Sanford Greene 0:00

In this episode of the short box. The story basically is about what Superman represents versus what Darkseid represents and all its iterations of whatever that is in terms of the light versus the dark. So that's all the types of archetypes and characters and influences, all those things are intertwined in the book. So it was more of me not necessarily drawing Superman, but what he represents. In a weird way, I was able to channel that side of things, which honestly, looking back at it, that's how you should draw or approach Superman. Don't try to draw the logo on his chest, draw what it represents.

Intro Music 0:51

Ladies and gentlemen, the Shortbox Podcast is recorded live from Jacksonville, Florida.

Badr Milligan 1:16

Shortbox Nation. Hello again. Welcome back. You know the deal. Thanks for pressing play. None of this would be worth it if you didn't press play. I appreciate you being here. If you're brand new, welcome to the show. I'm your host, Bodder Milligan, and this is the Short Box Podcast, the comic book talk show where we bridge the gap between the panels of your favorite comics with the people who put their blood, sweat, and tears into making them. And you know, this is uh this episode is bridging the gap between the panels of some of my favorite comics with uh someone that I really appreciate. This is episode 514, and today I'm joined by award-winning comic artist Sanford Green. You may know him as the co-creator and lead artist for the Ringo and Eisner award-winning comic series, Bitter Root from Image Comics. He's also a professor at Benedict College in Columbia, South Carolina, where he teaches sequential art and masterclasses in comic book instruction. Uh, Sanford Green is also known for his work on titles like Black Panther and Powerman and Iron Fist for Marvel Comics, and his fingerprints are all over, one of the best Spider-Man movies of all time. And I'm talking about Spider-Man across the Spider-Verse, where he served as one of the lead concept artists for the franchise. And then I mentioned he's also a professor at the Benedict College in Columbia, South Carolina, where he teaches sequential art. I don't know why I had that in my intro twice, but it's here in the script. I had to read it. If any of this sounds familiar, it's because Sanford is no stranger to the podcast. I think this is technically his third appearance before this. His most recent appearance was two years ago to talk about Doom Number One, which in my opinion is one of the best comics put up by Marvel in recent times. It's absolutely a perfect comic. Sanford is back on the podcast today to talk about his new project for the Distinguished Competition, which is a major new DC all in one-shot that he's drawing. It's called Dark Side versus the World. It's obviously coming out through DC Comics, but he's uh doing this alongside some of the biggest names in comics right now, including Scott Snyder, Joshua Williamson, and artist Yasmin Poutri. Hopefully I'm saying that right. The 48-page special comes out on Wednesday, October 28th, and aims to tell the unforgettable story of Darkseid's past, present, and future. So everything you've wanted to know about Darkseid will be uh sounds like in this uh one-shot. The one shot will also set up everything to come for the DC Universe and the absolute universe in 2027. I mean, it sells itself, right? Uh, we got a lot of things to talk about, obviously. And I feel like this is an appropriate drop right here. We've got things to talk about. Thank you, Jon Stewart of Green Lantern Fame from DC Comics. Come on, it all makes sense, right? Anyways, we'll talk to Sanford about what it's like tackling two of the most iconic superheroes in mainstream comics. We'll also talk about what fans of Dark Side and Superhero Comics can expect from the new one shot. But before we get started on that, big shoutouts to our sponsors and supporters, including Gotham City Limit Comic Shop. It's not only the longest running sponsor of the podcast, but also the best comic shop in Northeast Florida. If you live in Jacksville, you don't gotta take my word for it. Go check it out for yourself, right? Visit them today on Southside Boulevard. And if you don't live in the area with good news, you can buy comics from them on this thing called the internet. All right, if you go to GothamCityLimit.com, you can buy comics from them, you can buy shop exclusive. You know, Ben's got like 500 shop exclusive variants on that site. So check it out, GothamCityLimit.com. And what kind of humble, mild mannered podcast host would I be if I didn't shout out the loyal supporters over on the short box Patreon? Big shout out to the Patroni homies. Thank you for your support. Thank you for keeping me uh, you know, motivate me, you know, help me pay the bills, keep the lights on here at short box HQ. If you're not a Patroni homie yet and you enjoyed the show and want to be counted among the short box elite, we'll consider becoming a short box patroni at patreon.com slash the short box for less than five bucks a month, which is about the same price as a comic book nowadays. You get a lot of cool perks and rewards in exchange for that support, but you also get to be immortalized in short box history with a shout out by name at the end of every episode. Once again, that's Patreon.com slash the shortbox. Now, without further ado, let's bring on our guest of honor today. Making his third appearance on the podcast and calling in all the way from South Carolina, it's comic artist Sanford Green. What up, Sanford? Hello, hello. Nice to have you back. It only took you two years, but we're back now.

Sanford Greene 5:50

Hey, I I I got something uh that's worth talking to you. Yeah, yeah.

Badr Milligan 5:56

It seems like it's been a rather busy summer for you this year. I mean, from you you had a uh pretty big announcement at San Diego Comic-Con. You announced uh Bitterroot, black and white, a new black and white version of Bitterroot. Um there was the whole Ink Alliance uh variant cover, which we'll get into a little more later in this episode. And now you're on the show talking about, you know, uh Dark Side versus the World, like this big new one-shot. From your perspective, and I want to hear it from your words, how would you describe the last couple of months? Is this like by far the busiest summer you've had, or does this pale in comparison to some previous years?

Sanford Greene 6:32

Dude, I'm always busy, man. Um, it's all a blur, I guess. You know, you you do one thing and you move on to the next thing. Um, and look, each one of those things you mentioned, they're all special in their own right. And I try to just keep my head uh, I guess, keep the focus and and not get too distracted by, you know, all the other things that are taking place. Um, so yeah, I I you know I try to keep that mindset so that I can stay busy, if that makes sense.

Badr Milligan 7:05

Yeah, no, absolutely. Um I can tell that you are you're busy, and I probably caught you uh uh like in the middle of working on something because you're wearing uh I don't even know what those are called. Like what are those called?

Sanford Greene 7:17

Artist artist sleeves? It's a device that makes you feel like you're doing something healthy with your your limbs, but it you know it's just for uh aesthetics at this point. Yeah, it's not yeah. Well, I use it to keep from uh my hand resting against uh my my wake um um I have one of those. Actually, it's right in front of me, this uh 27-inch uh wake-um screen. Oh wow. So I use that to um keep my hands from actually pressing against the actual screen. The screen gets a little warm, and um, so you want that that nice smooth surface.

Badr Milligan 7:59

I thought maybe it was one of those, it looks like one of those like um um you ever seen like them copper sleeves that they advertise on TV?

Sanford Greene 8:05

So like you know I got I got I got five different versions of those. I got I got two of them for my knees. Yeah I try to do some some type of I don't know, I try to stay active with uh a little bit. I I go out for runs and walks and stuff. So I got two of those, two types of those, three types of gloves. Got it, got it.

Badr Milligan 8:26

Can I tell you what I've um become a believer in this year? Uh me and my wife did a lot of traveling this year, a lot of flights, a lot of just time on an airplane. And she convinced me to adopt the senior citizen socks, all right? The the them long, big socks that go up to your knees, but they're compression socks. And she convinced me, like, hey, look, we're gonna be flying a lot. I'm telling you, it holds, you know, it keeps the blood flowing and this and that. And I was like, but I look like a dork. I can't wear shorts on the plane. I like wearing shorts on the plane, I like to be comfortable, and I'm like, I look foolish wearing these and you know on a plane, but man, I'm a believer in it. So I'm all about like, yeah, I think I've bought into the marketing of like, oh, it's got copper in it, sign me up, whatever you need.

Sanford Greene 9:08

Bro, I I I I've got I got those too. So yeah, man, I'm I'm I'm at that age now where whatever it takes to be comfortable, I don't care about fashion statements per se. I mean, I I love I love uh a good pair of Jordans, but if they're gonna kill my feet, no, we're not doing that. I wear them to events or places that I know I'm gonna be sitting away. So yeah, no, no walking. So you won't see the stylish stuff too much at Comic Cons. I'll I'll say that.

Badr Milligan 9:41

Yeah, I gotcha. So everyone, it seems like it also feels like you have, like I said, from the house I look good at, it looks like a very busy, active year. You got a lot going on in terms of uh, you know, like that. I mentioned that you also teach college for the third time that I mentioned. You're also a professor teaching art at Benedict College. Um, you're wearing a uh the oh 1000 shirt, which is I think I mentioned it on the interview with Chuck Brown, is finally getting released in in physical form. Your uh what Ringo Award-winning webcomic is finally getting a physical release. It's coming out in October. You got this bit of root just wrapped up, by the way, the next movement. Man, you got I mean, yeah, it's uh I'm I'm trying to figure out how you squeeze in. I mean, how like tonight? It sounds like you're going right back to drawing. Like, how late are you working on stuff on a typical day? Like, oh, like when do you go to bed? Yeah, when do you go to bed?

Sanford Greene 10:32

When I go to bed, uh when when the work is done, man. That's the best way I can put it.

Badr Milligan 10:37

Um when do you know the work is done though? Like, do you set a goal or like hey, I want to knock out three pages today or tonight?

Sanford Greene 10:44

Yeah, it's like if there's a you know, if there's a specific, you know, uh benchmark, you you you set that and then you you make that benchmark, and then if you're like me, who you know, I'm a little bit of a uh a workaholic, I guess, um admittedly so um you hit that benchmark and then you try to push. Well, what if I do a little more that you know could help get me ahead, or it never works, to be honest with you. It never works because you you do that and then psychologically you think, oh, I'm ahead now, and then you lose time. So you're right back to where you were. So I never I just don't think about it. I I just try to hit the main deadlines and and focus on that, whatever that takes. If I have to stay up, you know, until one in the morning, two in the morning, I start work around 10, 10 a.m. Or, you know, but I do take breaks. I take lunch breaks, I take, like I said, I do walks, runs. I have to do that now. Yeah. In order to do that type of work, you know, I need an outlet. So those days I definitely look forward to being able to go for those walks and runs and stuff like that. Clear my head, come up with different ideas. And and, you know, I honestly, uh a lot of my ideas, especially for covers, they they come around the time I'm going for walks.

Badr Milligan 12:05

Oh wow, that's cool. And we'll probably get into that a little more. But um something just came to mind. Last time you were here, which uh I think it was like uh August 2024, it was like right before Doom number one um was coming out. But last time you were here, uh obviously we talked about Bitter Root, and you had teased, you know, Bitter Root, the next movement was coming, uh was you know, uh was coming out soon. Now that that series has wrapped up, I think it wrapped up actually last issue, number five came out August 6, 2025. Um now, oh that actually Tom, what am I thinking? That was last year. Holy shit. Yeah, I am all wow.

Sanford Greene 12:43

It lost a whole year. What am I thinking? I was listening, I was listening to you, and I was like, does you realize that? Right. You know what it is?

Badr Milligan 12:51

You know what it is? Because I and my with my typical late ass finally caught up with it. And I uh I I I I'm in the I think I'm on issue three right now. I got two more issues to go. So for me, I'm finally catching up with it. And I want to say, I just want to tell you right now, you are like, I mean, I'm a year late, but you are spazzing on this. You have you absolutely spazzed on this series, man. And and tell me this, I guess what surprised you the most about coming back to these characters after a four-year gap. Maybe that's where I'm getting some of the my math wrong, is that Bitterroot ended uh, I think, with issue 15 in 2021. And you know, like there was a four-year gap.

Sanford Greene 13:29

So for you, how was it 2021? It might have been. So I I you you might be, I'm just as bad, man. Everything is a blur. Just kind of how we're pacing everything out. Once the final issue dropped, we had the trade that came, the third trade, right? So somewhere between the third trade and then the omnibus came, right? And so those things kind of helped to bridge all that time. Ah, yeah. Um, because it it, you know, because you're right. When you said that, I'm like, was it really that much? And yes and no, because uh yeah, the the in terms of the single issues, but sure we found a way to thread the time to make it seem a little more closer. And honestly, that's how most of these comics work. If you want to pull back the scale, I mean, let's, you know, probably the nest the uh most notable one is saga. Uh that book came out, yeah. You know, that book, but once it comes out individually again, it feels like it was always there. Yeah, you know, only if you're paying close attention does it feel like, oh my god, it's taking forever. But you got the the lore of saga. So the fans are keeping it alive and keeping it in the forefront. So we're not saying that we're saga, but we we know that we have some trust uh uh excited and and rabbit trustworthy. Rabbit fans, I guess, trustworthy fans, fans that are um bringing in new fandom because uh people are still talking about the first iteration of the Sangrier family. Funny enough, uh the next movement, it feels like that story needs more time to cook, which we're we'll we'll be working on that. We're getting more opportunities to uh to do that, you know, down the road. But we also realize that people just love that first iteration of the family that was introduced in volumes one, two, and three. Long story short, we're we got something planned for that too.

Badr Milligan 15:40

I I I want to give shout-outs to you, and tell me if if you know this is new to me, but is this your first time working with the colorist uh Matt Herms on this? Or have you always worked with Matt Herms?

Sanford Greene 15:49

Funny enough, he came upon my radar on the short stories that we did for the Red Summer special. He did a short story with Kari Randolph, and I was like, Who's this dude? This or this person, I didn't know if it was a guy or girl. And um reached out to uh Kari and Carrie's yeah, this guy he just came on the scene and stuff. Is he he just gets it, he understands how to create great color. It's not the typical, you know, color, you know, approach that some of these colorists do, like that factory-made stuff is what I call it. You know, skies are straight blue and grass is straight green. No, he does this thing where it's he plays with the mood, you know, he throws a little green in the in the sky, he throws a little red in the grass, you know, that kind of stuff. And I I just love that kind of thing. Curry linked us up, and um, and we've been working ever since, to be honest with you. He's done cover stuff for me over over the years, and um I thought it would be perfect to bring him in on the the next movement, so to really introduce him. And truth be told, he's he's getting to the point where he's gonna be too busy for me. He's doing he's doing so much stuff over at DC. Yeah, speaking of that, he's the colorist on uh dark side stuff.

Badr Milligan 17:11

Dude, he's uh everything you said, uh he's excellent. I I think he brings a certain cinematic quality to your pencils and and your inks. Not saying that it was missing in in the previous series, but it's just different. This one, it just felt different. I'm uh and I think that's why I had to say, like, even spaz, like you're spazzing on this. Like y'all two are killing.

Sanford Greene 17:32

Yeah. Wait, do you see the uh dark side stuff? He helped do some touch-ups and some assist work on the Doom stuff. He didn't get um credit for it, but I do want to shout him out um because he he helped to solve some things that we were trying to uh come to some type of solution on, and he came in and helped assist on that stuff too. So I said, you know, uh well, I gotta reward his cat because if he can do that, just imagine, you know, allowing him the space to do it all. And so obviously the uh bit of root was one thing, but this dark side thing is a whole nother ball game.

Badr Milligan 18:10

Well, look, uh, shout out Matt Herms. He's doing amazing work. I can't wait to see more. But let's go ahead and actually dive right into to Dark Side. And and since you brought up, you know, how uh uh your walks sometimes give you these ideas for some of your covers, I would like to start with talking about by talking about the cover of Dark Side versus the World. Once again, it comes out October 28th. If you are curious about ensuring that you uh I know talking to listeners at this point, uh Final Order cutoff is October 5th, which should be a Monday. I think this episode will drop right before that. So, anyways, that's a reminder. But back to this cover, I mean, there is something very cinematic about this cover. It could be a movie poster. I mean, you've got Dark Side, you've got Superman on here, you've got Big Barta, you've got Orion, Mr. Miracle is here. Uh what was the the thought process for for the cover itself? Like, was there a lot of direction given to you, or were you kind of given a free rein?

Sanford Greene 19:01

A little bit of both. Shout outs to um Paul Kaminsky, who's the editor for uh the Dark Side uh one shot. Truth be told, we didn't know what the story was gonna be about specifically. We knew it was gonna be obviously about uh about Darkseid, but uh what direction we would go, uh, we didn't really have that nailed down yet. Uh Scott, Scott Snyder, he and Josh Williamson needed to kind of make sure that they linked everything together and made sure that it all would uh be cohesive. So the direction was hey, just do something cool with Darkseid and put these characters if you like, you know, some fourth world stuff and some, you know, uh, of course, Superman. Um, and funny enough, Superman was always a challenge for me to to get into artistically. But uh once I got the basis of uh what the uh story would be or could be, even though we didn't have the story nailed down just yet, it it kind of got me really fired up in as far as what the book looks like, Superman definitely is a focus, but it has that dark side element that the hovers over everything. And if you enjoyed what I did with Doom, just imagine me doing that with this special.

Badr Milligan 20:22

Hmm, that makes me excited. Um real quick to to touch on that what you said about Superman being a challenge. I told you, you know, we're recording the same day that I just dropped an episode, uh, my conversation with Chuck Brown, which was amazing. Uh obviously, you two uh know each other, you guys uh uh have worked each other on Bitterroot, but on the he brought up Superman and he brought up how it's difficult, how it was difficult for him to write Superman because he is uh such an optimist, he is you know this good guy all the time. And he was like, you know, for me, you know, I had to dig deep, you know, like I I write more darker fucked up stuff, and it's you know what I'm saying? Like to have to write someone that is always optimistic, you know, can be challenging, which I it was interesting to hear. What was so difficult about Superman for you from an artistic standpoint?

Sanford Greene 21:09

Well, once we got the story beats down, I I really saw a really great opportunity to put my uh influence or take on on this character. The story basically is about what Superman represents versus what dark side represents, and all this iterations of whatever that is. So just imagine whatever that is in terms of the light versus the dark. So whatever that light represents, all of that with Superman, the dark, all of that with uh dark side, right? So that's all the types of uh archetypes and and and and characters and and and influences, all those things are uh intertwined in the in the book. So it was more of Me not necessarily drawing Superman, but what he represents in a weird way, I was able to channel that side of things, which honestly, looking back at it, that's how you should draw or approach Superman. Don't try to draw the logo on his chest, draw what it represents, if that makes sense. And so for me, I started thinking about other characters, not necessarily just in the DC universe, but just in general, that could represent that stuff. I pull from anime, especially Shonen. Shonen is so.

Badr Milligan 22:38

I was just yeah, my mind went to My Hero Academia as soon as you mentioned exactly.

Sanford Greene 22:41

So any of those aspirational, never give up, always doing it for the greater good, sure, selfless acts of just heroism, those are the things that I really pulled from. And obviously, uh uh manga and anime is that's the a huge uh huge foundation for those stories.

Badr Milligan 23:06

Sarah, what what what's some of your favorite like anime and manga? Because it's not the first time I've heard you talk about pulling from from there for for inspiration.

Sanford Greene 23:14

Funny enough, I like the darker stuff, man. Oh, same like Chainsaw Man is like a big one. Yeah, jujitsu kai's, and I guess that one's not necessary because that's that's still in the shonen realm. You know, hero academia is definitely uh it's cool. It's not uh I don't know if it's the I like I like it, it's it's it's but it's not the the one that I sure am like I'm gonna you know look like this bleach this latest story arc that's happening right now. Um so I am a big shonen guy, but uh you know you you you get me sit you know watching some you know uh some of this stuff like the chainsaw man's and I I would even say um Demon Slayer that one you know that one definitely has has a lot of that is is Shonen as well, but it can go dark, right? It can go pretty dark, like whereas Hero Academia has some elements, but it's not really sure, sure. But yeah, Demon Slayer and Chainsaw, man. Yeah, they push it. Yeah, they push it, man. I'm like, yeah, let's see if we can do that. And so those those things were definitely sprinkled into this dark side.

Badr Milligan 24:27

Now we've mentioned uh Doom a couple times, and I even mentioned last time you were on the show was to promote Doom, which came out. I'm looking at the date now. Doom number one came out May 15, 2024. I've already said that Dark Side of Rest of the World will come out this October 28th. How soon did the opportunity to work on Dark Side of Rest of the World come out in relation to Doom number one? Was like Doom already out in the world, or were current conversations with you about doing this Dark Side special being had before that?

Sanford Greene 24:54

Oh no, that that that was nothing close to that. Um wow. Funny enough, though, this might be a bit of uh an exclusive. How Darkseid came about was because of a retailer. They were telling me that Dune was doing so well in their store that they, you know, like most of the stores, which you know, I'm very grateful for. Um, and and it's humbling to hear how well that that uh story did. I was obviously, you know, not working on that at the time. I think I was on Bitter Root, finishing up Next Movement. Okay. And he uh said, you know, it would be cool for you to do something else like this doom thing. I said to him, Yeah, I'm trying to work out something with with DC right now. I don't know what that would look like. And uh at the time, absolute was definitely starting to become like what it is now. You you saw the the groundswell of it. And I said to him, I would love to do something that has the same potential, but not necessarily that because even at that time, everyone was jumping on absolute, you name it. Everyone wanted to do something. It was absolute mania, if I could use it. Absolutely, it still is. It's is I think it's even bigger now. So, you know, but I knew that um I knew that I wanted to do something, you know, there because the retailer did state that, dude, for the next five years, he said to me, it's gonna be absolute, it's gonna be DC. DC's gonna be, you know, hitting, hitting all the marks. So he said, what would be the equivalent of something like Doom, you know, uh there at uh at DC. And um I said, I don't know, man, maybe Dark Side. And he said, that's it, that's it. And so um I made a call or email to Scott because me and Scott Snyder, we we talked a few, you know, through at a convention and stuff, and and we were, you know, we were just talking about you know possibilities and stuff like that. And um when I reached out to him and said, hey man, um, what do you think about Darkseid? And it and then it replies back to me probably five minutes later, what do you what do you what are you saying? Do you want to do something with Darkseid? And I said, uh maybe, yeah, man. And so um the ball kind of started to roll there. Now that ball was definitely slow, at least in my mind, it was slow because I was I started to get excited about it, but it took about a year to get that that bad boy going. And you know, again, credit to Paul Kaminsky and in DC. They have a plan and they have everything in place. They're not just gonna throw stuff out there for the sake of throwing it out there. And that's the thing that's different from what I did with Doom, though Doom was great because it was its own thing. This dark side thing really is kind of the it's setting up the next chapter, yeah. Setting up everything, and so it's gonna be huge for where everything is going.

Badr Milligan 28:02

No, I appreciate you giving that that background. And I I feel the same way. It's like actually, I I think last year when we were or last time when we were talking about Doom, you mentioned like how Doom has always been has always fascinated you, and Doom number one was a love letter to not only Dr. Doom, but also Marvel. Um I'm curious, like, how would you equate this new special, this this dark side versus the world? Like if Doom was a love letter, what is what is dark side versus the world to you? How would you describe that?

Sanford Greene 28:31

It's uh an uh an affidavit. It's it's we can it's a it's a unredacted uh affidavit, man, because it like I said, it's just gonna, it's just setting up and and laying out everything that is to come. What has what has come, what has passed, and what is to come.

Badr Milligan 28:54

Yeah. Uh you know, it's just speaking, I don't want to keep comparing to Doom, but I do think it is such an interesting pipeline and story that you go from writing this like very heartfelt, very successful Doom one-shot with, you know, uh arguably the the best writer at at Marvel with Hickman. And now you're at the Distinguished Competition, you know, writing its, you know, most premier super villain with, you know, two of the best writers going on right now with uh Snyder and Williamson. I remember you mentioned saying that there was an image of Doom burned in your head, and that was Secret Wars number 10. The cover, the Secret Wars number 10, where it's Doom all tattered, and he's facing, you know, he's he's he's ready to attack. Was there a was there a dark side image that was that maybe served as your North Star? I guess what were you tapping in in terms of like trying to get you know inspired for this?

Sanford Greene 29:47

Um not necessarily, other than I will show you this. I I got it still nearby because part of yeah, it was part of my uh research, this book here. Oh, uh what is that? Hunt uh Hunger Dogs, that's right. Hunger Dogs, yeah. This book right here was the thing that got me, you know, got me set up for you know getting the frame of mind because it's so like it is so like like like most Kirby Kirby stuff, especially the fourth world stuff, it was so trippy. I got some trippy stuff in in this this dark side one shot, but yeah, I mean even the panel layouts here, you know. I'm I'm playing around with some of this kind of information in uh in the dark side book.

Badr Milligan 30:38

I'll I'll be honest, I don't know if I've ever actually read Hunger Dogs, and I'm I'm trying to add it to my Amazon card as as we speak right now. Um that's a damn good one. I mean, I've seen that cover uh all the time, and I've seen panels from it, but okay, yeah, you're digging deep for that one. All right.

Sanford Greene 30:52

Well, yeah, that that that's the type of book that um was the guy's um just because my brain is is uh the um comic uh Kfabe. They were doing Kfabe, yeah. That would be the type of book that they would reduce.

Badr Milligan 31:07

Yes, absolutely. Yeah, uh Rest in peace, Ed Piscore, and yeah, Jim Rugg. That is definitely that is definitely one that they would have. Um I I guess speaking some more, you know, in comparison. The last time you're here, we talked a lot about what you were learning, you know, what it was like working with Hickman. I think you mentioned like he's very he was very inquisitive. He was also super supportive of the vision you had and you know let letting you take lead. What's what's a collaboration of Scott Snyder like? Like how does it differ?

Sanford Greene 31:34

Well, because this right here is more you know, continuity. It is like the again, it's the the the foundation of where everything is going. It it is definitely his idea and concept, but he did allow me to do the the story beats. Um, so it was pretty much uh uh uh you know, even though this is uh a DC venture, it was Marvel style in terms of the scripting. So yeah, he he gave me the broad strokes of everything, and I was able to break that down into painting. I I it's so much fun doing it like that. I don't know. I'm I'm kind of spoiled with with that. I know not everyone writes like that, but that is a lot of fun. And so Scott and Hickman, they know how to cater to the artists and and allow the artists to have fun, but they also know how to bring all that together and be succinct in the storytelling.

Badr Milligan 32:32

Artistically speaking, like from uh from an artist's perspective, what can you do with dark side that you can't necessarily do with Doom? Like, was there anything that drawing dark side and it sounds like his entire like history that you could do that you weren't maybe able to do or flex with with Dr. Doom? Because it just didn't make sense, maybe creatively or matched up the story.

Sanford Greene 33:43

Well, it wasn't necessarily anything I couldn't do. It's just that their stories, you know, their origin stories. Um, I I did a lot more of the origin story with Darkseid, I would say that. Or at least I I keyed in on it a little more. The Doom one shot uh we hinted around it. We didn't really uh give you like some you know actual pages of story. This uh Darkseid has pages of story of his history, and then it goes it goes it goes in places where you're like oh wow, okay. So it for 30 pages, uh and that's the other thing too. It's it it it is uh 10 pages less, but it's more story, which is interesting to say because it's all catered towards where the whole DC universe is headed, and how it fits into that to that giant bigger story.

Badr Milligan 34:44

I got you. I I also see that um I mentioned the intro, but uh, you're not the only artist on on working on this uh book. It's also credited to Yasmin Poutri. Uh, can you speak a little more about the did you have a chance to work with her? What's her involvement with the issue?

Sanford Greene 34:57

Um no, I haven't.

Badr Milligan 35:00

Okay. Had a chance. All right. Then may yeah, I I couldn't find much more other than what the Celissa or what's on League of Comic Geek. So I'm not sure if she did her backup or whatnot, but okay.

Sanford Greene 35:11

Yeah, that the um I will say that the the Joshua Williamson is doing a backup story. Okay, then maybe that's where the artists. So yeah, that's what that's what that is.

Badr Milligan 35:21

Okay, I guess uh you know, it it's cool hearing you say that you guys basically were kind of like Marvel style. So, you know, you were given a very loose script, more so an outline on a DC book. Because that was one of my next questions is like, is there really any distinction between the two companies in terms of how you approach the work? Like, does Marvel really do anything different that DC doesn't and vice versa? I think it's just interesting that you, you know, you're crossing a company lines and you're working on two of their most flagship characters. I would think that, you know, I would think that there would be like some significant differences in how they approach scripting or how you turn in art. I don't know. Like, is there any major differences?

Sanford Greene 36:04

Um, not really. I mean, you know, you're you're talking uh big two corporate comics, you know, you you you you play with each uh you know box of toys and you put them back after that.

Badr Milligan 36:19

Yeah, that's a great analogy. Yeah, yeah. Saber, can I can I ask you just a random question? I asked Chuck Brown this, and I think I might make it a recurring uh question. Do you remember the first thing you bought with your first comic book paycheck that wasn't related to like bills or a responsibility thing? What's like the first thing you splurged on with your your comic check money?

Sanford Greene 36:39

You mean like the first thing I the first time I got paid for doing anything? Yeah.

Badr Milligan 36:45

You know, give me give me both. Maybe the very first one, and then maybe the one that was like, okay, I'm doing this full time, and you know, I can I can afford to splurge.

Sanford Greene 36:53

Sure. Um man, I can't remember. It probably was a bill. The first time. The first I mean, I still do that, but first time it was just uh taking care of the you know the family and the bills and all that stuff, and kept kept pushing from there. But uh I would say a couple of years ago, um, I sold some I sold some original art, um, actually the Doom art. Oh, and wow, this uh gentleman bought the entire thing and it was Was it Reed Richards himself? Funny enough, he is a doctor. He is a doctor. Okay, so that explains how you can afford that. I got it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, but um that happened. And then um Spider-Verse, I did original, I had some original art from that. Uh some folks purchased uh those original pieces from the Spider-Verse project, and um yeah, I I took care of some stuff for sure. Uh, but I got myself a Silverado Black. Bought a whip?

Badr Milligan 37:57

Come on, yeah, but I bought a whip.

Sanford Greene 37:59

Bought a whip, man.

Badr Milligan 38:01

Do you do you buy all right? So I I imagine you sell, I mean, obviously, you just say the two instances of you selling original art. Do you ever buy original art? Like what's uh have you bought some original art in your lifetime?

Sanford Greene 38:12

Dude, yeah, man. I I'm starting to the bug is has bitten me. Well, not full bites just yet, but uh I got nibbled a few times. Um, so I I I grab something. Um I like, you know, you like what you like, but I also like stuff that I can learn from. Um, I got a Stuart Eminem X-Men page that, you know, um it's it's nice to have you know some of these artists in in the same camp, you know, we're wrapped by the same um art rep with the Felix. So I, you know, whenever there's a drop, I'm like, hey, um, you know, can you and obviously Felix does not do this for the average person, right? But for the for each artist, he knows that you know there's certain things that we trade. I I do a lot of trading with uh fellow artists. I I got pretty much every bitter root variant from from all the variants for the most part. The only one that uh got away from me, Chuck, he he he got he grabbed that David Mack um variant. Look at the David Mack, he got he got a hold of that one, which was fine. I got uh I got some some pretty awesome. Oh wow, that is awesome. Yeah, yeah, that was nice.

Badr Milligan 39:36

That that's the type that you just hang up on your wall, right? Let me ask this. Who uh uh who has the original art for the Bitterroot? Oh my god, why am I drawing a blank on the the spikely movie variant? I do the right thing.

Sanford Greene 39:50

Thinking I got that. Come on, man. What do you think this is, man? Come on, man. I got it right there. I got it right over here. I got a portfolio full of Bitterroot stuff, man. Uh original. Oh, dude, I snagged that out as Chris. Uh that's Chris Brunner. Uh, shout outs to him. He's so good. Super, super brilliant artists. Um, they got yeah, I got a lot. That's awesome. I got a lot of stuff.

Badr Milligan 40:15

All right. Uh I'm gonna ask a question about uh a fellow artist on Felix uh art, which uh to me, I think Felix has the best roster of artists out there, just point blank, period. Uh among them is Daniel Warren Johnson. And I know I was at San Diego Comcom, but I was not able to attend the panel where you announced Bitterroot black and white, but I did read that you gave Daniel Warren Johnson a shout out because you were like kind of like hesitant on the idea, but you know, he encouraged you, and you got to see how well the reception to do a powerbomb black and white was having. And I was like, damn, yeah, uh Bitterroots uh amazing art. I would love to see it in in black and white. I guess I just want to hear like a Daniel Warren Johnson story. Like, do you remember what was the first interaction between you and Daniel Warren Johnson? Because y'all seem like y'all are pretty close. Y'all, I mean, he shouts you out, and vice versa. I'd love seeing like the camaraderie, and that's the and I extend that to all the artists I think in Felix. You guys seem to have a really good just energy and camaraderie, but what do you what was your first interaction with Daniel Warren Johnson like?

Sanford Greene 41:17

Oh man, this it was a while ago. Actually, it might have been we we met before I joined the the the group, and he was still starting to emerge, and he was working on uh it might have been at a convention. Uh it was at a convention, might have been Hero's Con. Okay. And he was just kind of you know off, you know, at his table, you know, doing doing a uh uh a commission, and I uh came by to say what's up to a couple of other guys, and I just noticed he was there working on a commission, and I was just fascinated because he was using um he was doing that zip tone. Um at the and I'm like, that's so much labor to do at a convention, but he was doing it, he was sitting there and making that thing happen, and so I was just like, huh, this dude is all in. He's not, yeah, he's serious, he's not you know, distracted or or you know, a convention is hard. I can't, I can't do it. It's just too much for me. Um, but he was there, you know, laser focused on making that commission awesome. And the pandemic happened, and you know, we lost contact. And I started seeing his name pop up uh a little more for his commissions and stuff. And I'm like, hey, that's the same dude that was doing those, he was doing that commission, but now he's doing you know, 50 of them, and now they're like all over the place, and people are you know, the buzz started to happen. All those guys, you know, we we have a group chat and we we show each other's work, and it's so cool because it allows everyone, and we have a few other guys and and girls outside of the group that's in in the chat, and we post stuff there, and it's like you know, banger after banger after that. I can imagine you know stuff that you know stuff that you won't see until you know, I don't know, next year or something like that.

Badr Milligan 43:20

That's awesome.

Sanford Greene 43:21

We saw that we saw that chain that uh chain cottage the the chain cottage stuff, saw that stuff last year, man.

Badr Milligan 43:27

Wow, those old movies that's cool, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Sanford Greene 43:31

So we we were talking about doing uh me doing a cover. We talked earlier this year about that. After I saw what it was, I'm like, this is nuts. Because he did a cover for Bitter Root, a variant for the next movement. And I said, All right, um, my turn to do something with yours of yours. And he said, Hey, I'll let you know once something drops. And um the chain cottage came out, and I'm like, Oh my god, this is this is different right here, man. This thing is nuts. Like people getting chopped up with chainsaws. It's like, you know, it's right up his belly.

Badr Milligan 44:10

He's I feel like he's always pushing the the the boundary of what a cool comic can be. I'm having trouble finding the variant, but I'll I'll find it here later. Um, I just one that that I did. I think it's issue.

Sanford Greene 44:21

I was looking for the bitter his bitter root variant, but um Oh, that's uh issue four or five.

Badr Milligan 44:27

Next movement. Let me see if I very quick. I won't stop. Oh, is it that one?

Sanford Greene 44:31

If you can't find it, I got it right here. Man, you got well.

Badr Milligan 44:35

All right, for issue four, Maria Wolf did a cover. Michael Alred did a cover. Let me see if it's five. Is it five? Uh oh, here it is. Daniel Warren Johnson. Yep.

Sanford Greene 44:47

Yeah, dude. I'll tell you what. the very the variance that we had for next movement man was a you got a lot of heat there's a lot of heat the the the the lineup was i think even well wow it is this ian bertram i'm sorry this ian bertram cover for issue three is uh i mean it's it's ian bertram and i got the original but never damn and and is wall power if you know anything about wall power it's it's a concept that feelix came up with a few years ago about commissions that are bigger than than the standard size uh comic page they're twice the size so 12 by 18 is kind of like the normal size 11 by 17 12 by 18 but we're talking twice we're talking 18 by 24 or bigger whoa that's that's wallpower right and so um ian ian did he did his like that and then trad more turned around and did the same thing and i'm like i want give it this give it here i'll take a moment that is a i i hear wall power i think uh uh what was that in dune they call it sand power or something like now that's a that's a really good dang James Heron's okay yeah this is not the bitter root let's look at all the variant cover podcasts even though it could easily be thank you for i'll look this up later Sanford I want to get into a a uh our our next segment here I think you'll enjoy this and that is our short box friends and family segment big shout outs to Vigo for the sound effect that sounds amazing I finally have it on my board um so this is the part of the show where I shut up for a minute and I let someone else ask the question I put out a call to not only the short box nation but some close friends of mine that I I figured you would enjoy hearing.

Badr Milligan 46:33

And I gotta say Sanford I think I think this might be a record. I've never had this many voicemails submitted for a guest. So I've got four voicemails to play. We'll try to keep it quick. The first one comes from my man Ben Kingsbury, the owner of Gotham City Limit Comic Shop, who is very excited to hear you be on the show he sent in a question for you. We'll hear from him first.

Ben Kingsbury 46:52

Here we go Hey Sanford Ben Kay from Gotham City Limit a comic shop down here in sunny Jacksonville, Florida. Thanks so much for taking some time to be here today. So when I see your name on a cover, either standard or variant, doesn't matter I already know I'm ordering extra of that comic book just for walk-ins who are going to come in looking for it, who don't order it before final order cutoff. What's it like hearing that you move the needle on the ground floor of my comic shop and every comic shop around the country well I'll leave you here to answer thanks so much for what you do we literally couldn't do it without you and remember shortbox nation always take it to the limit.

Badr Milligan 47:39

Peace hey this got a great he's got a great voice you can use him for a drop oh uh trust me I I I have a I have a whole uh stash of Ben Kingsbury drops I'm just waiting to drop yeah no man but um that's funny I I'm actually looking at an email that I just got approved for this cover that that I'm gonna be doing I guess is going to get announced at New York Comic Con.

Sanford Greene 48:03

Something that I've been super excited about. So it's funny hearing about that that that question and then seeing you know the opportunity to do this this way yeah yeah and you know it it does kind of help uh to put in perspective you know just how fortunate and blessed I've been over the years to have gotten to the to the point to where you know my work is not just art on the cover. It's now starting to become let's get a Sanford Green variant type you know type thing which is really cool um and humbling and and and and uh you know I I don't take it for granted I try to do something each time that you know uh to your point that I'm not even thinking about quote unquote moving the needle it's just more of I want people to to be excited when they see it I want to be excited first yeah um and foremost. I've I've turned down opportunities recently because I didn't feel like I I could bring anything to it some big things too believe it or not um simply because I just felt like it just you know I I would be doing it just for the for the for the the check yeah yeah for the cash grab or for the you know and I'm like no it's gonna it's gonna just look weird or if it's gonna feel weird. Yeah yeah if it feels weird it it will look weird. So um I I I turn down uh some some of those things um whereas there are other things that I do and I guess this kind of segues a little bit into the um the static variant or at least the the new Titans variant with static that was exclusive to uh uh 10 stores uh black owned stores yeah like that that that is you know I I like doing stuff that really you know potentially could raise all the boats not you know for me personally just for you know for an ego stroke or whatever it's just more of here here's something that really is gonna make it about them.

Badr Milligan 50:02

Yeah man I that's a long-winded answer but no I you know what Sanford I'll give you the I'll add to to what Ben said I I think you move the needle not only I think you know in his case sales right like people are coming in they're wanting to check out the book but I think your intention the fact that you are picky about the projects you put out I think it comes across in the work because when we do get a cover like you know the the new Titans number 38 or any of the you know bitter root it feels like hey we're getting his very best because he's putting his you know what I'm saying it's like this speaks to him and I think your intention comes through and not only that but you know uh having done some more some research this week and just going through a rabbit hole of articles and stuff like that I commend you for wanting to raise all ships for being the tide that raises all ships. I mean you mentioned you know with the whole Inc Alliance variant your goal was to help you know uh their mission and their mission is is awesome right it's 10 black owned comic shops that are trying to pool resources together trying to ensure that other black owned comic shops one exist in America and two are thriving. So you know what I'm saying the fact that you contributed helped out with that. And then did I mention that you're also a professor at an art school you know what I'm saying you've but but you know what I'm saying I've I've read in interviews where you talk about you know wanting to nurture and empower the next generation of creators but specifically also black uh artists as well because that's what you needed when you were going to school so I think all of that ties in man I think I think your your nature and your intention speaks through in your artwork and I appreciate hearing that you know you're not just doing it you know you could easily just fucking do variants all day but you make them special and I think that's cool. Right. Appreciate that man yeah all right big shout outs to Ben let's move on to our next voicemail this one you know I'm not gonna mention who who who uh who sent him in I'll leave that surprise because they mentioned their name uh let's go on to our next one let me do which one I wanted let's do this one hey what's up what's up short box nation Zach here from Now or Never Comics in San Diego California and I've got a question for Sanford Green regarding some work that he did early in his career. So a lot of fans know that Sanford did a killer one shot with Jonathan Hickman working on the Doom one shot uh from a couple years ago but some of us may not know that earlier in his career Sanford did an album cover for a different Doom EMF Doom when he did the cover for Venomous Villain um back in I believe 2008 or 2009 something like that. So I wanted to ask Sanford how did you get that job working on that album cover? What was it like working with MF Doom and his team and and how was that experience for you as a guy who I know is uh obviously a comics professional who is a big fan of hip hop and is kind of embedded in the hip hop community. Thank you guys for your time. I hope you're both well take care peace. Big shout outs to Zach Norris uh once again uh one of the managers at Now or Never Comics in San Diego and he did not give himself enough credit for this but he's also the creator of the very amazing hip hop and comic zine cream comp for everything around me.

Sanford Greene 53:11

Yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah shout outs to uh to my dude there he he I got his latest um it's good edition of it and it's awesome really well put together great great design great packaging and everything man but no um it's funny um I can't even remember how I got that that it will I was at a con I think it might have been megacon that's like one of the I didn't I haven't been to megacon in close to 10 years now but yeah it was uh uh a gentleman I think who was I don't know if he was a manager because you know MF Doom's like his affairs were splintered in like 20 different directions back then and um so it was some promoter record you know uh independent record record mogul type person that um was managing doom at the time or at least helping him put out this album and he said hey you want to do this thing and I was like oh wow this is really cool but I thought it was going to be MF Doom but it was the Venomous villain persona which is still cool Victor Vaughn yeah Victor Vaughn it was still cool but you know MF Doom is obviously the that's the one the the one so I I was like oh man I wanted MF Doom when it came out when it when it came out I was like oh Venomous villain that's like you know that's almost like uh that's like Dr.

Badr Milligan 54:38

Doom you know when he doesn't have the mask on or something that's you know it's like oh okay can I say that I pride myself in being a uh a very knowledgeable comic book and hip hop head and leave it up to Zach Norris to school me. I mean he's always I feel like he's always school he's always showing me something cool so when he sent this in I'm like why'd Sanford Green wait nah I was like there's no way Sanford Green did an album cover for Doom that I'm not familiar with. And sure enough I'm looking at the cover I'm like I mean it kind of looks like his art style but I mean you know maybe it's his early one and sure enough you look on the back a very tiny font it says by Sanford Green. How many people know that you did uh uh that you did this I don't know man but I I definitely got uh I got a copy still somewhere over there on my shelf yeah you know uh something we talked about last time you were on was um that was surprising to me is that you mentioned that you don't listen to much uh music or or hip hop while you're drawing you're more of a podcast guy which I mean as a podcast guy speaks smart so right you said that you said in uh uh you know 2024 you were listening to NPR 11 o'clock comics uh off panel shout outs to my guy David Harper you were listening to word balloon and you also mentioned the short box um what what what were you listening to when you were drawing uh dark side what was on the uh the playlist or in the queue same things you know this hey i i i I don't I don't I don't switch up too quick man I I keep it pretty consistent I'm not a big guy um for for lots of changes yeah I I keep everything pretty pretty much you got your routine I got you I got my routine I mean you it's funny enough uh you know you mentioned MF Doom I definitely was thinking about Doom the other day and how much I'd really I I realized how much I really did listen to a lot of it when I was working on that and um with dark side it was uh when I was uh when I'm like walking or running or whatever I may have some music on headphones or whatever and I'm thinking about this stuff and I'm playing stuff like uh you know the you know the the mainstays the Wu Tangs and the mob deeps I mean when it when we announced this I made sure I posted the Shook One's instrumental which is probably the greatest hip hop track ever right and and I'm like what can I do?

Sanford Greene 57:04

What song can I put behind this announcement? What's the appropriate thing especially with the the character outside of Doom you know playing you know uh a mad villain as a theme song what would be Dark Side theme song the thing I thought of was Shook Ones which is you know kind of the it sounds like the Omega beam firing those that sir definitely it definitely has that omega beam fiery red yeah yeah yeah deadly kind of you know ominous yeah approach to things so yeah I'm glad you brought up the soundtrack because I well one of my questions was uh you know speaking about Ben last year he sent in a voicemail for you and he had asked what would be Dr.

Badr Milligan 57:46

Doom's like theme song and I don't know if you remember but you said uh Black Sabbath you mentioned like Black Sabbath and I forget what was the other one I think it was also like a uh um a a rock group so it sounds like if you were to give dark side a walkout theme song it'd be Shook One's does anything else come to mind?

Sanford Greene 58:04

Not not offhand because Shook One's is so it's pretty damn dominant yeah it's so it's so dominant just imagine him walk you know he doesn't walk out he kind of floats out you know he has his hands behind his his his back and he's looking all you know resilient and stab your brain with your nose bone yeah that's that's dumb that's dark side that's he would do something like that. He he he he he does a few of those acts in the book.

Badr Milligan 58:30

Oh so we're getting so we're getting a pretty so it sounds like we're because I do I will say your action sequences always feel gritty they feel like raw and like they're the characters are fighting dirty. So we're getting it sounds like we're gonna get a really good fight scene between the dark side you're gonna get as much as DC would allow you know but it's gonna be it's not it's not uh it's not gonna be uh chain cotta or whatever it is it's is it's definitely DC you know yeah but anyway you know outside DC has a long track record of some you know you mentioned we mentioned pushing the boundary with like stuff like uh uh like Chainsaw Man I feel like DC has a long history of like growing up to me DC was like it was the more I think violent comic you know they weren't like I think about like uh infinite crisis how or or identity crisis how many characters they killed off in that series so I I wouldn't be surprised if this is still a pretty gruesome uh comic okay big shout out to Zach Norris I'm gonna move on to our next voicemail we got two more for you this next one comes from a member of the short box he's a short box patroni so you know I'm I was gonna add his voicemail to this one here we go hey Sanford Brandon here I'm a huge fan of your work like you I'm from a rural town in South Carolina Johnsonville and your work has always been extra special to me for that reason.

Sanford Greene 59:50

Palmetto State represent my question is how have your roots in a rural town shaped and influenced your work as an artist oh wow um so I'm dropping I guess another exclusive I'm actually working on graphic novel memoir based on my childhood oh it's called Dirt Road is the working title based on just what he just said it's like you know growing up in the in the in the mid 80s rule the things that I was starting to get into and and and notice wasn't I was an outlier right you know you grew up in a in a small town it's like I I like comic books and and cartoons and my friends you know want to play football right you know you you fill in the blank of all the things back then that made you who you are as a teenager you know as far as like that time period right and here I am wanting to you know uh look at cartoons and go to the comic book store or at least the uh the newsstand back then and so I was I was almost uh I was like an alien to some degree but the loose idea for this this graphic novel memoir is all loosely based on that time period and it's it's gonna be fantastical but it's still based on my on my life so it's it's gonna be like never ending story meets beat street yeah yeah man never ending story but then beat street is like a a cherry on top yeah that sounds cool what type of research goes I mean you know you're saying that hey I'm basing it on my life so I mean it's like yeah you you would just like look within and and your your memory but I would imagine that relying solely on memory and I'm not calling you old in any way but just relying on you know I'm saying like how they say like the human memory you know like we don't remember things as accurately as we think they are like for this uh as as you're mapping out you know the outline and and the story like what are you doing for research are you reaching out to like family members to maybe be like hey do you remember what I was like as a kid or you got any stories? Nah man I I got a mind like a steel trap um so somewhat somewhat but um I'm joking when I say that but um I uh I I'm not really reaching out to anyone but I am taking notes when things come to mind I jot them down so that um so I won't forget them or or at least I won't uh if there's something that that I feel has uh a significance to it I could refer back to it.

Badr Milligan 1:02:29

Yeah okay I I have uh probably a hundred more questions about it but I'll wait for the actual announcement and when the book comes out because that sounds awesome. All right that was Brandon Holder. Big shout out to Brandon Holder one of the newest members of the short box Petroni family appreciate you sending that in I got one last question for you uh Sanford uh and I got a feeling you'll appreciate this one. Here we go. All right last voicemail for you.

BJ Kicks 1:02:52

How do you do? This is Peter McAllister the father. Just kidding. This is BJ Kicks from Comics Are Dope. And Sanford I've got a quick question. So you recently set the world on fire with the variant cover for New Titans issue 38 for the Inc Alliance. And I got to see the madness up close and personal. It was a really awesome day for the community. But now that we're a month removed we've seen the aftermarket sales on eBay I'm curious as to how you feel about the general response to that cover and the excitement that it has garnered for the Inc. Alliance member shops. So thanks for your time and I'm looking forward to our interview coming really soon.

Sanford Greene 1:03:32

So yeah there we go the man the myth the legend that was Brandon Jackson aka DJ Kicks of the amazing comic podcast dude um man um again you know just being a part of history uh you know the intent was solely to be uh a conduit that allows these shops to thrive. I wasn't looking for anything other than that but to see it become what it is now obviously the aftermarket you know people have brought that to my attention when we first conceived the idea when I reached out to uh to DC and then uh to my man Mike Davis his partner up there in uh Chicago with Blurred um it was a pretty for me it was just hey I'm just reaching out I want to do something I want to try to you know make something happen here that could be special and it was really those guys Mike and his partner that really galvanized the other uh retailers and said hey you know here's a really cool opportunity if you guys you know maybe we can do something together and 10 other stores or nine other stores got excited about that and then they reached back out to me and said hey dude not only are we excited but we got like nine other stores and maybe more black owned stores that that want to be a part of this and I'm like oh wow that's that's that's awesome let's see if we can get DC to really uh rally behind this thing and um that's pretty much what happened was once I saw the interest from that many uh retailers and again it's a small drop in a bucket in comparison but that was the whole point of it as well I knew that there weren't a whole lot of black owned retailers in the country and um I was like yeah well let's let's see we can kind of you know rise above yeah all of this in and sh in and recognize these folks because it is only a handful and I can only imagine you know prior to what they they didn't have they didn't have a lot of access to things and and it wasn't necessarily because of race or anything like that. It's just that I know how this thing works right yeah and and when you don't have a lot of comrades or um I use the word allies if you know you got people that know you and they know what you do. Yeah but in terms of just exposure really yeah the feeling of exposure but even more so the feeling of community I think that that part you you do tend to start to look around and you're like wait a minute um I'm the only one in the room that that you know that that that's black you know how do I how do I navigate in the in this space you navigate how you navigate but at the same time that's still a real thing it's just it's just what it is. And so I I know what that feels like from the creator side but how much more it would be from you know this this other side this retailer side ownership you know those things you know we just don't we we don't talk about it. I don't think we've I don't think there's ever been definitely no initiative has has ever done this quite this way before. But in terms of yeah we've had ownerships you know you know the milestones and I think Termitus Media and a few other you know black owned publishing and stuff like that. We've had those kind of things happen but we don't talk ever about black owners in in you know the retailer space and so I was like huh that's a there's a there's a thing right here I would like to venture into and and see what we can do. So yeah it was and and stay tuned there's you know that was a that was a big deal and and it's and it still is but um stay tuned there's some even bigger things.

Badr Milligan 1:07:40

Do you know right now what the uh give I want you to give me your best guess because BJ brought up you know the aftermarket sales of new teen tell number one the Sanford Green Inc Alliance exclusive limited which I didn't know is limited to only a thousand copies that explains why I was not able to get my hands on one. Right right do you know what the what they're going for on the second hand I got I got an idea I got an idea I'll go ahead and tell you all right I'll go ahead and tell it for the listeners we're talking well uh I'm seeing 250 so these are sold listings 250 350 260 280 350 etc etc you get the idea they're going for a pretty penny same what is that for those are unsigned and those are unsigned oh I don't even want to look at did you did you do any did you set up at a at a shop do any signing so the only time that I've had any interaction with signing or anything like that was at um earlier this uh month for uh Dragon Con.

Sanford Greene 1:08:40

It was a Labor Day Labor Day weekend in Atlanta dragon dragon con is only down the street for me in Atlanta and so um they they wanted me to come um there and and do some signing me David Walker and Chuck Brown were were there it was first time we were together in like three years which was kind of cool but you know a lot of folks came and had me sign the new Titans book and um I started thinking about it what those things are going for right now unsigned and I can only imagine and I said to you know and and there's a there were a handful of folks that were retailers that I made sure that okay this is for you in in helping with your revenue right uh I it's the one store specifically I said I'll sign all these all these books I know where they're going for here you go do what you will with them but I I also understand that there are some out there who they they you know is just is this part of the game yeah it's part of the game I hadn't seen a lot on the whatnot stuff which is kind of cool to not see there um I did one I did one or two I think on whatnot and that was pretty nuts with I just did one I did a remark on it just to because I did a whatnot stream when I was at Dragon Con. I did it for for other stuff too but that was uh and yeah it was nuts.

Badr Milligan 1:10:12

I gotta say I mean the image alone is just cool as hell let's be I mean it's static on the turntables with cyborg behind them with uh these huge speakers I mean it just it's cohesive it's cool as fuck it feels like you know something that just makes I don't know it's just dripping with cool and attitude and to know that it's you know tied to a really good initiative with the Inc Alliance um I read an article today actually about this on Anscape.com they wrote a pretty good feature about you and the whole Inc. Alliance and they talk about uh the the cover's success helped stores in the alliance grow the subscriptions customer bases and social media presence in fact the success of the first project has pushed the alliance to expand to more stores and I'm like come on that that that that is a success if you've ever seen one I mean right I was seeing it all over social media the day I was mad jealous when BJ was posting that you know like because it's his backyard I think I think he went to a shop in his backyard to get one and he put up a really dope video where you think three hours three hours away is not really his backyard but I love the commitment it's closer than I am um so yeah I I think this is awesome I'm curious I'm very excited to see what becomes of Inc. Alliance and what you guys continue to do. But yeah kudos to to the whole initiative man and the cover. Awesome. All right Samford that is all of my questions I got for you on the voicemail I maybe have one or two left on my own. I feel like I cannot let you off the hook without asking about Spider-Verse. All right when we were recording uh Across the Spider-Verse had been out for a year it was cool to learn that you had your fingerprints all over the movie with the character designs we finally got a date for Beyond the Spider-Verse the the the the the third movie the the last of the trilogy I think it comes out sometime next year in 2027 were you involved with Beyond the Spider-Ver is the plan um I'm actually working well I take that back I've actually already worked on it I actually developed um one of the major characters in the first act of the film come on man so um that I'm pretty excited about that you you almost scared me because you made it sound like they didn't wrap like they're still working on the movie I'm like how are they gonna release it next year then Sanford?

Sanford Greene 1:12:25

Are they live no no no no no trust me there's a lot of work that's being um done right now look all these things have kind of the similar production schedule where it's like you're working up to the last minute I mean every film has it especially animation there are stories of certain films being worked on as the film is in the theaters and still working on it.

Badr Milligan 1:12:48

You know they go back and edit this or whatever but the majority of it is definitely okay done obvious obviously I can't ask you too many questions about the Beyond Spider-Verse because it's not out yet but across the spider verse it's been out for well over uh two three years now so I feel like you know there is no spoilers to be shared.

Sanford Greene 1:13:07

If I was to rewatch this movie if anyone was to rewatch across the spider verse and they specifically wanted to try to identify what your contributions what should people look out for when they're re-watching Across the Spider-Verse I guess in short what did you do for Across the Spider-Verse that we should be on the lookout for uh when the comics kind of drop the chapter breaks um I did a few of those I did the especially the biggest one I did two of them like the the major ones are the two because there's a bunch of stuff like in the background you're not gonna see like when they transport between the portals and you see all these different articles of like objects and stuff like especially in Miles' room there's a comic book that I drew that's floating around in the air but the uh the two I can't remember the other one I know I did two of them but the one the last scene in the final act where they go to the the darker world where Miles is kind of a a bad guy that chapter break where the comic drops that's my art I guess that explains hearing you you know you're like I drew that that comic that's just floating in the back you know like unless you are like really watching I think it it'd be easy to miss it.

Badr Milligan 1:14:24

But hearing you say that you know you drew that that piece and you drew this I think explains why that movie has like this certain energy like just just like this chaotic energy to it that keeps you I don't know it's like always static. It's not really static but it's like always just moving. And I think it's because like it sounds like it's kind of like a collage of all these different art styles that somehow seem to mesh together. I think that probably explains it.

Sanford Greene 1:14:49

Yeah yeah I mean shout outs to at the time uh Justin Thomas and um at the time Joaquin de Santos those guys were the art directors and they definitely and Justin is still he's still there but Joaquin he's gone on to do something really really dope. Can't say what it is but he's doing something he actually came from Avatar the TV show. He he was one of the directors for the Avatar TV show and so he he's been a giant in the animation world for over a decade easily. But yeah those guys had the vision to just play with all these different styles I'll tell you the one that really was a a trip seeing the animatics for and and kind of feeling nervous about what is what it was going to look like when it was all put together was the uh Hobie Spider Punk and the way he was animated with the whole uh collage and the propaganda punk rock posters and imagery and stuff like that within his form I the animatics didn't look nothing like that it was pretty much cut and paste looks it looked like uh um you know something from uh South Park you know how South Park has the the yeah yeah you know the cutouts and um animated cutouts and that's kind of what it was and I was like oh my god this is not good I don't know what this or or at least it wasn't I just couldn't wrap my brain around what that would look like and once I saw the I'm like oh my god this thing is I want a whole movie that looks just like that you know they they really they really had an incredible vision for these these are things now that all these other studios are trying to do I I kind of coined Spider-Verse to be this generation's the matrix because what the matrix did right that whole bullet time and all that you've never seen that stuff before right and now everyone's doing it to the point to where it's not even the thing you know you can do it on your phone now right but that was the first film to ever do anything that innovative right and I feel like this is what uh the Spider-Verms animated films are are doing for animation because just everything is trying to emulate what what was uh done by by the that animation.

Badr Milligan 1:17:19

Well said I I think we sometimes throw groundbreaking out there a lot but I do feel like uh into the spider verse was such a groundbreaking film. I will never forget leaving that movie and thinking like what did I just watch but what and you know trying to wrap my mind around it but I knew I was like this is changed the game and sure enough to your point yeah I mean I I watched you know like the the in animated TMNT film that came out like my first thought in comparison and for the record that movie is awesome by the way that's a TMNT animated film is great. But it was so easy to be like oh they got the uh into the Spider-Verse you know style going on okay I see the inspiration so yeah K-pop demon uh hunters K-pop demon hunters yep yeah yeah all that stuff all right Sanford last question on this topic I know that uh uh Bitterroot announced for animated uh not animated but a live action adaptation for Regina King's company we we talked a little bit about it last time you were on I brought it up to Chuck Brown it sounds like there's not a lot of updates to share but I would be curious what is the likelihood that that we would possibly get maybe a Bitterroot animated or yeah animated show I feel like your art style is so I mean you literally work in animation you know what I'm saying just like it was made for it and as much as I'm like come on Regina King uh Ryan Cooler attached this like that's perfect but a part of me is like but an animated film would have been perfect too I mean well I guess what's the likely I guess is it a case of like never say never like would you ever have you thought about like a bit of root taking the animated approach or even like a just a movie?

Sanford Greene 1:18:55

Yeah I mean you know the moving parts man there's so many moving parts I I know at the at the end of the day we have a supportive creative team behind this stuff you know proximity media is uh Ryan Kugler's team they're behind this thing we're we're just dealing with a lot of the politics right now the way things have gone look centers came out and you know people you know were super excited about that they some people thought it was our thing I'm like no it's not and you know having to explain what that look what that was but the door shut because it was such a lightning rod uh of success it was obviously successful but Hollywood and the powers that be started getting nervous that oh no we're gonna have too many comparisons yeah not only too much comparisons it's just the the state of where things are right now socially political politically like we don't want too many of these films coming out like this or TV shows too much like this and and so there's a big struggle right now in Hollywood um for films with diversity in in them right TV and stuff like that even that is under some threat as well but definitely in the film interesting and um we're we're exploring the the avenue of well what if we just see if we can make this a TV program or TV series but right now they that there's still hope that it can still be a film.

Badr Milligan 1:20:33

I won't put it on my conspiracy theory I'll just say I think it's a damn shame that the powers that be think that only one of these can exist at the same time. I think that is a damn shame.

Sanford Greene 1:20:43

That's not a conspiracy that's just what it is it's the truth. I mean it's called what it is like they they they they get a tinfoil hat. Yeah they're like oh no like people if we if if we got one of these now now we're gonna get all these other pitches that think they got an opportunity now because the of the success of that so let's close the gap and make it harder yeah or you know I gotcha so I got you well look I I wish you guys the best of luck uh at the end of the day better root started as a comic and it will continue to be and and and let me add this part too because this is the other part that we have to really consider. Because people will say well the heck centers got made but yes centers did not have steampunk you know imagery and a whole bunch of you know creatures and stuff that would you know explode the budget that's the other big thing that Hollywood does not want to spend money especially on black and brown stories and let unless it's a Disney princess and even then even then that's gonna be a bit of a fight but they don't want to spend that money because they're just afraid of the powers that be trying to muddy it up and make it horrible and and make it hard for them in their bottom line.

Badr Milligan 1:22:08

So now I appreciate you being honest and sharing that I I wish you guys the best I know it's in good hands. Last question Sanford you've got a lot coming out right so so you obviously you've got dark side versus the world that comes out October 28th once again final order cutoff being October 5th so if you want to ensure that you get a copy of this which I mean if you heard what what we've been talking about this entire time if Sanford Green is on a cover or a book it's gonna sell out. So do yourself a favor don't cry later go ahead and go to your comic shop right now be like put me down for one of these by October 5th but you got Dark Side vs World coming October uh 28th we mentioned that uh your Ringo award winning webcomic 1000 alongside Chuck Brown shout out to Chuck Brown is coming out in physical form for the first time ever. I'm looking at the Amazon listing right now October 13th Sanford what else do you got going on that we need to be aware of can't announce it yet man can't say so you know what listeners if you want to play a fun game re listen to this episode and take a a drink a drink every time Sanford says he's got something he can't announce. I'd love hearing that though awesome we'll be on the lookout. All right uh ladies and gents this is the short box podcast and we just finished talking to Sanford Green about uh a little bit everything right we talked about his new comic Dark Side versus the world once again comes out October 28th we talked about trading art with like some of the best artists in the game among his Felix uh art peers we talked about the Inc Alliance um did I mention that he also teaches art at the Benedict College all right um doing amazing work we'll save that I had I could go down a rabbit hole with that we'll save that for next time but I'm gonna have links to Sanford's uh uh social media in the show notes and a bunch of other helpful links you know what to do just check out the show notes if you want to follow up on any of this stuff thank you so much for listening Sanford you've been great um let's make it a fourth time soon a fourth uh cameo here soon once the other stuff gets announced there we go let's uh let's do it I like it