old school like seven-minute rap songs with no chorus. And and they talk about breakdance battling Superman, and it's like oh shit. And then Bob Camp's got he did the cover for both of their first two albums, and he did the single for Africa Bambada's uh Renegades of Funk. Yep, which is a very important hip-hop record. And I can't remember which one it is, the the Nucleus albums or Renegades of Funk, but dude, like on the back of them, whichever one it is, like they actually shout out like thanks to Marvel Comics, thanks to Stan Lee, thanks Bob Camp. And it's like, oh man, like this is this is happening in like the earliest days of this. And so that kind of became again like this snowball effect of I was looking at references and songs, and then it became now I'm seeing artwork, and then it became now I'm seeing comic artists who are doing stuff for rap album covers, and then it became oh, I've never realized like Grandmaster Flash and The Furious Five. They're borrowing that naming convention from the Fantastic Four. Um, and then you start looking at old school stuff like Wild Style or Style Wars, and these dudes are doing graffiti and they're putting, you know, Von Bodhi characters in in graffiti pieces, or um Donde, um, R.I.P. is very important graffiti artist from early New York City graffiti days, has this piece called Children of the Grave where there's like a big hand like reaching out on this uh subway car, and it's it's his name, Don Di, but like just before it, there's this big hand reaching out. Oh yeah, and if you know if you know it, it's a Jack Kirby forever hand from like the cover of an Avengers dude. And like I I saw it and was like, oh, that looks like a comic book hand. So Bodr, I sent uh uh this picture to Aaron from Now or Never, and I said, Hey bro, uh who drew this hand? Is this like a Bushema hand, a Kirby hand? And uh Botter, I swear, dude, within like I don't even know if it was 10 minutes, uh Aaron had sent me an Avengers cover with Thor like reaching out and it's like it's clear as day. It's if it's not that hand, it's damn near close as like real, real close, dude. And so I was like, yo, like even these graffiti guys in like the late 70s, early 80s, as graffiti is taking off the way that it took off, they are looking at comics, and then you start like looking at the way that they would fill pieces or that they would put like background effects, and it starts if you're a comic book guy, uh, or if you're a comic book person, excuse me, I feel like you could start to see some of these backgrounds and effects and be like, yo, that's Kirby Crackle. Or yo, that's like that's the way this dude colored this thing, or that's the logo from this thing, besides just seeing the characters, and so yeah, man, it just it just became a huge, huge rabbit hole. And the the comics rule everything around me, the name. Um, I appreciate the props. I definitely like once I read it, because I've got to give you know appropriate credit, I was on Blue Sky thumbing through random accounts and Becky Clonin, dude. I think it's I'm I'm pr I'm like 97% sure it's Becky Clonen. Her profile on Blue Sky just says comics rule everything around me. And I was like, oh shit, that's the name of the scene. Because I didn't have a name at that point. I actually didn't even really have a zine at that point, dude. I I had done the Ash Can for Comic-Con last year, and outside of the Ash Can, I had this little like demo one that I made. I wish I had it handy here, where I had just taken like 10 pieces of paper, folded them, and put like a the BC Boys article, and then I drew a Cheech Wizard, and then I put like a you know, uh the Jay-Z thing, and then I put a picture of uh Kingdom come. And it was really just like this little DIY, like I just wanted to show a homie. And he saw it and he was like, nah, dude, it's this is way deeper than this. You gotta go harder than this. And I was like, You think so? And he was like, Yeah, bro, like go go hard. And so that's how it became 50 something pages of references and you know, all the stuff it became.

Badr Milligan 27:38

I'm so glad you connected the dots like that. I I guess in my head, this zine project was a lot longer in the process making. I didn't know that a lot of this happened, you know, hell just recently.

Zach Norris 27:51

Um I've I've been brainstorming and collecting info, dude, for probably two-ish years, two and a half years, actually working on it, actually making it, writing it, editing it, designing, laying out for now like a year, Comic-Con to Comic-Con.

Badr Milligan 28:09

Well, you know, I I I guess what I like hearing about this origins, one kudos to you for giving prosper Beggy Clunen, who is a genius. Like it kind of is like, okay, yeah, she's like a genius at this thing. But hearing you mention the Marvel hip-hop variant covers, yeah, and how that also plays into like the genesis of of the story of putting together uh cream. I remember working at the comic shop and feeling validated in a way, as someone that was like a big hip-hop head and loved comics. Like it was a validation to me to have these two things that I knew shared uh equal respect and love for a lot of the reasons you shared, right? Like we can go down the history of hip-hop and find so many, you know, uh comic book references. I think a big part of it is because Marvel's based out of New York has always been, you know, you know what I'm saying? Like that New York love and hip-hop, you know, New York, all of that. But there was something about being able to have conversations about these albums and these um these covers and who they homaged at the comic shop. For me, it was like a big validation, like, oh wow, okay, I know I'm in the right place. These two art forms that I love have mutual respect. So it's cool to hear how that had an impact on you as well. Yeah, man. But uh just hearing you mention the Marvel hip-hop variants, like obviously it was wildly successful. I mean, those covers were selling out all the time. I still uh come across ones I I've never seen before, like, you know, brand new ones.

Zach Norris 29:40

Um, there's way more than I thought they did, dude.

Badr Milligan 29:42

Yeah, because they continued on. You know what I'm saying? There was like it felt like they were putting out in waves. And I remember by the second wave, I was like, okay, I think I've got all the ones I want. Looking back, I should have just scooped up all of them, but I think they continued on for like three, four. I mean, obviously it wasn't like the numbers started dwindling and it just got way more obscure, too. Like some of the covers. Yes. When you think about this campaign, the Marvel hip-hop variants, what covers uh uh stand out to you? Were there any that you were like exceptionally kind of excited that they homaged?

Zach Norris 30:12

I I think in my hunt now, dude, I've got somewhere between like 40 and 50 of the hip-hop variants, and the ones that immediately jumped to mind. I I love that Power Man and Iron Fist one uh because I also love that series, like David F. Walker and and Sanford Green killed that. But the the Del Mundo ones, like I know that's your dude, you know he's my dude. Shout out Mike Del Mundo, like one one of the best doing it right now. Underrated interior artist, man. For sure. I love that he gets the love and respect for his covers because he should, because his covers are next level. Underrated interior artist. But no, man, his his Spider-Man Tribe Called Quest, it's perfect. It is absolutely perfect. Like it, it is just it's so New York. Yep, it's so Spider-Man, it's a perfect recreation of the cover, and then all you do is you flip the girl in her stance into Spider-Man hanging from the web, and it's yeah, it's meant to be, dude.

Badr Milligan 31:06

It's meant to be. You know, and Spider-Man is a character with not only a rogues gallery, but a supporting gallery that that lets you play off of that tribe called Quest cover, where it was like, you know, they had a who's who of hip-hop, you know, uh alumni in their cover, and now you've got like Spider-Man's kind of rogue gallery and familiar faces. You know what I'm saying? Like it's one of those perfectly executed, you know, it was just to your credit, it would it was perfect.

Zach Norris 31:31

100%. And some of my other favorite ones are like I love the Jay-Z Black Panther one. Brian Stelfries, I love that cover. Stelfries is one of the gods, dude. Yeah, yeah.

Intro Music 31:41

Um, truly.

Zach Norris 31:42

I love and I I feel bad for not remembering the artist who did this one, but it's uh an Amadeus Cho Hulk cover that is an homage to a Sean Price album. Oh, and it goes hard as hell, dude.

Badr Milligan 31:56

I was just looking at that one. Yeah, I don't remember the the the cover artist either, but um I want to give a shout out really quick. There is a Mighty Thor variant that homages Mad Villainy, and it's just that stark black and white, the helmet. I mean, you know what I'm saying? It's like some of those covers are as I don't know, iconic as the the album covers themselves.

Zach Norris 32:18

Like I mean, dude, Bill Bill Sinkevich doing Star Lord as Kid Cuddy, Bill Sinkevich doing uh Nick Fury as Bobby Digital. I love those because it's it's Sinkovich getting to exactly homage himself.

Badr Milligan 32:31

Yeah, it's real meta.

Zach Norris 32:32

And Dennis Cowan doing Contest of Champions, that's liquid swords. He's getting to homage himself.

Badr Milligan 32:38

Um, those are standouts. I got to witness the Marvel Hip Hop variant campaign influence people to check out some of those albums and covers. Like I remember being invited on another friend's podcast to go through every single album cover and my thoughts on the album. And you know, it was just cool to have the conversation, to like have especially for me who was working at a comic shop at the time, to have like these two conversations that I could talk about all day and get people onto like hip hop and certain artists, and you know, help them like kind of like traverse certain rabbit holes. I think it is still to this day one of my favorite moments in comics, period.

Zach Norris 33:15

It was it felt like I think the way I described this one time to a friend was that, you know, for so long, because of these references we hear in songs, like from the Wu-Tang guys, right? Like Method Man is Johnny Blaze, and um, you know, uh Tony Stark's excuse me, freaking Ghostface is is Tony Stark Iron Man. Yeah, you hear all these references and you hear all these connections and you see the artwork, and you're like, yo, hip-hop loves comics. Of course they do. But for a while, it just looked like one-sided. Yeah, it's rap, rap loves comics. And then this Marvel variant campaign shows everybody that comics also love rap. Yeah like this this is not just a one-way street, like most things in life. And and I think that was a real kind of like watershed moment for a lot of nerds like us to be like these these two things we've we've maybe had always had felt that there's this Venn diagram, but had never seen it, be had never seen the dots.

Badr Milligan 34:18

Yeah, it was validating in multiple ways. And I'd be remiss right now, you know, speaking about like kind of these these big moments that combine the two fandoms. You know, over your left or your right shoulder, left, right, whatever the camera right, yeah, you've got the the legend has it, the Nas and DJ Premier album in the the Mike Del Mundo variant as well as the Days Las Soul variant. Um, which, you know, it's been cool to watch Marvel and Mass Appeal team up for that giant campaign as well to embrace comics to get artists like you know Mike Del Mundo to to Sanford Green, you know, to also work on it. You know, it's cool to see like if it felt like it it's building upon what Marvel already set up and it, you know, and and all of that. So I want to get back to talking about Cream uh in the zine. Why specifically did you feel like a zine was the the was the right format? Like, did you have any other formats in mind, like uh I don't know, like a blog post, a newsletter? Like why why the zine route?

Zach Norris 35:12

When I started writing this, dude, you know what everybody said? This should be a podcast. Oh, really? I already did that. I don't want to do a podcast again. I'm a I'm a writer, I'm a I'm a writer by nature, dude. I um I didn't mention this earlier. Uh are you familiar with the clothing company, The Hundreds?

Badr Milligan 35:30

I was actually going to ask you about that because I came across something uh online while I was researching. I was like, does Zach write for the hundreds? Bobby hundreds? The brand? Yeah, man. I used to write for the hundreds.

Zach Norris 35:41

What do you mean you used to write? Because I mean it's a clothing company. What'd they have? Like a blog? So yeah, dude. So that was how the hundreds blew up, bro. Um okay. Put me on the game. Bobby kind of pioneered this, and and somebody smarter than me, somebody who is still more tapped into streetwear, will will have like a more eloquent way of saying this. But the way that streetwear is now so like wrapped up into like social media and showing you like behind the scenes stuff and why we did this design and why we did that, and why we're going to this uh you know convention or whatever this event. I like Bobby's the pioneer of all that, dude. Interesting.

Badr Milligan 36:18

Okay.

Zach Norris 36:19

Bobby when they started the hundreds, he started a blog and almost every day, dude, was posting something like here's some new shirts we got printed, here's a new thing I went and did, oh, I met this guy who took me to this studio and I checked out his art, or hey, here's my friend, like, oh, here's the odd future kids hanging out in front of the store on Fairfax, whatever the case you know was, you could always go to the blog and find something to connect with, a story to connect with that brought you into their world. And so it wasn't just like, oh, these dudes are also making fire tees and dope hoodies, and Adam Bomb is super catchy and like all that. You could also go and get a glimpse of who these guys were as people. And when I was living in Arizona, I lived in this super small town called Yuma, Arizona, dude. Shout out Yuma. I I've got a little bit of a love-hate relationship with Yuma Arizona, but like it's this super small town, it's military and agriculture, it's all it's got going on. But I think because I'd moved around, because I was in like I'd skateboarded and had been into writing and hip-hop and all these different things, like I I always had my eyes like out. I was looking looking for more stuff to like build up who I am. And I had a buddy that put me onto like sneaker and streetwear culture, because he was from San Diego, uh, my homie Josh. Shout out, Josh. And uh we basically like we were those dudes that lived on Nike Talk forums, hype-based forums, the hundreds. Back when the internet was a proper place. Back when we were a proper country, yeah, yeah, yeah. That had proper like before social media like took every subculture and made it like not subculture. Yeah, you had to go and find these places, find these communities, and you had to kind of like be a student. You had to work your way in, and you had to like show people you were like down, if you will. You couldn't just like pop on social media, post the shoes that you had just got from the Nike sneakers drop, and be like, oh, I'm a sneakerhead because I just copied the Travis Scotts, you know, like not enough.

Badr Milligan 38:33

There there was there was a a certain level of acceptable gatekeeping. Gatekeeping I call it healthy gatekeeping. Healthy gatekeeping, yeah. That's a good phrase. Can I real quick uh speaking hearing like you talk about hundreds and and the Nike forums, can I tell you the first time I ever bought my first 100s piece, which I think was in uh um the Adam the Bomb tea, uh was off of Moose Unlimited. Yeah, I to this day without I think there is a I think Moose Unlimited still exists, but it's not you know, it's just not the same thing. Sure, sure, sure. Man, I used to cop so the hundreds, um crooks and castles, uh Supras. Um I actually might try to see if I can find any of like these old receipts. Like I used to have to send in money orders to get clothes, you know what I'm saying? Like rap tees. I used to have this like dope ass big LT. I forgot who is the maker of it, but good times, yeah. Okay, so anyways, yeah. So so you end up writing for for the hundreds, um, and how does that tie into cream and the decision to go Z?

Zach Norris 39:30

That was that was just a big, a big thing for me personally, was like was moving to San Diego, meeting Ben and Bobby, and getting to write for the blog and be like, oh man, like writing is not just the thing that I could do as a hobby, like I can actually make money and make connections and do cool shit by writing. And I interviewed Mike Shinoto of Lincoln Park. Nice, and then I ended up working for Mike Shinoto of Lincoln Park. I interviewed Kevin Eastman, like the writing for the hundreds took me places. That's cool. And showed me, like, yo, your writing can take you places. So when the like the idea for comics rule everything around me starts like circling and becoming this kind of thing that's looming over me, I was like, man, this this feels like a book. This feels like there's enough stuff here for me to dig into, there's enough people for me to talk to, there's enough material to cover, this could be a book. And there is now more hip-hop books than there's ever been Doom book, Fab Five Freddy book, hip hop and comics book. Like, there's I've got quest loves. What is the you said a hip-hop and comics book? What is that one? This is hip hop and comics. Whoa, need it. Uh, this is edited by Dr. Sheena Howard. If you guys don't uh know Dr. Sheena Howard, follow her. I believe she's written uh some stuff for Marvel. She wrote a book about um Black Panther and Wakanda and like what that means for you know Afrofuturism and uh black culture and black literature.

Badr Milligan 40:55

I'm gonna buy that book after we're done. I've got the Fat Five Freddy book in my in my cart.

Zach Norris 40:59

Like at this also has a foreword in it by a guy named uh Patrick Reed, who is a DJ.

Badr Milligan 41:05

Patrick Reed has some of the dopest mixes out there, like all of his sample mixes, some of my favorites.

Zach Norris 41:11

Patrick Reed is the dude that does the hip hop and comics panel at Comic-Con every year. He's been doing it since 2012. How did I know this? So I am. I feel like I wasted my Comic Con.

Badr Milligan 41:21

I wasted my Comic-Con. I didn't go to the fucking hip-hop and comics panel. Cool. Please keep me keep me in the loop for next year. Zach, I feel like you when you go to Comic Con, you do the shit that I want to go find. As a first timer, I think I missed out on some stuff. When I can get there, I definitely. But hearing but you know what? I'll go ahead and add to it and say that I I think it was a smart decision to go the zine and book route. Because first of all, volume one of Cream is all about hip-hop lyrics referencing comics. So you're already talking about the written word, right? Like these words and all that. So I think it makes sense just thematically to have a physical book. I bought volume two from you in person. Thank you. I, you know, bought volume one when you when you posted it last year. I even bought like a digital copy because I didn't want to mess up my physical copy. Let me go and admit to you. I did not read all the way through. When I bought that book, like many things, I put it in my stack of things to read. And I did not read volume one until I was leaving the flight from San Diego back home. I was like, well, I got volume two, I should probably read volume one. And I spent the entire flight from San Diego to Dallas reading volume one. And I think that was when I was like, Yeah, I need to hit this dude up. I need to have him on the show. Because the labor of love that you put into it, man, it's thank you, man. And I think it's not, you know, you're not just saying, like, hey, here is a reference. You know, it's not like a listical, it's not a very, you know, like what I'm saying. You could have gone a very straightforward route. That could have easily been like a social media post or something. But I think the research that you put into it, the the level, uh uh, the dedication, obviously, like your passion for the medium and just writing, it also looks really good too. Um, I do you do most of the graphic design in it?

Zach Norris 42:57

That's it's all me, dude. There's a couple in the first issue, there's a a few pieces that I had friends contribute art to um just because I wanted to like put on some local friends and I wanted to have a few more kind of visual things to break up some of all that writing, all that text. But yeah, dude, the writing, design, layout, that's all me, for better or for worse. The leap from the second one from the first one, I think you'll see when you dig into the second one, it's way heavier visually, and that's by design because it's about art. Sure. It's also just because now I know what I'm doing and I know like kind of what I'm what I'm going for.

Intro Music 43:31

Okay.

Zach Norris 43:32

But I still just last night going back through it and prepping for stuff today, found like two more spelling errors and like design errors, and was like, oh god damn. Second print's gonna have some uh some cleanup that needs to be done.

Badr Milligan 43:45

But uh before we get to talking about uh volume two, I do want to give you some props about volume one because I ended up learning two things. Well, um there's two observations, one that uh two observations I wanted to note. One, you list two of my favorite comic book references. In hip-hop, one of them being most deaf on respiration, uh when he says, 'You pay or die, no options, no Batman or Robin.' Can't tell between the cops and the robbers, they both partners. They all heartless, of no conscience. Like one of my favorite comic book, uh, because you know, and and I think what what your your zine did was kind of show the full gamut of these references, where sometimes it's as simple as like, you know, I'm sharp like Wolverine's claws, right? Like, I don't think anyone said that. Uh trademark water milligan. But or in that case, like most deaf, where he like he's weaving it into like, you know, these multi-syllable rhymes and like, you know, inner rhymes and all of that. So I do like that you you go from like very straightforward comic book rhymes with like very easy Easter eggs to like, here's how it's a little deeper in the double entendres, which leads me to my second uh uh point I wanted to make. There's a few instances where you're writing like a couple of paragraphs about the reference, the song, the album that it's on. In particular, uh uh you have uh a page about uh Jay-Z Kingdom Come. And one of my favorite comic book references from one of my favorite rappers, when he says, I've been up in the office, you might know him as Clark, but just when you thought the whole world fell apart, I take off the blazer, loosen up the tie, step inside the booth, Superman is alive. Yeah, yeah. Love that lyric. Little did I know that the album, you know, and obviously it's on the album Kingdom Come. I did not know that the comic book, even though it's like right there. Like I did, I had never thought about the comic book tie to Mark Wade and Alex Ross's seminal body of work. It's also you know what I'm saying? I I guess I always assumed it was more of the biblical reference, Die Kingdom Come. Sure, sure, sure. You did a great job breaking down how you know young guru being a a comic book head and you know him tie, you know, uh uh you know, mentioning it to Jay-Z and all of that. Like, you know, there's a lot I think that your seasoned hip hop head, comic book lover, could learn from this to even like just like even if you have no knowledge or basis of any of those, I think someone could pick up volume one for sure and learn, and I think really appreciate certain nuances to it.

Zach Norris 46:10

I appreciate that, man. Uh really, really appreciate the kind words and the feedback. And that was that was definitely the goal. Cause when I when I started out, and and a lot of that, a lot of those digger, digger, a lot of those deeper digs. Um, I gotta give my man uh Jake Zelaki credit. Um, Jake helps me edit the zine. Okay. He is a writer, he's an editor, he's a professor at USD here in town, real sharp cat, one of the smartest dudes I've ever met. And he started shopping at the shop a couple years ago, and we connected through comics and then we connected through both being writers, and he was the guy that I was showing, like, hey, I've got this idea, and this is kind of what I'm doing, like kind of just a fun little thing. And he was like, nah, man, it's deeper than that. He's like, go, go harder. Like, okay, this guy says this, why does he say that? And and he's got this kind of writing thing that he lives by where he tells himself, so what? If you you find something that you think is interesting, or you find something that like you want to talk about, so what? So, what makes it important? What makes it worth digging into? What makes it worth sharing? And so, to your point, like at first it kind of was just a find these things and call them out. Yo, in this song, this dude says this, and that's all it was gonna be. I talked to Jake, and Jake was like, that's cool if you're trying to show how big it is and how often it happens, trying to show like the breadth of this thing, which is why I ended up doing like the pages with the like the smaller examples. Yeah, but he was like, But there's more to this than guys just being like, Hey, Wolverine, hey, Spider-Man. And so that's how I got into the longer ones where like Kingdom Come and Jay-Z. Like that was something that I had written that in there as a as just a reference. Like, hey, Jay-Z mentions in one song he mentioned Superman a couple times, Batman and Spider-Man, but then started digging into it, and I was like, All right, man, the song is called Kingdom Come, the album's called Kingdom Come. There's got to be something to this, right? And then sure as shit, there was something to it. Like, looked it up, and people were like, Yeah, guru showed him this album. I was like, or this comic? I was like, Oh shit, of course. Yeah, but like really dug into the ones that I felt like I could speak to a little bit more, like the Isaiah Rashad, like the Beastie Boys in Von Bodie, like the um the Jay-Z Kingdom Come, Feral Manch and X-Men. I love that song. Um, and that one was kind of just a little bit of a uh I I knew that I could probably reach out to to Mike from Lincoln Park and ask him a few things about it. And so um I love Feromanch, he's one of my favorite MCs, so wanted to put that in there. But yeah, man, I wanted to have like four or five examples of long form stuff that really show people like hey, these dudes aren't just saying this to say this. Yeah. It's not just filling in space in a song, it's not just like no disrespect to guru because he's one of the goats, but that line, like lemonade was a popular drink and it still is. It's it's not just for fill in space, you know what I mean? Like some of these comic book references are they mean something to the MC, to the song, to the story. And so I was I was just really trying to dig into that and show people like, hey, there's there's something more to this than just dudes putting words together.

Badr Milligan 49:13

Yeah, it's methodical in some points, you know, like there's a lot more layers to it. And I think that's what I enjoyed about volume one, which uh I want to go ahead and take a pause here, real quick. Volume one, you know, I'd say pretty fucking successful for like a DIY zine that you were selling out of the shop. And real quick, when you ended up actually getting these printed, I'm assuming like Aaron, you know, now or never comics was very much like, yeah, let's sell them here. Like, was there any, I guess, hesitation about like mixing, you know, personal with work and all of that?

Zach Norris 49:44

Nah, man. Like, I mean, there was a little bit on my end, sure, as far as like, is Aaron gonna be cool with this? Should I do this? Am I kind of like taking advantage of the shop? But Aaron, I could I could sing this dude's praises all day. We could do a whole separate podcast about how good of a person Aaron Trice is. Uh, shout out Aaron, shout out now or never comics, uh, now or never forever comics or death.

Badr Milligan 50:07

Yeah, and I'm assuming the reception from the the you know customers and and locals was, I mean, obviously pretty damn good.

Zach Norris 50:15

Yeah, man. That's that's the thing. Like, you know, to and to be fair and to not like make this seem like it's bigger than it is, first print run was a hundred copies, we sold out. Second print run was a hundred copies, sold out. Um, now there's a third printing, now there's the new issue, probably sold roughly a hundred or so of the of the new issue. And I I like to think that I'm humble and I'm my own worst critic, I'm my own worst enemy. And so I think of this stuff and I'm like, oh man, I printed 300 of issue two and it hasn't sold out yet. I fucking suck, I've I'm done, nobody cares. And Aaron's had to remind me a couple times like, dude, you've sold 200 copies of number one and you've sold roughly 100 of this new one. Think about the number of books that we will order from Marvel or DC where we won't sell 100 copies.

Intro Music 51:05

Wow, that's a hella perspective.

Zach Norris 51:07

And I was like, yo, like kind of like blew my fucking mind a little bit. He's like, some some of our most popular books in the shop, we won't sell a hundred copies of until we get to like the third or fourth issue. And you're selling a $15, DIY. He's like, You should be proud of yourself. People want to support you, people want to support this idea. And that is it's a testament to the shop, it's a testament to the subject matter. Uh like comics and rap mean something to people like you and me. Um, and he was like, and it's a testament to to you and what you mean to people here in the shop. And I and that's where uh community over commerce all day in now or never comics do people overprofit. Like I love that.

Badr Milligan 51:47

And I guess I bring up the reception and you know uh it its popularity and the successfulness because I want to go ahead and just let people know that it sounds like they can still buy a copy of volume one third printing, but if they prefer digital, there's always the digital route. I'll have a link to where you can buy volume one in the show notes. Volume two hasn't made it to digital yet, uh, it sounds like very soon, but you've still got a couple of copies that are available. What's the website that people can go to to buy a copy?

Zach Norris 52:13

Um, so the digital one is uh Gumroad. Um, I've got a link in my bio on Instagram. Thank you for sharing the link. I appreciate it. Gumroad is just a service that allows people to create digital things and sell them online. I'm I'm in the process of making my own website and getting things set up so I can sell it myself and not have to give Gumroad uh as much money. Um but for now, like it's totally cool. I just want it to be out there, I want it to be available to people. Um, second issue is available at Now or Never Comics, or bang my line in the DMs and I'll get one shipping. There we go.

Badr Milligan 52:47

Okay, that's what I wanted to know.

Zach Norris 52:48

Until the website is up and ready. Um, it's just, you know, shoot me a DM and we'll we'll handle, you know, it's it's the cost of the zine, it's the cost of shipping. We're good to go.

Badr Milligan 52:57

Small fee, trust me. Well worth it. I do want to ask about the transition from volume one where it's a focus on on hip-hop references, I'm sorry, comic book references and lyrics, etc., to volume two, like you mentioned, goes a more visual route where you uh, I mean, volume two is literally titled Off the Spinner Racks into the record bins, which is more of a focus on actually, you know, you tell me what is volume two about and how is it distinctively different than volume one?

Zach Norris 53:24

Yeah, man. So so volume two is specifically about comic book artists who have done album covers for rap albums. And I I had to kind of narrow that focus because there are a grip of albums that look like comic book covers or have like kind of comic-inspired artwork, um, like Loot Packs album, the name is escaping me right now, or like Organized Confusions, uh Stress the Extinction event. That is that's by a super talented dude named Matty Dew, or Matt Dew, I believe, uh was his art name, but like he was a great artist, he wasn't a comic book artist. Sure. And so I was trying to focus on dudes who are actually like a part of the comic book industry who had done these album covers. So it was guys like Bob Camp, Bill Sinkevich, Sanford Green, Mike Del Mundo, Mark Texera, um, and then had to stretch things a little tiny bit where guys like Lamore Supreme, who's done all the czarface stuff, he's not an active part of the comic book industry, but he did uh artwork for Zen the Intergalactic Ninja in the 90s, so like he was a comic book artist. Sure, yeah, yeah. Those are good parameters to have. You got you, man, or the thing is just is just huge, you know.

Badr Milligan 54:40

You could have easily extended the the comic book references and and rap lyrics, you know, theme to you know, four volumes if you want. I guess why the decision to go a completely different route? Was it just to keep it fresh for yourself?

Zach Norris 54:52

To keep it fresh for me, to keep it fresh for readers, dude. And I, you know what, to to circle back a little bit, you had asked about why zines and I and I went off on some crazy tangent. And that's uh Aaron and I have a motto in the shop. We say long story longer. Uh because we are uh very talkative dudes. Sure. The reason I did zines is because when I when I started working on this, I was like, yo, this is a book. But if I tell myself I'm writing a book, I'll never do it.

Intro Music 55:18

Sure.

Zach Norris 55:18

I'll never do it, bro. It's too the idea is too big, the work is too big, it'll just loom over me and I'll never do a single fucking thing. Uh sorry if language is not cool on the let it fucking rip, brother. Okay, cool, cool, cool. So I was like, I'm gonna do these as zines so that they are digestible for me in the workload as a as a guy who works full time and as a husband and as a father, and then it will help me find this, find the fan base, find the people that this means something to, and bring you along for the ride, doing it one step at a time. And I wanted to break it out into subjects because again, that'll make it a little more interesting for me doing the work. It'll make it a little more interesting for readers who either do know about this stuff or don't know about this stuff. And so I wanted to go with the art route on this one because in volume one, we're talking about the stuff we hear.

Intro Music 56:10

Sure.

Zach Norris 56:11

And because we're we're listening to this music and we're hearing these uh references, that to me felt like the stuff that is actually more in your face than the album art. Because a lot of times we we don't see the album art. We're listening to this stuff on Spotify, or we're listening to this stuff on you know Apple Music, where we're just seeing like a little single cover and it doesn't mean that much, right? Like we're just listening to the music, music is the thing we're there for. That's why I wanted to start there. We hear it more often than we see it. But then to go from the things we hear, the references we hear, the connections we hear in the music, and then turn that into okay, I'm seeing this album art. And it just felt like the natural, the natural transition. And especially where because the first volume we're talking about lyrics, we're talking more about the rap side of things. Like the the Venn diagram is more focused on the rap stuff. So because we're talking about lyrics, the focus is on rappers in volume two. Because we're talking about art, even though it's album art, the focus is on comic artists who are making this stuff. So it's it's balancing out that that Venn diagram. And um, and I also too, like there was just a part of me that wanted to have an excuse to to talk about Mike Del Mundo and Bill Sinkevich and uh and Sanford Green. And um a lot of it too was based on like who I thought I could talk to and who I thought I could interview. You know, the first first volume ends with an interview with Slug from Atmosphere.

Badr Milligan 57:41

Very good interview, by the way. I've never heard him talk to that extent about one. I didn't know he was like a comic book head to begin with, um, nor have I ever heard him, you know. So it was a it was a nice surprise to hear him to read, you know, this interview where he's talking about comics and how it plays into his music and the the the lessons that he learned, you know, uh from comic books, his time with MF Doom and seeing like his love of comics, very good interview.

Zach Norris 58:07

Yeah, thank you, man. And I, you know, what's like kind of cool and kind of a bummer about that stuff is like there are there are certain people in the industry who have worked with Doom and like know Doom on a like professional and personal level that will talk about him, but only so much because they want to preserve mystique, you know, you want to preserve the the icon, and and so there's some stuff in there that like Slug would kind of dance around a little bit, yeah. Um, and then there was stuff that I kept out because I was like, okay, Slug has been gracious enough to share this with me. I've got to respect the legacy, I've got to respect the mystique, so like I've got to hold on to that, you know what I mean?

Badr Milligan 58:48

But volume two, I mean, you you've mentioned some of these names, man. Some heavy hitters. I mean, you it like you said, you've got a couple of like blurbs and short quotes from like uh Mike Del Mundo. I mean, you're covering Bob Camp. Um, Sanford Green is in, you know, like fucking Dennis Cowan. I mean, come on, man. That just a liquid swords cover is so iconic, and it took me so long to realize that it was Dennis Cohen uh that did actually. Let me show you something that I recently bought that I think you'd appreciate. I don't know if you know this, but a while uh um Marvel uh put out, you know, obviously they had the hip-hop variants, and they were so successful that they put out a couple of vinyl records with the the comic covers, but only three of them. One of them, though, being his contest of champion uh vinyl with the Dennis Cohen art. Uh, this is like a pride possession for me. I was so happy to finally get it, but it's so good, dude.

Zach Norris 59:41

Yeah, he I met him at Comic-Con, was was finally finally got to to actually. I gave him a copy of the zine, you know, told him thanks for his work, a another kind of interesting connection here. Um to to circle back to my homie Jake. Jake has uh done two books now with the University of Mississippi Press, um, where they do a series of books called Conversations with, and then it's a a comic book creator. And Jake has done two of those in that series. One was with Todd McFarlane and one was with Dennis Cowan. And so he in the Todd McFarlane one, uh it's him curating and editing previous interviews. In the Cowan one, it's him curating and editing previous interviews, and then he does his own interview. So when I started working on the zine, I was like, hey man, I'm gonna use stuff about Dennis Cowan. Can I borrow anything from your book? And so that's why there's this section there with like the little one page, almost like an advertisement for this Dennis Cowan book. Because the quotes I got from Dennis Cowan are actually from Jake's book. Yeah, and so when I went to Comic-Con, I told Dennis, like, hey man, I borrowed some of these uh quotes from this book. Like, Jake's a great guy, you know, needed to give you one of these. Thanks for your work, had him sign um the Contest of Champions, Liquid Swords Homage, and then a copy of uh static number one. Nice. Um if you don't start none, there won't be none.

Badr Milligan 1:01:05

Let me let me ask you this uh during the research of volume two, was there any interesting tidbits, things that you learned along the way that maybe you hadn't known prior to like starting? I mean, just for me, I mean flipping through it, I had no idea about Bob Camp, his involvement with hip hop. You know, even like learning about some of the the covers that Bill Sinkevich has worked on, you know, like the EPMD business as usual cover, you know, I think that's an easy one to look at and be like, oh, that's just a really nice graphic cover, and and you know, it looks almost painted. Yeah, it almost looks painted. Then you're like, oh shit, wait a minute. Then once you know it's Bill Sinkevich, you're like, oh, there's all these signs, and like the you know, his style is is very apparent. Was there any, did you have any like light bulb aha moments while you were doing volume?

Zach Norris 1:01:48

It's it's almost all light bulb moments, dude. It's it's almost all like I told Bill this. Like, I love that kid cuddy album. That first cuddy album is was it hit me right on time.

Badr Milligan 1:01:59

Like speaking about light bulb moments, only two years ago that I learned that he did the cover. Once again, another cover that is burned in my head. That first Kid Cuddy album, I think for all of us like millennials, is like you know, it's it's close to home. Never would have thought it had a calmic book connection.

Zach Norris 1:02:16

It's it's one of those things that speaks to Bill's versatility as an artist and like the versatility of his art style. But like, same dude, like I've been listening to that album since it came out. The the cover is seared into my brain, and I'd probably read the album like liner notes to that thing 20 times, and probably saw the name Bill Sinkevich and was like, cool, whatever. But then, like, and had probably read comics with artwork by Bill Sinkevich, sure, but then working in the shop, like now or never has just become so pivotal, dude. Like as my my life and the things I'm doing now, but especially with these connections, I'm seeing more of this stuff because I'm surrounded by more of it. Like realizing that that's a Bill Sinkevich cover on Man on the Moon, then like kind of open these floodgates of like what else have I been looking at and not realizing that it's a comic book artist. And and so Mark Texera was a another good example where that's a great one.

Badr Milligan 1:03:18

Yeah.

Zach Norris 1:03:19

I'm not familiar with I'm not familiar with that era of Ghost Rider and Wolverine and Sabretooth. I wasn't like a big 90s comics kid, so like Mark Texera is only like on like the peripheral of my comic radar, and then that public enemy album, it's not one of the public enemy albums.

Badr Milligan 1:03:38

It's a little later for sure. Yeah, it's a little later.

Zach Norris 1:03:41

It's it's kind of after they they hit their peak, but I'd I'd probably seen that album cover how many other times scrolling through Spotify or talking to friends about stuff, whatever the case may be, digging through bins somewhere. I was just like, oh, this is like a very socially themed kind of making a you know, making a message or or having a message kind of cover that's perfect for public enemy. That's right up there, you know, right up their alley, right in their wheelhouse. And then don't remember what I was looking at when I saw like somebody say somewhere like, Oh yeah, there's that public enemy cover by Mark Texera. And I was like, which public enemy cover is by and then I grabbed a copy of the CD here in town and was lucky enough to find it at a record store. I went to like six different record stores, found a CD copy because he was doing a signing like 30 minutes north of me. And so I went and actually talked to him about it. Like, took took the chance and went and sat down, and he was such a cool guy, total total character, like total comic book character himself. Um, but was a great chat, and he he totally put me on game, was like, yeah, did that for Def Jam. They hit me up and they were like, Hey, you do Ghost Rider, so you must be the skeleton guy, like you're Marvel Skeleton guy, right? He was like, Well, everybody can probably draw a skeleton, but if you need to draw a skeleton, then yes, I'd like to. You draw a skeleton real good, Mark. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. And then he did a flesh and bone uh cover, a bone thugs like solo album, and then somebody I'd never heard of, uh, Passion, he did her album cover. She's a rapper from the bay.

Badr Milligan 1:05:10

You know, can I say real quick, you mentioned that he did the album cover of Flesh and Bone. I think it's crazy that you know, the one album that you would think would have a skeleton on it, a flesh and bone, that's not thugs, no. But the public enemy album, what is this called? Uh Muse Sicken Hour. That's a hell of a title. Muse is a little sick and hour mess age.

Intro Music 1:05:33

Yeah, it's supposed to be music and our message. There you go. There you go. Okay.

Zach Norris 1:05:37

So a little bit of a roundabout way of getting there.

Badr Milligan 1:05:40

Sure. Absolutely. A little clunky, but I got you.

Zach Norris 1:05:42

But yeah, Bone Thugs in Harmony, solo album, Flesh and Bone, not a single bone painted on the top.

Badr Milligan 1:05:50

Zach, what what would you say is your I guess after doing this uh project and after the release of volume two, what would you say is some of your favorite, I guess, like him? pop covers drawn by comic artists. Do you have a certain affinity for one, or do you have like a new affinity for a certain one after having done volume two?

Zach Norris 1:06:09

There, yeah, definitely a new affinity for that EPMD cover. Talking to Bill uh about that one and him like telling the story of like he was at the Def Jam office like late 80s, which is already sick enough.

Intro Music 1:06:23

Come on, yeah. He was there at like prime time.

Zach Norris 1:06:25

He's hanging out with Parrish of EPMD and Parrish is like, I we want you to do this album cover. And then talking about what they talked about and what they wanted and then how he was going to visually portray that. But then more so once we really started talking about it, he was telling me um and it's part of the interview at the back I I feel really uh really really grateful uh for for Sue, Carlin and um and Bill for giving me some of their time and letting me do this interview where he digs into like he was this kind of like podunk farm boy from New Jersey that moved to New York with these big art dreams. He loved drawing he loved painting he goes to school and he just gets wrapped up in 80s New York subculture. He's seeing graffiti he's seeing comic book art he's seeing all this stuff it's all blossoming around him right and he tells a really like it's a real brief story but it's a killer story about like he gets off the subway one night and Keith Herring is about to start like doing a piece in the subway and Bill's like I'll be your lookout like do your thing and I was like only in 80s New York bro but like he he dove into like the messaging of that album cover and what EPMD wanted like they're in a swamp they're surrounded by these like FBI you know whatever alphabet boys kind of gang is surrounding them. There's these dogs and there's helicopters and there's guns and the guys in EPMD are just kind of standing there kind of b-boy pose like it's just real real hip hop shit. And Bill was like I'm this white farm boy from Jersey sitting in the deaf jam office talking about this art for these guys, painting this cover for these guys and I felt a kinship with them because I felt that like that urge and that desire to push back against authority. Like seeing the powers that be and how they try to hold certain people back. And so he's like I wanted this album cover to to express that to express this urgency and this kind of like simmering rage and this real like fuck you.

Badr Milligan 1:08:29

And it he was like it feels like NWA is fuck the police but in a little bit of a different way and I was like man Bill Sinkevich is the shit come on if there's any more reason to like the guy it's like you know master artist and painter and I pushed the fucking you know envelope when it came to comic art and and he's also a huge hip hop head. And and there's a lot more in volume two. I don't want to like you know spoil everything but you know on top of the interview of Bill Sinkevich you've got a really good write up about Todd McFarland's uh uh connection to Outcast and uh uh the AT Ellions album what could have been which I think people should read on their own I've one of my favorite bits to write in this was I can't wait I know a little bit about that but um okay yeah I that AT Ellions album and you know I think you were the one that put me on to hey there's an a a comic a mini comic book in the album uh linear notes in the and AT aliens and then issue two picks up in the single for Jazuel which I can't find yet because of you I actually went to my record shop uh like a month ago and bought the ATLN CD just for that comic book.

Zach Norris 1:09:35

Yeah there's and there's like two or three different versions of the single so you've got to you gotta find the jewel case one and it's got a it's got a little yellow sticker that says comic book yeah yep yeah I got a few saves on on eBay.

Badr Milligan 1:09:46

But I I think I I'll go ahead and uh chime in here and say I think you put a spotlight on Chris Bocolo in this zine. Okay. And seeing his covers for Woo Massacre I will never forget being on I think two dope boys at the time which was my jam when back when like hip hop blogs were like the you know the way to get like that good shit. I'll never forget seeing Woo Massacre being posted on Two Dope Boys. And I mean I was all the way into comics at the time and I think that might have been one of my first real conscious exposures of like oh Chris Bocciolo and he's doing like what is this art style? Why does Method Man it look so dope with like ghost face? So to see like that mention in here it like really brings me back man is you know what's funny about that dude I was whenever that is 2009 2010 I was working at Hot Topic worked at Hot Topic for two years dude I was I was again real small town Yuma Arizona I worked at the small and I worked at zoomies footlocker journey hot topic like I was basically yeah doing the rounds basically my rounds when I would go to like Orange Park Mall here it was like those like these four shops absolutely are you about to tell me that continue continue I wonder if you're gonna go where I think you're gonna go with this back when I worked at Hot Topic they still sold music we had records in there we had CDs in there we'd get these big posters for new music releases and bro I remember when that album came out and we had all three covers and now and I I wish I'd have bought one andor all of them because now like tracking down they're not cheap.

Zach Norris 1:11:25

They're not like super super expensive but they're more than I want to pay for a single CD. And I just had all three of them right there in my face could have got a discount on them and everything. Yeah yeah and and had no idea at the time like obviously I knew they look like comic books. Sure. And I knew at the time like Wu Tang has this kind of affinity for comics. I didn't know how deep it went but I was like oh man this is really cool and there's three different covers like that's a cool move. I haven't seen this on an album before and they they just sat there on the shelf at Hot Topic and and I never did anything about it.

Badr Milligan 1:11:54

Well I I know that Hot Topic is good at get getting you a t-shirt with like every single album cover you could think of. And I want to say I remember seeing Hot Topic sell like that Wu Massacre design on a shirt. Now I'm gonna have to track down all three because you're right it is I didn't think about that then that these are basically variant covers. So cool play on like you know comic book culture meeting you know uh the the Wu Tang so and that felt just that felt unique for the time.

Zach Norris 1:12:22

Yes because now it happens a lot uh oh yeah oh yeah to to shout out our boy Mike Delmundo like the legend has it variant that's not the main cover for the Nas and Primo album that's the variant he did variants for Alfredo too like yep everybody not everybody but a lot of people are doing variant record covers now but I I don't want to say it was the first but it was the first one I noticed was that that Will Massacre doing three different three different covers.

Badr Milligan 1:12:48

Zach I got two more questions for you and and then we could wrap up but two important questions right when thinking about you know because you're mentioning like hey the this passion project you put your heart and soul into you were you had the benefit of having a really good support system with Now or Never with Aaron you know motivating you and you know the response from the customers and all of that. I I guess as someone who you know obviously works at a comic shop as well what would you say makes for a good self-published comic or indie comic like stand out to a retailer when when a creator walks in you know uh imagine like it's someone trying to you know hey I also did the zine about this thing I'm really passionate of can I sell it here like what what are some advice that you would give to the like that indie creator that's trying to also like you know get their work into a a legit comic shop a respected shop yeah man um that is a good question I would say first and foremost come with the right attitude um shops want to support people do well I I don't want to speak for all shops now or never wants to support independent artists and we make we make a point we make an emphasis to support local artists from like the San Diego area because that's where we are we want to support the people that support us but we've got books in the shop from indie creators in LA New York like we want to have that stuff in there but also the shop only has so much real estate.

Zach Norris 1:14:18

Even with our new expansion that we did in December there's only so much room to put comics so you you got to go in with the right attitude and reasonable expectations. If you're a guy that's making your own indie book and you roll into a shop and they say yo well try five copies be ready to do five copies. A lot of shops can't just like oh yeah give us 25 copies of this book Mr you know insert name here that nobody knows about I'm I'm fortunate to work in the shop and have the like you said the support system otherwise when I I've sold the I've sold the zine to record stores and I'll go in and I'm like hey man I sell these things for 15 bucks I'll sell it to you for seven basically cost for me. I'm not making any money I just want it to be in the record store. Yeah good opportunity first guy bought five from me because he was cool next dude bought three from me there's another shop that I'm gonna go hit up soon with with issue two but I would I would never go into the shop and be like hey man buy 10 copies of this like the the the hustle and the grind like that's all there we respect that attitude we respect that energy but you've got to be willing to work with shops because we can't just buy everything. Yeah um we we don't go hard on every Marvel book we don't go hard on every image book there's got to be a level of expectation and then the other thing I would say is is quality but don't think about quality as like the quality of your artwork because if you're an amateur if you're getting there like we we understand there's levels to this not everybody's gonna walk in and have a book that looks like you know Daniel Warren Johnson and be like hey can you buy my indie comic what I mean by quality is like the presentation. So many people will come in with stuff that is you know the the the cheapest paper at Kinko's and it's stapled together and it's all uneven and it's not folded properly and there's from like the DIY like punk and hardcore stuff there's an element of that that Aaron and I love but it doesn't look great on a shelf it doesn't look great on display somewhere because what we do when we buy these indie books from People Dude is we put them on the new book wall. Like when they when they first like if somebody comes in and sells us their book we put it on the new book wall with all that week's new releases on Wednesday and then after a week it goes into our local creator bins or our indie creator bins. And indie is not like image or boom or whatever it's like actual direct yeah indie guys um indie creators and so having a level of quality that is that you're proud of and that a shop can be like yes I can put this on a shelf and for a lot of shops that that bar is going to be at different levels but like when I made comics rule everything around me I knew off rip like I want this thing to be perfect bound because I want it to lay flat I don't want it to be 50 pages that are like bowed at the staples and then you know it's all it it looks janky in a bag and board and I knew what I wanted it to look like. I don't have all the design stuff figured out because that's a new world for me but I knew this is the way I want it printed. I want the cover to be a little bit of a heavier hard stock card stock than the paper so it looks and presents a certain way. And that was some of the most immediate feedback was like yo this looks and it feels good. And I'm like cool because now in your brain you're gonna read the inside and whether the inside is good or not to to everybody's own subjective opinion you at least feel like it looks good. Yeah feels good presentation presentation is so big the right attitude the right kind of quality on presentation and then like figuring out how shops do things coming in and trying to be a part of the community is the biggest thing dude we tell this to everybody like people that try to apply at the shop people who want to do events at the shop we just wish that more people understood we can't just have everybody in off the streets and do a thing. It's the people that come in and they want to have conversations and they want to support the shop and they want to be around they want to be a part of the San Diego comics community those are the people that we want to give a spotlight to because also again part of our kind of uh routine is we don't just buy these books and slap them on the shelf. A lot of times what we'll do is we'll tell these creators hey let's set up a local creator showcase. Let's have you do a little signing. You sell it yourself to people who come into Now or never on like a new comic book day or a Saturday sell it yourself. Make the most money you can selling it directly to people and then when you're done we'll buy copies off of you at a wholesale rate for then us to have for the shop because we don't do consignment because that's messy. We don't want to like have anybody's stuff and it gets messed up yada yada yada. So going into shops and being aware of like of their ecosystem of how they operate how they get down what they're into what moves for them we don't sell a ton of like indie all ages stuff right we will have a showcase and a signing with somebody who does indie all ages and we will support that book and we'll put it on the shelf but we'll do way better with like some indie horror thing or indie sci-fi because that's just like the demographic at the shop. We just pull those kind of people in, you know? And so I think I think that's the main thing is is figuring out a shop's ecosystem and being a part of their community. You know I heard Jason Aaron on a podcast ages ago talk about like when you pitch to publishers like trying to pay attention to how that publisher puts books out and what their release schedule is like and how do they do one shots versus anthologies versus mini series. And once you kind of see how a publisher operates and how their ecosystem works, then you know what to pitch them and when to pitch it to them. And that's I think people should pay attention to that with shops as well.

Badr Milligan 1:20:10

Do your homework. Yeah I like that presentation do your homework and and to your point about being invested in the community give more than you take uh you know I think there's a certain level of give before you all you know balance there. So that's awesome. All right Zach, I got one more question for you. This is a fun one. If you were handed uh the keys to write I don't know a four issue mini series uh about pairing any rap icon whether it be old or new past or present with any comic book character or artist who are you pairing up and and what's the premise and I know I just sprang this up on you I'll give you mine give you some time to think and where my head's at what are you thinking? I think there is an opportunity as someone who is a huge Brew Baker Sean Phillips fan and the whole kind of crime noir uh you know like that that whole premise I think there is an opportunity to tell more of those stories um in comic books about rap. And I'm specifically thinking of someone like like Freddie Gibbs or like Raekwon who kind of paint themselves as this like larger than life like just something like the nitty gritty crime. You know like when you think about Rayquan's first album it is very kind of like mafioso you know like Cuban Lynx, you know, the purple tape all of that I would love to see someone like Ed Rubick or Sean Phillips um you know do their story. You know like bring Rayquan's basically storytelling and all of the raps and like the imagery he has bring it to life in comic book form. I think there's an opportunity to tell more serious kind of crime noir comic books based off of like rap you know stories and and characters. I agree and I'm gonna show you oh the 12 reasons to die yeah Matt Rosenberg I talked to him about it.

Zach Norris 1:21:58

That is right I guess I guess it's been done somebody somebody read your dream journal dude Matt Rosenberg genius no you really do got it all when when you said the the crime stuff I was like oh he's right like and that actually do so that I'll I'll piggyback off that when I interviewed uh Mike Del Mundo for sketched because of course my answer is gonna have Mike like shout out Mike there to me um and I I would love for somebody to put me on game with with more people I I love learning that's that's a big part of the zine is like I don't know it all I'm I'm always trying to like learn new information and and soak it all up. I don't think there's anybody that is more there there's two dudes that are the comics and hip hop like comic professionals and I I think that's Sanford Green and Mike Del Mundo.

Badr Milligan 1:22:49

That's fair.

Zach Norris 1:22:50

As far as the the stuff that they've worked on and the way that they are connected to hip hop the artists they're connected to and then the books that they make and and the I said this in the in in the write up with sketch that like Mike's hip hop work is comics his comics work is hip hop point blank period. And I think you can say the same for Samford Green. When I talked to Mike I I joked with him that like I think there was there's a cool kind of like comic series you could do where like somebody's trying to go back in time and like fix uh like historical wrongs that have happened in hip hop like when Grandmaster Kaz got his rhyme books cut oh nice and when Riza's uh like studio flooded and like damaged all his recording gear. And then I think there's like somebody else who like there was a fire that like damaged a studio.

Badr Milligan 1:23:41

So you're basically pitching like hip-hop what ifs like what hip hop what if Riza's basement never flooded and we got that was you working on like a on a you got like someone's out entire album got lost.

Zach Norris 1:23:54

Yeah like a whole album and then like the the Wu Tang sound kind of like changes though because you like you lose this material you lose the you know that's good. But like that's that's it's I think there's a cool like I don't think it's Doctor Strange like maybe it's maybe it's Miles and Doctor Strange or somebody like needs to like jump back in time and like fix these things. But I think about it right now what I think I would like and you you you did this to my brain with the the crime thing the brewbreaker and Phillips I want to see a ninja turtle story that is ninja turtles and Wu Tang clan I didn't my brain just exploded I didn't even know that was a possible combination.

Intro Music 1:24:38

It's it's right there bro it's it is truly right there.

Zach Norris 1:24:41

Once again it turtles and Wu Tang clan going up against the foot illustrated by Mike Del Mundo written by me and Mike Del Mundo.

Badr Milligan 1:24:54

Well now I'm like shit I kind of you know I I Mike Del Mundo obviously that's the man right there. Now I'm like I don't think I've ever seen Chris Botcholo draw the TMNT now I really want to see that he's drawing the Wu Tang apparently yeah damn good answer. Okay real quick Zach one last lightning round question that just came to mind uh let's let's end it on another comic book high note what is your favorite comic book to recommend to people at now or never like is there a sleeper comic book title that you feel like a not enough people are reading let's end it that way oh man gotta be you want it to be like a sleeper thing that people aren't reading or think wherever your mind goes yeah um because the one that I sell the most of dude is Murder Falcon.

Zach Norris 1:25:35

I yeah beautiful comic incredible book I I push Murder Falcon and and Daniel Johnson stuff on people a lot. I love and we're getting a lot more of this nowadays um you you and I could have a whole other conversation about this but people are so much more receptive to suggestions and people are looking for suggestions.

Badr Milligan 1:25:54

I think that's the beauty of of the comic shop culture is that it's fun to go in and you know overhear a conversation or be recommended some especially when you build a good rapport with the staff or you know the the the person running the shop you know and they start to get to know your taste big shout out to my old Amber Super Comic Shop countergirl that's how it used to be I used to be going there and she'd be like I think you would fuck with this book because I know you like XYZ yeah so no and and that's that's the name of the game and we we have over 300 subscribers and and that's that's our our bread and butter like especially when somebody's got something that we that's coming out that we really love.

Zach Norris 1:26:34

So I will say this I I push DWJ and Murder Falcon a lot. Murder Falcon is probably one of my favorite books if not my like top tier favorite book of the last you know 10 years or so but I think the the sleeper book that I try to throw people on a lot is a Tradmore book. It is uh written by a gentleman whose name I'm not sure if I'm pronouncing this right it's his name is Alish Cott A-L-E-S-K-O-T um he did some stuff for Marvel back in the day he did this image series called Zero that was like an anthology spy series where each each issue was illustrated by somebody different and Tradmore worked with him on that too but Ailish and Trad teamed up I think just before Silver Surfer Black or just after I'm not sure the timeline and they did a book called The New World and it is it gets lost in the in the trad like once once he did Silver Surfer Black and then Doctor Strange Fall Sunrise like people people know those people know Luther Strode new new world slips under the radar dude and it's out of print from image right now so if you guys are listening to this go track one down on the secondary market because you're not going to be able to get it from your shop unless they already have it on the shelf. The new world is Romeo and Juliet in a dystopian America where we've become a surveillance state that's obsessed With reality TV. So it's like right now.

Intro Music 1:28:04

I was about to say, Zach, I I asked for a comic recommendation. I didn't want to like watch the news.

Zach Norris 1:28:08

Yeah, I didn't even give you like a biography of America. But no, man. And it is it's it's funny, it's sweet, it's got a ton of heart, it's got some epic action, and it's got Tradmore, like kind of kind of just after Legacy of Luther Strode, where he's he's pushing the boundaries and he's he's starting to get a little more bendy with it and a little more loose with proportions and stuff, but he hasn't gone full like Silver Surfer Black, Doctor Strange, False Sunrise. Yeah, yeah. And the the main character is a guy named Kirby who is straight edge. He's a hacker. He falls in love with a young woman whose name I can't remember right now, but she is a police officer that participates in this like reality TV thing where she busts, you know, bad guys doing crime, and then viewers vote if she's gonna kill him or not. Oh wow. And and she's like kind of bucking against the system, they meet, and it becomes this whole like big crazy adventure um with Trad Moore drawing his ass off. And uh, so so go find the new world if you if you can find it somewhere.

Badr Milligan 1:29:16

Yo, uh, it's on my list now. Thank you for putting me on the game. I think with that, Zach, this has been fantastic, ladies and gents. This is the short box podcast, and we just finished talking to Zach Norris about a whole lot of hip hop, a whole lot of comic books. We talked about his original Zine Cream, Comics Rule, everything around me. Like I said, I'll have links to the digital version of volume one, uh, which you can buy on Gumroad. And then uh you wanna go ahead and stay uh um uh in tune with what Zach's going on, uh, so that way whenever he announces a volume two digitally available, you can get that too. Or if you're in the San Diego area, if you're close to Now or Never Comics, go in there, uh see how amazing the shop is for yourself. Go pick up a copy of volume two in person, go pick up a copy of volume one while you're at it. Um yeah, I'm gonna have links to uh uh Zach's social media so that way you can stay up to date with what he's got going on. And uh yeah, Zach, this has been great. Um, probably won't be the last because I feel like I got a hundred more questions about just you running the shop and then obviously some more hip-hop stuff. But this was awesome, man. Best of luck with what you got going on with cream, like it's special, it's needed, and I'm glad uh glad we had to talk about it.

Zach Norris 1:30:24

No, man. Thank thank you for having me. You you run a great uh ship over here, you got a great show. You've talked to some really epic guests, so I am humbled and uh and honored to be a part of the the short box nation, the short box guest uh roster running. So thank you very much, man. Shout out now or never comics. Uh comics roll everything around me. There we go. Hell yeah. Hey yo, run it back. Which earliest musical memory? Um, I think MC Hammer, dude. Can't touch this. Um my parents uh were were young. Um they had me when they were 22. They were young, but they were not hip. Uh my mom was very much just like top 40 radio, and dad was very much just like kind of hair metal, southern stuff, country guy. And so a lot of the music I was exposed to was either it was straight from the radio or straight from TV. And when uh like when TRL and stuff like that started cracking off, that was basically my yeah, like gateway drug. That was the gateway drug. I'm the oldest of three brothers, I didn't have anybody putting me on game at at this point, and so it was really just like oh, these music videos are cool. This is what I like. Like probably the first music I loved was uh I know the first CD I ever asked my parents for was Puff Daddy and the Bad Boy Family, No Way Out. Good album, by the way. You know, I know it's like a little controversial now. It's crazy to say that now, but it's got some hit-ons on right. Um some some good good songs on there. And the first CD they ever bought me was Hammer Don't Hurt Em, which had Can Touch This on it. And I I talk about that in the first issue of the zine, but I asked them to get me Puff Daddy and the Bad Boy uh family, and then the very next CD I bought, my own money, my own allowance. I saw the video for Intergalactic and I was like, yo, what the fuck is this? Like this is amazing video at that time. Melting my brain out of my ears.